Fun with logs!

[agentsmith988]

I finally upgraded to a real version of VCDS and can get decent logs now. I decided to do 5 pulls in 3rd gear using APR's method they request when troubleshooting. I'm trying to figure out why my car still pings like crazy when it starts to get warmer out. I'm running an early rendition of a tune from Gonzo at CTS (from back in 2013). I think it's time for a new tune. Mods are listed in my sig.

Log 1 - Boost and Fueling Diag
Log 2 - Boost and Timing Diag
Log 3 - MAF/Load Diag
Log 4 - Misfire Diag
Log 5 - Boost and Timing

The logs were done in order on a flat stretch at 1279ft MSL. Weather conditions were 1010 mbar and 88°F/31°C.

I'm about as far from an expert as you can get when it comes to interpreting these things but this is what I think I see...
- I'm running rich in the high RPMs
- Timing is retarded aggressively on log 2 and less aggressively on log 3. Does the ECM make adjustments like this every time the car is power cycled? I see this trend each time I start the car.
- I should probably get some logs with IATs (however, they usually stick within 10-15 degrees of ambient once the FMIC becomes effective)

[Human Garbage]

Log IAT and EGT. I suspect the fact you are so rich in the upper end is due to EGT fuelling (KFLBTS). Basically once you pass a set threshold on EGT the ECU activates another fueling map that dumps the gas in there to bring EGTs down, hence the 0.72 lambda (which you know is waaaayy rich)

As for timing, the ECU will adjust overall timing in response to detonation. I don't believe ignition cycling has much effect on that, but I'm no expert. I can say that those correction factors are pretty high. You are pushing the limits of what the ECU can compensate for at 10.5* (max stock is 12*). You want those CFs down about 1.5 to 3*. Either reduce ignition advance/boost or increase fuel to take care of that. Increasing fuel will only get you so far as eventually you will max your injectors or see EGTs go up from the extra fuel. Get your lambda sorted and then work on timing would be my advice there.

You look like you aren't making close to requested on your boost either. ECU is requesting pretty much max and you only get within 2-3psi of it at best. Not sure if that is hardware (boost leak) or what.

Good for you for actually logging and analyzing the data. Most people don't bother to do that and have no idea if they are leaving power on the table or being too hard on the car...

[old guy]

I'm also no tuning expert but I have looked at a substantial amount of logs when I went from my GIAC big injector file to my current F21L hybrid set up. I'll see if I can dig up some of my GIAC 1+ files since that setup is similar to what you are running. Some initial observations:

You need a new tune. Your tuning is way to aggressive at the bottom end and as a result you are losing performance. The GIAC 1+ file I ran was pretty aggressive but it came on strong later in the power band. You are getting CF's as low as 1400 RPM. That is a direct result of your timing advance and requested boost. Once the CF's start the ECM will moderate the timing advance and start throwing fuel at it to keep everything in check. If this happens low in the RPM range you will never be able to develop decent power up top.

It appears to me that your ECM is constantly pulling back from the base tuning to compensate for the overly aggressive file. I disagree with HG that the max CF's should be 1.5°→3° range. It's not as much a matter of max CF's as it is to where in the RPM range the CF's are kicking in. My GIAC file at times pulled 6° across all four cylinders but typically it wouldn't start until around 4800 RPM when I shifted from 3rd to 4th at WOT. By then I would be seeing MAF flow rates of 165→170 g/s. The highest I see on any of your logs are 148 g/s. That's around a 25 hp difference with the same hardware.

[agentsmith988]

Both of you make great points. I just ran out to grab another log with IATs/EGTs as well and it looks like the ECM indeed starts to dump fuel as EGT starts trending towards 900°C. I noticed the low flow rate from the MAF too (this time it hit 153 g/s though ).

IAT/EGT/CF/Boost Log - 81°F/27°C 1011 mbar

It's sad it's taken me this long to get around to actually digging into this tune. Better late than never, I guess. I believe it was the first B6 tune done by Gonzo (now part of GTS Performance) and it definitely shows its adolescence.

