Brakes and Rotors Need Replaced at 10k miles?

[Winterk80]

I went to the track the other day, came back the brakes were squeaking a little the last second when you stop but working and stopping fine.

I took my RS7 into audi and they are telling the front brakes are toast and the rotators are "lipped" needing replaced as well. That the track toasted them and it would cost $2800 to repair. The track I went to has a number of turns in it so I was braking quite a bit, but I only did four - 15 minute laps sessions driving around the track, and this is supposed to be a sports car. For goodness sake the car even has a track lap counter built into the car. Additionally the owner before me had new pads put on at 9k when I bought the car, and I had the brake fluid changed out the day before the track so I know everything was up to spec.

What are you guys thoughts. First is this bs? Secondly, if it's not bs, should I be fighting this with audi, shouldn't a car with a lap counter be able to handle driving around a track!?

[hubris]

I have not driven an S or RS car at the track... however IMO expect to replace pads much more frequently if you're tracking the car. That isn't exclusive to Audis either, however I would think that given the sheer size and weight of these vehicles, the pads take a beating under heavy load. It's not 10k miles for your brakes, it's 10k miles of normal driving (which is about 1/4 - 1/2 the life of these pads depending on your normal driving style) plus a track day, which is brutal on the braking system. And then there is the fact to contend with that they were never properly burnished for track usage - not sure if that makes a difference.

If you want to delay the repair you might consider how much thickness is actually left on the pads. Were you given that information? Is it front and rears or front only?

[Winterk80]

Thanks for the reply. Pads were replaced at 9k, 1k before the track so they were new pretty much. I'm not worried about replacing the pads, the rotators is my main concern, and the main cost is, the front rotators. They said those rotors have a lip and they want to replace them.

[jrsAudiA6]

I went to the track the other day, came back the brakes were squeaking a little the last second when you stop but working and stopping fine.

I took my RS7 into audi and they are telling the front brakes are toast and the rotators are "lipped" needing replaced as well. That the track toasted them and it would cost $2800 to repair. The track I went to has a number of turns in it so I was braking quite a bit, but I only did four - 15 minute laps sessions driving around the track, and this is supposed to be a sports car. For goodness sake the car even has a track lap counter built into the car. Additionally the owner before me had new pads put on at 9k when I bought the car, and I had the brake fluid changed out the day before the track so I know everything was up to spec.

What are you guys thoughts. First is this bs? Secondly, if it's not bs, should I be fighting this with audi, shouldn't a car with a lap counter be able to handle driving around a track!?

Just because there is a lip on the rotors does not mean they need to be replaced. Make sure they are within the thickness spec. Not sure what that is for the RS7 but usually the thickness is allowed to decrease by 2mm from the original value. Come to think of it you have the wave design rotors so I would questioned the lipping claim. Have them show you the lip or inspect them yourself. Your pads should be replaced if there is 4mm or less remaining.

P.S.: Ok, just looked up your rotors and the OEM are 390x36 mm so the minimum thickness is allowed to fall to 34mm. That is simple measurement to perform if you have a micrometer or caliper.

[Serpent]

Not surprised, RS7 is a heavy car that eats brakes. Kiku upgraded to CC because the regular brakes would be done after a track day or two - but don't quote me on that, its been so long I forget exacts.

[Winterk80]

Just because there is a lip on the rotors does not mean they need to be replaced. Make sure they are within the thickness spec. Not sure what that is for the RS7 but usually the thickness is allowed to decrease by 2mm from the original value. Come to think of it you have the wave design rotors so I would questioned the lipping claim. Have them show you the lip or inspect them yourself. Your pads should be replaced if there is 4mm or less remaining.

P.S.: Ok, just looked up your rotors and the OEM are 390x36 mm so the minimum thickness is allowed to fall to 34mm. That is simple measurement to perform if you have a micrometer or caliper.

Thanks very helpful! Wave design rotor shouldn't lip? How do I explain that to the tech what's the reason behind that ? I speculate they are saying they are lipped because the tips of the rotors turned a bit red/rust colored after track day from breaking. I am starting to question if they measured them like you said

[hubris]

Thanks very helpful! Wave design rotor shouldn't lip? How do I explain that to the tech what's the reason behind that ? I speculate they are saying they are lipped because the tips of the rotors turned a bit red/rust colored after track day from breaking. I am starting to question if they measured them like you said

Ahh I misunderstood, I thought you put 10k miles more on after the original replacement at 9k. I am sure you are on the hook for pads AND rotors which is why I inquired about pad life. To my knowledge Audi strongly recommends replacing pads if rotors are being done.

