DIY: Motor work, Timing tensioner or anything with the motor and front end

[Sharper_Image]

Btw the pictures i posted was all taken this morning this is my 3rd timing check since the rebuild.

[Spawne32]

It’s not *obviously* keyed. It’s keyed with a flat, but it’s not obvious like more traditional woodruff keys. All to save a couple dozen millimeters in package length.

Yeh your right in that sense, i should have been clear on that, I was a couple teeth off when I did mine not realizing that it had slipped, and when I went to crank the motor it wouldnt start. I went back and checked the timing again the way hes doing, spot on, wasnt until I pulled it all back apart did I realize what happened. When I had rotated the engine to check to make sure everything was good, like I would normally do on any other timing job, the sprocket slipped.

[Sharper_Image]

Yeh your right in that sense, i should have been clear on that, I was a couple teeth off when I did mine not realizing that it had slipped, and when I went to crank the motor it wouldnt start. I went back and checked the timing again the way hes doing, spot on, wasnt until I pulled it all back apart did I realize what happened. When I had rotated the engine to check to make sure everything was good, like I would normally do on any other timing job, the sprocket slipped.

If it did indeed slipped, i have a feeling it probably happened when i removed the crank bolt to remove the plastic spacer and installed the crank pulley. Is there a way to lock the crank??

[Charles.waite]

No, but if the cams are locked and there isn’t slack elsewhere in the chain, there shouldn’t really be any reason for the chain to move. If the cams weren’t locked then it could definitely have moved.

[Theiceman]

Could it move enough to cause only a p0088 and no other issues ? Would it not be easier to just put a pressure gauge on the fuel line and compare it to spec?

And you have checked all the fuel lines to make sure there is no kink right ?


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[Sharper_Image]

Could it move enough to cause only a p0088 and no other issues ? Would it not be easier to just put a pressure gauge on the fuel line and compare it to spec?

And you have checked all the fuel lines to make sure there is no kink right ?


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Yeah I've checked the fuel lines and everything looks good, I've pretty much done everything besides double checking the crank sprocket, since I'm already here i might as well man up and dive right in. Ill keep everyone updated, this reminds me i gotta find my timing lock kit its been 2 years lol.

[Kolbenringe]

If it did indeed slipped, i have a feeling it probably happened when i removed the crank bolt to remove the plastic spacer and installed the crank pulley. Is there a way to lock the crank??

Audi/VW actually changed the tool and this is why one now sees a giant wing+looking tool to lock the crank. IMO, if you oil the donut, it lessens the chances

[Chillaxin]

I removed the front bumper and headlights, went to buy 2 extra long bolts for the crash bar. Replace the top bolt of crash bar with the extra long bolt (both sides) removed bottom crash bar bolts, disconnect intercooler, electrical harness, and the tiny coolant line from radiator to overflow tank. After all that the front assembly should slide forward to give you enough space to work on.

Do the extra work to remove the front carrier (drain/disconnect radiator, remove a/c coil and place out of the way). When I did mine I wished that I had open access to the front of the motor for cleaning gasket surfaces and not needing to get up and lay down many times to tighten bolts or double-checking chain/sprocket positions with a mirror.

[Sharper_Image]

Do the extra work to remove the front carrier (drain/disconnect radiator, remove a/c coil and place out of the way). When I did mine I wished that I had open access to the front of the motor for cleaning gasket surfaces and not needing to get up and lay down many times to tighten bolts or double-checking chain/sprocket positions with a mirror.

Way ahead of ya lol. after a removed everything i was able to get a closer look at the crank pulley and it looks like the mark on the pulley is not aligned with the mark on the timing cover. my camera ran out of space and i ran out of time, but tomorrow i'm going to take more pics.

[Kolbenringe]

I hope you found the issue. It's an easy fix and worth just a new gear, bolt, and timing cover.

[Charles.waite]

Way ahead of ya lol. after a removed everything i was able to get a closer look at the crank pulley and it looks like the mark on the pulley is not aligned with the mark on the timing cover. my camera ran out of space and i ran out of time, but tomorrow i'm going to take more pics.

After you do that, you might want to consider fixing the suspension of your B7. It’s broken...

[Theiceman]

Oh that sounds encouraging. Hopefully you didnt mash up the end of the crank if it is wrong. I think the crank is hardened so hopefully worse case is a new crank sprocket.

I wonder if after getting the cover off and releasing tensioners if you will be able to move it just what you need by loosening bolt on spacer, turning and feeling it drop into place. Might save you retiming

The only thing confusing me is you had dial gauges showing you at tdc did you not ? That is the most accurate method and your cams looked perfect

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[Sharper_Image]

I hope you found the issue.* It's an easy fix and worth just a new gear, bolt, and timing cover.