[old guy]

I'm still seeing the same trend. Too aggressive on the bottom end causing CF's as low as 1300 rpm. Ping city once you start revving a little higher. Definitely a case where less would be more. That file might actually work pretty good with some e85 :-)

By the way, are you running 93 octane?

[Human Garbage]

In retrospect and looking at your logs again, I accept OG's disagreement with what I was saying. He is correct. You don't want those sort of corrections down low. Your tune is very aggressive as he stated. I alluded to that with the max boost request (and your inability to deliver on that request). 900* is pretty close to the max you want to run for EGTs. Things start to crack and melt at 1000*

If you are serious about this, then head over to Nefmoto. No one will hold your hand, but all the information you need is there if you read. At the very least, check out ME7Logger and Nyet's ECUxPlot. Those tools will make logging/analyzing a lot easier. I don't know much, but I've never had to pay for a tune thanks to the knowledge from that site. There is a community B6 1.8t Stg 1 project in the Tuning section that serves as a great primer. Best part of DIY is that it is (relatively) free and you can tune to your exact hardware/environment.

OG makes another good point on the mass airflow readings. I pull 175-185g/s on my AWP 1.8t running 20psi (checked some logs). You are losing some serious HP with that software...

You need to get into that tune and reduce the timing/boost/BTS fuelling to start. If you aren't game try and find someone who is.

[agentsmith988]

I'm still seeing the same trend. Too aggressive on the bottom end causing CF's as low as 1300 rpm. Ping city once you start revving a little higher. Definitely a case where less would be more. That file might actually work pretty good with some e85 :-)

By the way, are you running 93 octane?

Ethanol free 91 on this tank (all that was available the other night - I'm in a small OK town for some flight training). The file was supposedly written for 91 as I rarely see anything above it. I'm thinking of trying to pull the timing back a bit with Lemmiwinks until I can convince the wife that I need to spend some money on a tune from Motoza.

HG, funny enough NefMoto is where I met Gonzo back in 2011-12. I was trying to figure stuff out back then and finally settled on having him help write a tune because the majority of everything over there seemed to be geared toward the B5 S4. If I can't convince my wife to let me take the easy route, I may just jump back into it.

[Human Garbage]

Well if the tune was written for 91 then the 0.72 Lambda kinda makes sense. 91 is crap and you have to throw a ton on the fire to do the deed. Motoza is likely your best bet for non-DIY. Good choice.

Check Nefmoto out again. There has been a lot of progress on the ME7.5 side since those days you were on. Its not all 7.1 anymore. The B6 community project is a great example. Hell, dig out your old blue KKL cable and flash the Stg 1 file posted adjusted for your injectors (KRKTE - multiply Stg. 1 KRKTE * 282 then / 386. Should be .075xx or so). You will totally get rid of your detonation issue and probably make as much power on that Stg. 1 as you are now. Tune from there.

Had to comment on the flight training! I'm a fellow aviator. ATP but don't fly much anymore,, just enough to maintain the license. I found an office to be far preferable to stand up overnights and spilt duty days :). Being a pilot is a hard life so be forewarned. That said, it is one of the most satisfying jobs if that is your passion to the exclusion of all else. I'm sure you have heard it before but it bear repeating lol. Fly safe!

[redline380]

Clicked on this thread expecting to see a trunk full of logs. Came in slightly disappointed, so I will add the logs.

Carry on.

[Human Garbage]

^ That is a big pile of logs son!

I'm thinking of Ren and Stinpy now that you brought that aspect of it up...

[agentsmith988]

Well if the tune was written for 91 then the 0.72 Lambda kinda makes sense. 91 is crap and you have to throw a ton on the fire to do the deed. Motoza is likely your best bet for non-DIY. Good choice.