It is literally a lip that you can check with your fingers along the edge of the rotor, go run your finger over it. Your hands will get dirty. All rotors have some slight lipping because the brake pad doesn't exceed the edge of the rotor. You MIGHT be able to get a small micrometer in there without even taking the wheel off but either way it's a simple measurement, as jrs said I would check the number.

[dannybear]

This is a standard dealer statement for them to make money. Change rotors when you change pads...totally not necessary. The squel is due to the pads working beyond their ideal temps so now they will squel on the road.
I have tracked on a very hard braking track numerous times and the stock pads perform very well (for road pads). However if you plan on tracking more regularly I suggest buy dedicated track pads (front only is fine) and R spec tyres on spare rims. It takes 1hr to change over before a track day.
Road tyres may not wear out on a track day but the block edges get worn off so they will never perform the same again.

Buy proper track pads in the same compound as race cars (don't go half hearted with semi track pads) It's the best thing I ever did. It might be a heavy car but the brakes are great. 230km/hr to 70km/hr stops are cool.
With regards to rotors, my rotors have lasted 40,000kms and 6 track days and still going (even with using race pads). A small lip on a rotor makes no difference to its performance. The only critical factor is its thickness as thinner rotors can't disperse heat as well.

[Jeris5]

Its hard to say without seeing it why you have noise but the rotors have 10k on them and even though that is not much, obviously they do see a workout since it is a performance car. On these cars it's usually not a good idea to just throw pads on it and call it a day. If you just swap pads you can get noise or vibration after a while since the old pads have left materials embedded in the rotors which you can't really see. In your case you also have a lip which will work it's way into the new pads and can potentially cause noise. So it's a good idea to have the rotors resurfaced or replaced. Obviously machining the rotors will make them thinner and can take them under spec or increase the chances of warping. That's a sick car you got there and even though dealers can be tricky it sounds like a good idea to replace it all or just upgrade it yourself at home with better stuff. I would just order upgraded pads and rotors and get it done at home or elsewhere cheaper.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

[dannybear]

A lip is tge result of where the rotor is not touched by pads vs. where they wear. As such a new identical pad will not touch the lip area. If you replace the pads with the same pad, there is little/no issue with bedding. Machining the rotor will likely be cosmetic (getting rid of the lip the pads don't touch) assuming the rotor is not warped which is unlikely.
Sure new pads and rotors are better like a new engine is better rather than an oil change but what real benefit will it bring.

[Xtek]

12k is the warranty for wear items. You should be able to get them replaced under warranty.

[Winterk80]

Thanks All I went to the dealership and asked them to pull it on the lift and for the tech to show me. So once I was talking to the tech and not the sales person. He said the pads are ok but still have a few mm before needing changed. He said the lip is normal all rotors have them as you said (service advisor was saying this was the issue) However he did say I had "heat spots" he showed me, from hard braking he said. He also said I could do a new pair of pads without getting new rotors but over time braking performance will decline. VERY different story from what the service adviser told me... Tech seemed to think it was unlikely one 4 15 minute sessions would cause it but he said it depended on braking patterns.

So apparently I've got some heat spots and not lipping, I've been reading around the forum and elsewhere about the heat spots. I suspect that's what's causing the noise at the end of the stop braking. They are kind of cosmetically ugly too. Anyone have success on getting rid of heat spots?

JRs: I did ask for the thickness spec, and min thickness measurement, thanks for that. Definitely disarmed the service adviser as you said!

Danny: What race pads do you use on track days? Can you confirm if you switch to race pads does this help eliminate future "hot spots" from developing in the future? Also at the track what tire are you running if you don't mind?

Jerri: They told me they won't resurface them and cannot due to the rotor design. I might take it to a tire place though and see what they say. What better stuff are you referring to? Front brakes on the RS7 are pretty massive, is there an upgrade you'd recommend?

Xtek: Thanks, how would I make a claim on that? Dealership said brakes and rotors are all on the owner regardless...