Fingers crossed.

After you do that, you might want to consider fixing the suspension of your B7. It’s broken...

Idk it goes up and down on its own

Oh that sounds encouraging. Hopefully you didnt mash up the end of the crank if it is wrong. I think the* crank is hardened so hopefully worse case is a new crank sprocket.

I wonder if after getting the cover off and releasing tensioners if you will be able to move it just what you need by loosening bolt on spacer, turning and feeling it drop into place. Might save you retiming

The only thing* confusing me is you had dial gauges showing you at tdc did you not ? That is the most accurate method and your cams looked perfect

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Yea i did use a dial guage to find TDC,* and i did notice after i removed the front end i was able to get a closer look at the crank pulley and the marking was a hair off. Tomorrow morning I'll check it again with the dial guage.

[Kolbenringe]

Just as a related aside regarding the main gear:

I've mentioned this before in this forum and others that many remove and tighten the timing gear using an impact wrench. I will go with removal being ok, ONLY if you remove the gear and examine it to make sure it's still on right and not damaged. During the replacement of the components (and there is one video on youtube showing exactly this), do NOT put the donut tool on using an impact wrench. I think this or shocking the bolt too much with a ratchet is likely causing these timing issues and damage to that fake keyway. Go gentle, it doesn't take that much torque to keep everything in place. Also oil the donut tool on the bolt side so the bolt slips on it rather than turning before some clamping torque is achieved. Donut tools are available in composite and metal. I don't know which is better.

Since then, Audi made a winged tool that has an insert designed to prevent shifting of the gear.

Overall, tremendously bad design. Another case of Audi's disasterous, basketcase engineering and a perfect display of how the Germans are now the Italians in terms of basketcase automotive engineering.

Go to 7:27 for that wing tool:

[Sharper_Image]

Alright guys, i just need a second opinion before i continue. So now that i have full access to the front of the engine i decided to check the timing again, i used the dial gauge to find TDC, i rotated the crank back and forth until i was confident enough that its at absolute TDC, after that i went ahead and checked the marking on the pulley and it is dead on with the marking on the timing cover (picture below). So my question is lets say that the sprocket did slipped wouldn't the marking on the pulley be miss align just a tad bit? if i rotate the crank just a bit to move the marking on the pulley a hair above the timing cover marking the piston will start to go down, vice versa rotating the other way around. Or this change is so minute that i wouldn't be able to tell just by the markings.

[Theiceman]

yup as i suspected , that timing is bang on and there is nothing wrong with it. now since you did that, have a quick measure of your cam correlation to each other , if thats in spec or even within 1 mm, this has NOTHING to do with your issue.

[Sharper_Image]

yup as i suspected , that timing is bang on and there is nothing wrong with it. now since you did that have a quick measure of your cam correlation to each other , if thats in spec or even within 1 mm this has NOTHING to do with your issue.

Just checked the cam marks and i came with the same results as the last time. 124.5mm from exhaust to intake and 64mm from cam bridge to intake cam mark.

[Theiceman]

yup your timing is dead nuts on based on the info you provided and your pics.

[Sharper_Image]

yup your timing is dead nuts on based on the info you provided and your pics.

Back to square one lol

[Theiceman]

s when you did your timing , is that all you did ? took the front off like in your pic , do chains and put it back on ? were you around the hpfp at all ?

how long was your car idle for ? . i have heard when HPFP goes bad the pressure actually goes high , although i have never experienced it , other may chime in. i would definitely compare fuel pressure to spec . if it shows in VCDS i will compare to mine if you like.

[Sharper_Image]

The engine was pulled out and rebuilt. Chain tensioner give up bent all the valve's and damaged piston #3, head was sent to machine shop to get rebuild, all piston was replaced i decided to do IE rods as i was already in there, Pistons i used was Mahle pistons. After everything came back from the machine shop i reassembled everything fired up the car, cleared any codes and let it idle was a bit. P0088 came on. Fast forward a little had the car put together cleared the code and took it out for a drive after 5 to 10 miles p0088 would pop up. Replaced fuel rail sensor and same thing, replaced HPFP same thing, replaced injectors same thing. Checked and rechecked timing same thing. Ended up just accepting it and drove it like that for about 2 years switching it up between cars drive it for a month parked it for a month. Sometimes when i cleared the code it'll take about 1 day to come back on. I notice when i let it sit for a long period I'll start it up with no CEL then after driving a few miles p0088 back on.