Check Nefmoto out again. There has been a lot of progress on the ME7.5 side since those days you were on. Its not all 7.1 anymore. The B6 community project is a great example. Hell, dig out your old blue KKL cable and flash the Stg 1 file posted adjusted for your injectors (KRKTE - multiply Stg. 1 KRKTE * 282 then / 386. Should be .075xx or so). You will totally get rid of your detonation issue and probably make as much power on that Stg. 1 as you are now. Tune from there.

Had to comment on the flight training! I'm a fellow aviator. ATP but don't fly much anymore,, just enough to maintain the license. I found an office to be far preferable to stand up overnights and spilt duty days :). Being a pilot is a hard life so be forewarned. That said, it is one of the most satisfying jobs if that is your passion to the exclusion of all else. I'm sure you have heard it before but it bear repeating lol. Fly safe!

Guess I'll take a shot at it! The community project looks like some good reading.

And luckily a majority of my flying will be local/day sorties when I get back to UT. I feel like I found the loophole in aviation by becoming an Air Guard pilot :) I'll have my fair share of time overseas but it's definitely a bit more flexible! I've been bumming as a maintainer for about ten years, figure it's time that I start breaking them instead of fixing them!

This is all I have to offer in my collection of interweb favorites:

[Human Garbage]

Guess I'll take a shot at it! The community project looks like some good reading.

And luckily a majority of my flying will be local/day sorties when I get back to UT. I feel like I found the loophole in aviation by becoming an Air Guard pilot :) I'll have my fair share of time overseas but it's definitely a bit more flexible! I've been bumming as a maintainer for about ten years, figure it's time that I start breaking them instead of fixing them!

Air guard... Well you will be OK then! I was imagining you losing 40 lbs like I did as a flight instructor., too poor to eat One medical the Doc made me come back in a month to make sure "I wasn't a pound lighter", else he'd take my medical. Wanted to spare you that pain.

And for a non-rated guy I've done my share of wrenching. I was a survey guy in industry so downtime was anathema during high season. I can tell you that breaking them is far more fun than fixing them. Right choice bro!

[agentsmith988]

I've started working with Dave on a new tune and I'm still having issues meeting requested boost. Boost leak test showed a leaky #4 injector cup so I fixed that. I can't find any other leaks.

I'm thinking either an internally bypassing DV or a wastegate issue. I'm currently running a brand new Hyperboost DV from Griffin Motorwerke.

To test the DV, if I apply pressure to either of the main DV ports should any bypass by expected? I threw a little tester together and tried it on my 710N I was running before the Hyperboost. It passed the thumb test fine. However, when I applied pressure to either of the main ports (with my thumb on the top port), air would bypass through the valve. Is this normal without positive pressure on the top port?

[old guy]

Yes that would be normal. With your thumb on the small port all you will be doing is maintaining the ambient atmospheric pressure combined with the spring pressure. As soon as you apply pressure to one of the ports that is greater than the spring pressure the DV will open. Normally the intake manifold adds a pressure signal to the small port that would be equal to the pressure on the large port. That pressure signal added to the spring pressure is what keeps the DV closed when under boost.

[Furly]

Just saw that you had gonzo tune it.
I had helped a local b6 member who had just got a gonzo tune a couple of months ago. And the tune was awful. His car went from running flawless on stock file to having 15+ codes pop up wits the gonzo tune. Was running rich , misfiring, pretty much everything you can think of. It's always good to go through a reputable tuner with a solid track record that knows the platform. That said I hope you get a solid revision or new tune and get her running smooth .

[agentsmith988]

Just saw that you had gonzo tune it.
I had helped a local b6 member who had just got a gonzo tune a couple of months ago. And the tune was awful. His car went from running flawless on stock file to having 15+ codes pop up wits the gonzo tune. Was running rich , misfiring, pretty much everything you can think of. It's always good to go through a reputable tuner with a solid track record that knows the platform. That said I hope you get a solid revision or new tune and get her running smooth .

I couldn't agree more. That's why I've started working with Dave at Motoza. I'm still on his initial flash trying to track down the reason for the slow onset/underboost.