[jrsAudiA6]

Thanks All I went to the dealership and asked them to pull it on the lift and for the tech to show me. So once I was talking to the tech and not the sales person. He said the pads are ok but still have a few mm before needing changed. He said the lip is normal all rotors have them as you said (service advisor was saying this was the issue) However he did say I had "heat spots" he showed me, from hard braking he said. He also said I could do a new pair of pads without getting new rotors but over time braking performance will decline. VERY different story from what the service adviser told me...

I also wonder how much of this was pre-exisiting when I bought it audi certified, tech seemed to think it was unlikely one 4 15 minute sessions would cause it but he said it depended on braking patterns.

So apparently I've got some heat spots and not lipping, I've been reading arund on them. I suspect that's what's causing the noise at the end of the stop braking. Anyone have success on getting rid of them?

JRs: I did ask for the thickness spec, and min thickness measurement, thanks for that. Definitely disarmed the service adviser as you said!

Danny: What race pads do you use on track days? Can you confirm if you switch to race pads does this help eliminate future "hot spots" from developing in the future? Also at the track what tire are you running if you don't mind?

Jerri: They told me they won't resurface them and cannot due to the rotor design. I might take it to a tire place though and see what they say. What better stuff are you referring to? Front brakes on the RS7 are pretty massive, is there an upgrade you'd recommend?

Xtek: Thanks, how would I make a claim on that? Dealership said brakes and rotors are all on the owner regardless... However there is the pre-existing condition above I mentioned, I've only had the car 1.5 months and it was audi certified. Never thought to look at the rotors before for prior heat spots. Probably wouldn't have after track day even if I hadn't hit that pot hole and my tire went bad which is why I was in the shop in the first place.

Since you have taken action on our suggestions, then I would suggest you also read the following. http://stoptech.com/technical-suppor...nd-other-myths

Hopefully from reading this document, and there are other documents on this web site, you will become better informed so that you will be able to properly deal with brake issues and there causes.

I believe this document or another will explain how hotspots on rotors occur.

Anyway do some reading and become informed!!!

[dannybear]

My pad composition is exactly as per www.supercars.com. it's the top Australian racing car series using relatively heavy raceways. They have copies of the S6 c7 front brake pads design so they can now Supply front pads with the same compound. I dont think you will find another pad that comes close to this. Message me for details.
They may have the RS pad backing design. If not, sending them your old pads and they will copy the backing plate at which time anyone can then order them.
My understanding is rotor heat soak is not what's causing the squel. It's that the pads overheated. You will find the pads now don't quite bight the same on light braking. My understanding is heat sock is due to stopping with hot rotors with the pads/calipers keeping heat in that part of the rotor (on track days make sure you do a cool down lap before stopping and do not apply the handbrake)
Eventually I ended up buying new rotors and use them for everyday use. The old rotors are for track days and that will last me the life of the car. Overall much cheaper option.
R spec tyres are hard to find in a size that fits over our calipers. Ideally low profile tyres are not the best option for tracks. 18inch rims or 19inch are best to give the tyre walls some play (R spec tyres have much more rigid casings and operate on approx 25psi cold). I purchased after market audi 20inch rotor rims (as 19inch won't fit). Tyres are Continental ContiForceContact R spec 255/65/20. These are the only R spec tyres I could find in this size. I drive the tyres to and from the track as they are still groved enough to be road legal.

[Island Maser]

The harder the pad the better they will take the heat at the track. That being said there are compromises. The harder pads are going to eat up the rotors even faster running harder pads. They are going to be noisier on the street. Think metal on metal. Are you going to replace the pads just for track days? Going to full race pads on the street is not a good idea. The require heat to work properly and will not preform well when cold. I would not recommend a race rad on anything driven on the street period. Think of going down the highway for 30 minutes and a car pulls out in front of you? Your are not going to have the brakes you need. These cars are heavy and use a lot of brake on the street and the track. This not a Miata where you can lift and toss it into a corner allowing it to scrub off speed naturally. To go faster at the track it requires harder and later breaking. This is going to build even more heat until your brakes glow red and you start melting the pads. Until you start smelling burnt pads you are not close to over working your pads. Harder pads will take more heat but that means faster rotor wear and more brake noise on the street. Move up in small steps on hardness. The best plan is to have dedicated pads for the track. I never did it but it is the best way. I had high performance pads on my MINI JCW and I was to the melt point at the track. They were barely livable on the street and people were always telling me I needed new pads because of the noise. They were brand new. Even on a light weight MINI these pads would be toast in 4 track days. Stock pads would last about 2 days and these big Audi's weight a lot more and you use a lot more brake on the street and track.