[Theiceman]

The engine was pulled out and rebuilt. Chain tensioner give up bent all the valve's and damaged piston #3, head was sent to machine shop to get rebuild, all piston was replaced i decided to do IE rods as i was already in there, Pistons i used was Mahle pistons. After everything came back from the machine shop i reassembled everything fired up the car, cleared any codes and let it idle was a bit. P0088 came on. Fast forward a little had the car put together cleared the code and took it out for a drive after 5 to 10 miles p0088 would pop up. Replaced fuel rail sensor and same thing, replaced HPFP same thing, replaced injectors same thing. Checked and rechecked timing same thing. Ended up just accepting it and drove it like that for about 2 years switching it up between cars drive it for a month parked it for a month. Sometimes when i cleared the code it'll take about 1 day to come back on. I notice when i let it sit for a long period I'll start it up with no CEL then after driving a few miles p0088 back on.

I have to think about this one. That is all the exact work I did to my car. No issues before the tensioner gave out I'm thinking right?

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[Kolbenringe]

Be absolutely sure the return is clear, not kinked, doesn't have debris in it on either end, collapsing, etc.

p0088 in these engines is usually any of these:
-out of phase cam (checked)
-HPFP (changed, but hopefully the new one isn't bad, too)
-Regulator(S).
-Return blocked
-Injectors (checked)

[Sharper_Image]

I have to think about this one. That is all the exact work I did to my car. No issues* before the tensioner gave out I'm thinking right?*

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No issue prior to the tensioner failing

Be absolutely sure the return is clear, not kinked, doesn't have debris in it on either end, collapsing, etc.

p0088 in these engines is usually any of these:
-out of phase cam (checked)
-HPFP (changed, but hopefully the new one isn't bad, too)
-Regulator(S).*
-Return blocked
-Injectors (checked)

I'll check the fuel lines again tomorrow morning

[Sharper_Image]

Just curious where is the return line? All i see is the supply line to the hpfp and from the hpfp to fuel rail.

[Kolbenringe]

Just curious where is the return line? All i see is the supply line to the hpfp and from the hpfp to fuel rail.

Before the HPFP returning to the tank:

https://nemigaparts.com/cat_spares/e...a4/736/201290/

Since you pulled the motor, it could be possible that either debris got into a line, or something got kinked. Since you're trying to get everything, then perhaps make sure all the lines are clear and rule them out. Make sure there's no damage to the hard fuel lines, which could happen fairly easily while pulling a motor. Since it's a couple years off and you already threw lots of parts at the problem, you're stuck doing this dirty work to start from the ground-up. I would also test the actual fuel pressures. I keep thinking how much it would suck that your replacement pump is also defective.

[Sharper_Image]

I went to look for the return line and this was all i found.



RED: looks like the supply fuel line to the HPFP.
Green: looks like it goes to a vacuum check valve then to the intake manifold and turbo.
Yellow: looks like it goes to the vacuum pump that sits behind the Cylinder head.

These were the only Lines i see.

[Sharper_Image]

Alright guys, right now im just waiting on gaskets and seals to come in before i could put everything back together but in the mean time i wanted to inspect the HPFP and run compressed air through the fuel lines in case any debris got in there while i had the engine out.

Circle in red any of these suppose to be moving parts?


Line looks good no kinks.


Looks like a check valve on the fuel line that connects the hard line from under the chassis to the HPFP i poked it and it seems to be moving freely is this even necessary?

[khj677turbo]

Need some help (again).

Had this all buttoned up but decided to order a new timing cover after reinstalling my old one I noticed a small leak. So had a friend help me loosen the crankshaft bolt. Set to TDC, and rotated until I felt everything loosen up. Pulley is now loose but the bolt is not. Furthermore, when I rotate the crank, my cams do not move.... I honestly cannot believe this.
So trying to figure out how to proceed. When I installed the new chain/hardware, I rotated multiple times and everything was spot on. Even did a carbon clean (so rotated the crank to close valves) and the coolant pump (was leaking. Its all been a none issue.

1. Im not sure how to get the bolt out so i can remove the pulley and the cover and inspect.
2. Could my chain have slipped off? Maybe I did not engage the tensioner hard enough and the force required to loosen the crank did me in?
3. I'm going to have a timing issue now, my cams are at TDC, both markings in perfect place, but the crank has spun, not sure how to realign. Is it as simple as resetting the chain on the crank markings? How do I know what cycle the cams are on?

fckn a guys.

[Kolbenringe]

Don't start the engine and if you turn the crank, stop the moment you feel hard, mechanical resistance.