Yes that would be normal. With your thumb on the small port all you will be doing is maintaining the ambient atmospheric pressure combined with the spring pressure. As soon as you apply pressure to one of the ports that is greater than the spring pressure the DV will open. Normally the intake manifold adds a pressure signal to the small port that would be equal to the pressure on the large port. That pressure signal added to the spring pressure is what keeps the DV closed when under boost.

Well, all I can guess is that the wastegate isn't doing its job, or there is some turbine/internal damage. I get some turbo noise on cold starts, but maybe it's worse than it sounds. I tried clamping the N75-WG line and the boost came on/peaked in the exact same manor. Granted, it was just with a pair of vice grips... none of the local shops carried the hose pinchers I've seen you mention in other threads.

The one last thing I do remember from when I was initially working with Gonzo... in temps below freezing, I would actually meet the requested 2500mbar in 5th and 6th gear. I'm thinking WG more and more.

[agentsmith988]

Update: Installed my FT setup and have been working with Dave to try and get my car in working order. However, I haven't been able to figure out why in high RPMs boost starts to fluctuate and it misfires like crazy. Specifically, when passing 5-6k RPM the car begins to overboost and you can see the throttle plate pulled back to get the boost under control. Once it gets under control the plate opens back up and the cycle repeats itself. Here's a quick snapshot of a 3rd gear log.

From what I can see in the logs:
- N75 duty cycle increases at for some reason at high RPM
- Overboost condition occurs after N75 duty cycle increases
- ECU closes the throttle plate to get the boost under control
- N75 duty cycle appears to remain too high and overboost condition occurs again
- Cycle repeats itself
- Misfire party

What I've done:
- Checked for leaks over and over
- Changed N75
- A round of BG44k
- New BKR7EIX's at .028
- Tried another set of coil packs
- Swapped plugs/coils around - misfires still only occur in cylinder 1 and 4
- New fuel filter from ECS - should I throw an OEM one in?
- Seafoam via intake manifold and gas tank
- Cleaned MAF, swapped out with a spare MAF, ran with MAF disconnected - all no change
- Checked compression (130 on all cylinders, Autozone loaner tool - guessing it's just a crappy gauge)

What I'm thinking:
- Possible dying fuel pump?
- Bad coil pack wiring harness? (even though I can't find any visual damage)
- Bad injectors? (installed with the FT a few months ago)
- Bad check valve somewhere in the vac system?
- N75-WG line is too big (currently have a hose on there with an ID of ~6-7mm)
- Something is still wonky with the tune maps

Any thoughts from anyone would be much appreciated!

[ozMatt]

Couple of other quick things to check would be:
- Injector wire harness (My coil pack harness seems to be fine, but I've had to repair my injector harness) Also make sure the plugs are clean on both harnesses.
- Grounding points: You have one on the valve cover between coils 1&2, and there is another one on the false firewall next to the coolant tank. Just make sure these are clean and tight.

Probably won't fix the problem but they're super easy to check and at least you've ruled them out.

***My thinking is there might be a high resistance here that is not noticeable at low RPM but will manifest when you get on it.

[agentsmith988]

Couple of other quick things to check would be:
- Injector wire harness (My coil pack harness seems to be fine, but I've had to repair my injector harness) Also make sure the plugs are clean on both harnesses.
- Grounding points: You have one on the valve cover between coils 1&2, and there is another one on the false firewall next to the coolant tank. Just make sure these are clean and tight.

Probably won't fix the problem but they're super easy to check and at least you've ruled them out.

***My thinking is there might be a high resistance here that is not noticeable at low RPM but will manifest when you get on it.

I think I also remember reading that the EV14 adapters have been problematic for some. I got as much dielectric grease (from the small pack that was included in the FT kit) in the adapters/harnesses as I could when I installed them but maybe another round would help.

I'll take a close look at both of the harnesses and grounding points tomorrow when I get a chance.