[dannybear]

I agree. If you want to go hard on the track, NO track/road compromise pad will do. Every road pad will exceed it's operating temps if you use the car to its limits on the track (=FUN). The only surprising fact I would say is my track pads are not wearing out my rotors anywhere near what I expected for a track pad on a heavy car, with stock rotors, run on a very hard track on brakes.
(Note: this same track is soo hard on brakes it has even killed ceramic brakes creating excessive crack lengths that they had to replace their rotors $$$.)

[jrsAudiA6]

Michelin and Pirelli make "R" compound tires for 20 inch wheels. As far as brake pads for the track I have used Carbotech, EBC Blue and Orange, and Hawk DT60. Carbotech does make pads for the RS models not sure about EBC. I had to purchase my EBC Blue and Orange from a UK company since they are not sold by anyone in the US. Bedding your brake pads properly is what prevents excessive rotor wear. See the article I linked in my previous post. I'm currently trying to figure out a way to get an air duct for my front brakes. If anyone has ideas let me know.

[Winterk80]

I read that article, great read. I didn't re-bed the brakes before the track, they had been on the car for about a thousand miles and honestly I didn't realize it needed to be done. First time to the track. I did my cool down laps but I could smell some heat on them. I had multiple people look at them and everyone at the track said they were fine though. However I wonder if the heat spots are from the OEM brake pads overheating more so than the bedding? Can anyone clarify on that?

So now with the heat spots, my squeak has almost gone away after a through cleaning, but with the car on the ground and off the lift I can really see the heat spots. Pretty damn ugly and visible with these huge rims. I read about 1) doing some hard braking 60-5 mph 5 times or 2) the using a more abrasive pad to clean off the heat spots. Anyone have success with either of these methods to get the heat spots off at least visibly off?

[jrsAudiA6]

I read that article, great read. I didn't re-bed the brakes before the track, they had been on the car for about a thousand miles and honestly I didn't realize it needed to be done. First time to the track. I did my cool down laps but I could smell some heat on them. I had multiple people look at them and everyone at the track said they were fine though. However I wonder if the heat spots are from the OEM brake pads overheating more so than the bedding? Can anyone clarify on that?

So now with the heat spots, my squeak has almost gone away after a through cleaning, but with the car on the ground and off the lift I can really see the heat spots. Pretty damn ugly and visible with these huge rims. I read about 1) doing some hard braking 60-5 mph 5 times or 2) the using a more abrasive pad to clean off the heat spots. Anyone have success with either of these methods to get the heat spots off at least visibly off?

The heat spots are probably due to exceeding the heat capacity of your brake pads. As far as getting rid of them one method is to use the Hawk blue (9012) pad which is really abrasive. Unfortunately Hawk does not make their blue pad for your car. So, the only other way is thru using garnet sand paper and removing them with that or having the rotors Blanchard ground. The Hawk blue pads I bought for my Alcon calipers where ones close to the proper design but needed some further machining to make them fit since Hawk does not make that pad specifically for may caliper. If you are not feeling any kind of pulsing thru your brake pedal than the pad material deposition is not to bad and may disappear over time.

Stoptechs documents they have on their web sites has been very informative to me as well. I really have had to learn a lot about the technical side of car brakes since I started tracking my car about 4 years but it was worth it since having good brakes makes tracking more enjoyable. Also let me suggest that you completely change your brake fluid from the OEM fluid to one of the following.

Torque RT700
Castrol SRF

With our heavy cars, yours being about 400lbs heavier than my A6, the front brakes, as you have noticed, get really hot. So the 2 brake fluids I mentioned have the best Boiling temps for dry and wet conditions.

Here is a link to Torque web page to shows lab tested comparisons between several brake fluid brands. http://torquebrakefluid.com/compare_...ke_fluids.html

[dannybear]

I couldn't find pirelli or michelin r spec in 20inch. Do you know their name?

[jrsAudiA6]

I couldn't find pirelli or michelin r spec in 20inch. Do you know their name?

Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2

Pirelli P Zero Corsa System