I have no idea what was done from your description- if the crank pulley is damaged/outer ring debonded from the inner, or what. You need to get the bolt off somehow and open everything up and do the job again.

No idea how you loosened the bolt and one could speculate numerous things, such as the crank and or main timing gear not having been correctly mounted and then the bolt tightened. Be prepared to install a new main timing gear if it has been damaged. If you used loctite on the crank bolt, that could be a problem, too, particularly if red. you'll likely have to use an impact gun to get the bolt off if it's really like you're saying. It might be time to take the car to a shop and have them do the job properly.

The fact is you have external timing marks and it should also be very obvious there, too. Remove the upper timing chain cover and see what's up.

I keep reading what you wrote and I don't really know what you did and HOW you did it. So speculating is just that. If you can't figure out what happened enough to describe it properly, we can't, either. You need to pull it all apart. Maybe it's time to tap out and avoid destroying the engine or damaging stuff even further.

[khj677turbo]

Don't start the engine and if you turn the crank, stop the moment you feel hard, mechanical resistance.

I have no idea what was done from your description- if the crank pulley is damaged/outer ring debonded from the inner, or what. You need to get the bolt off somehow and open everything up and do the job again.

No idea how you loosened the bolt and one could speculate numerous things, such as the crank and or main timing gear not having been correctly mounted and then the bolt tightened. Be prepared to install a new main timing gear if it has been damaged. If you used loctite on the crank bolt, that could be a problem, too, particularly if red. you'll likely have to use an impact gun to get the bolt off if it's really like you're saying. It might be time to take the car to a shop and have them do the job properly.

The fact is you have external timing marks and it should also be very obvious there, too. Remove the upper timing chain cover and see what's up.

I keep reading what you wrote and I don't really know what you did and HOW you did it. So speculating is just that. If you can't figure out what happened enough to describe it properly, we can't, either. You need to pull it all apart. Maybe it's time to tap out and avoid destroying the engine or damaging stuff even further.

The initial job was replacing all of the chain and chain guide hardware. I reinstalled everything including a new Fluidampr pulley and noticed a small leak from the lower timing cover. I ran into the described issue backtracking to replace the old lower timing cover with a new one. To your point, I did use red loctite on the new crank bolt, so that is probably the issue.

No mechanical resistance. Before I attempted to remove the pulley, I put the car in TDC. So both cams are sitting with the markings at there 1130/1230 positions (confirmed with upper cover off). I used the pulley holding tool and a breaker bar on the pulley and crank bolt with the help of a friend to loosen crank bolt.

I cant tell if the new crank pulley is damaged, it does not feel damaged when i try to rotate and realign on the main gear.

I agree completely that I need to open it up and see what is going on. However with how the pulley is moving around I cant seem to lock it enough to hold the crank and break the bolt.

As far as taking it to the shop, the entire front of the car is off at this point, its not out of the question just not convenient.

[Theiceman]

okay i know exactly what happened...
first thing is let this be a lesson to all of thois who think red locktight is the way to go ..

blue you remove with tools, red you remove with heat. that locktight needs to be melted so you need some heat on that bolt.

you backed off the bolt and it jammed due to the loctite . in your efforts to get it off the crank, the chain gear popped off the crank and released the cams, balance shafts and oil pump allowing them to all move freely from the crank.

your objective now is to lock the crank, get heat on that crank bolt and get it out.. you will of course melt the oring on the crank bolt and they are one use only so you will need another.

The danger of course now is any reefing of that crank and you will hit a valve as it is all out of time.

there are things you can do but you have to make some decisions and may need to get inventive.

the obvious best solution is to pull out the engine., lock the crank at the the flywheel, put the torch on the bolt and she is out. this obviously is not ideal ..

some other options you could consider...

1. There is an access port under the car on the transmission that is used to release the bolts that fasten the flywheel to the flax plate. on a 4 cyl only 3 of the bolt holes are used, the other three are when bolting to a 6 cyl. if you could fab up a tool that goes in that access port and bolts to one of those flywheel bolt holes and hold it or bolt it somewhere it might hold the crank enough that you can get that bolt out with heat.
2. You could try compressing your chain tensioner through access port on the lower cover and securing it, then remove the balance shaft tensioner for the balance shafts. this could POSSIBLY give you enough slack that you can reposition it back to where it is supposed to be. This may or may not work and could be very time consuming .
3. you could use a combination of your cam marks for the cams. and a dial gauge on cylinder one( through spark plug hole ) to tell you where TDC is. this should get you very close. THEN you would have to release tension on all your chains to give you any chance of feeling for that keyway ... and that is only to get back to the begining so you can get heat on that bolt and try it again. you would have to find it , then when you are confident , tighten everything back up. then hold your pulley agin with the correct tool. hit the bolt with your map gas, to heat it up to melt the locktight. then see if you can remove bolt.

these are just ideas, no guarentees of course.

[khj677turbo]

okay i know exactly what happened...
first thing is let this be a lesson to all of thois who think red locktight is the way to go ..

blue you remove with tools, red you remove with heat. that locktight needs to be melted so you need some heat on that bolt.

you backed off the bolt and it jammed due to the loctite . in your efforts to get it off the crank, the chain gear popped off the crank and released the cams, balance shafts and oil pump allowing them to all move freely from the crank.

your objective now is to lock the crank, get heat on that crank bolt and get it out.. you will of course melt the oring on the crank bolt and they are one use only so you will need another.

The danger of course now is any reefing of that crank and you will hit a valve as it is all out of time.

there are things you can do but you have to make some decisions and may need to get inventive.

the obvious best solution is to pull out the engine., lock the crank at the the flywheel, put the torch on the bolt and she is out. this obviously is not ideal ..

some other options you could consider...

1. There is an access port under the car on the transmission that is used to release the bolts that fasten the flywheel to the flax plate. on a 4 cyl only 3 of the bolt holes are used, the other three are when bolting to a 6 cyl. if you could fab up a tool that goes in that access port and bolts to one of those flywheel bolt holes and hold it or bolt it somewhere it might hold the crank enough that you can get that bolt out with heat.
2. You could try compressing your chain tensioner through access port on the lower cover and securing it, then remove the balance shaft tensioner for the balance shafts. this could POSSIBLY give you enough slack that you can reposition it back to where it is supposed to be. This may or may not work and could be very time consuming .
3. you could use a combination of your cam marks for the cams. and a dial gauge on cylinder one( through spark plug hole ) to tell you where TDC is. this should get you very close. THEN you would have to release tension on all your chains to give you any chance of feeling for that keyway ... and that is only to get back to the begining so you can get heat on that bolt and try it again. you would have to find it , then when you are confident , tighten everything back up. then hold your pulley agin with the correct tool. hit the bolt with your map gas, to heat it up to melt the locktight. then see if you can remove bolt.

these are just ideas, no guarentees of course.

Lesson learned for sure. I thought I was doing the right thing by picking up the red loctite. Atleast based on the torque specs. I realize now that I was ignorant.

Everything you are saying makes logical sense. I do have to think about options 2 and 3 a bit, and look at some diagrams to understand how this would apply. I am at the point now where I want to fully understand the steps forward, and then call a mobile mechanic to help with getting back to square one here. I realize im well beyond logical step by step repair at this point.

Really, really appreciate the response.

[Charles.waite]

Yea, torque to yield bolts don’t need threadlocker in general.

[khj677turbo]

Yea, torque to yield bolts don’t need threadlocker in general.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIbFLFeTu2Y

Minute 22:30 they put red loctite on the bolt.
As they say, DIY at your own discretion.

[Kolbenringe]

Yea, torque to yield bolts don’t need threadlocker in general.

They don't, but factories still use it when they really don't want the bolt coming out. Audi in the past also used to use red loctite on crank bolts like the 5 cylinder engines, which made it so shops would often weld 5 feet of pipe to the 27mm socket to get it off. I don't know when they stopped, but I had no issues removing the bolt on my later cars. The early engines were nighmares. On mine, I used loctite blue. It definitely had loctite blue on the bolt that was removed and I had a stage 1 fix before I bought the car.

[Charles.waite]

Man that’s not great advice right there. Especially red threadlocker.

I mean, sure, if you are confident you’re going to do it right and don’t ever want to remove the bolt again without going through some major shenanigans with a torch, sure throw some red threadlocker on there.

But torque to yield bolts don’t need locking additives if you torque them properly and don’t reuse them. Eh, what can you do...

[Theiceman]

Man that’s not great advice right there. Especially red threadlocker.

I mean, sure, if you are confident you’re going to do it right and don’t ever want to remove the bolt again without going through some major shenanigans with a torch, sure throw some red threadlocker on there.

But torque to yield bolts don’t need locking additives if you torque them properly and don’t reuse them. Eh, what can you do...

honestly Charles i cant remember if that one is TTY. regardless i would never put red in that location. the only thing that makes me think it is not TTY is because it has a rubber oring in it you are supposed to oil in the head. ..

[Kolbenringe]

It's TTY.

[Charles.waite]

It's TTY.

Yup.

Crank bolts are almost always TTY.