Looking to reduce body roll, but I have some limitations

[KevinM.]

I'd like reduce the body roll on my stock Mag Ride S3, but I don't want to:
Create a harsh ride
Lower it to the point where I cannot see the top of the tire from a side view
Do anything that isn't 'easily' reversable

This is my daily driver, and I live in Los Angeles, which is filled with some decievingly rough roads, and I'd like to be able to switch to comfort suspension and get the same softer feeling ride when needed.
I like the look of a lowered car, but I personally don't like it when the top of the tire dissapears under the wheel well.

Thank you for your suggestions!

[FabianS]

034 rear sway bar...

[Sauci]

Swaybars + endlinks

[HurrayFive]

Eurocode's rear chassis brace takes about 10 minutes to install/remove and it very noticeably reduced the bit of body roll that's present in hard cornerning with the stock mag ride suspension. Combined with the 034 rear sub frame inserts it's all I need for an occasional track car while still keeping things civil enough for a date night. A rear sway bar is not a bad idea either, so far I've not found it necessary after the other mods.

The car's stock suspension geometry benefits more from additional rear structural rigidity more than anything else. It helps to induce the ability for power-on oversteer (with the extra power from a tune) as well as reduce the tendancy for understeer from the factory. The front is about as stiff as it needs to be from the factory, additional rigidity up front will reduce your ability for power-on oversteer and have a neglible effect on understeer.

[KevinM.]

Thank you so much for responses.
I was leaning towards a sway bar, but I assumed you guys would recommend lowering springs.
I like the idea of adding bracing, sub frame inserts and the sway bar. I'm not looking to make this thing an over steering track monster, so I think the above additions will be perfect.

I'll add the bracing and sub frame inserts first, and see if I still need the sway bar.

[Cairo94507]

KevinM - Please let us know your thoughts after you do the install of the sub-frame inserts and bracing. I was kind of leaning towards just the rear sway bar and end links. I will wait to see what your thoughts are.

[photocycler]

As a phased approach, if I install the subframe inserts with lowering springs (emmanuele) will I feel a difference or is the chassis brace a better first mod before the inserts? Thinking while I have the springs installed it's probably easier/cheaper to have them install the inserts as well.


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[KevinM.]

Is this the rear chassis brace you are refering to: http://www.ecodetuning.com/store/aud...ml#prettyPhoto ?
I was imagining something mounted to the chassis on the underbody, does this really provide a significant difference in stiffness?

[A20V200]

The XBQ and UBQ make a significant impact to chassis stiffness. Mine were installed by the previous owner, so I can't compare from stock, but it is worth it IMHO....debating on getting the rear sway bar from 034, but like HURRAYFIVE said....it might not be necessary with the XBQ and UBQ installed.

The subframe inserts are more for "drivetrain shift/deflection reduction" not body roll. I installed those as well. Unless you are Stage 1 or higher, they are not needed at the moment.

[HurrayFive]

Is this the rear chassis brace you are refering to: http://www.ecodetuning.com/store/aud...ml#prettyPhoto ?
I was imagining something mounted to the chassis on the underbody, does this really provide a significant difference in stiffness?

Yup, that's the one. It does a great job of reducing body roll in hard cornering on an otherwise stock car; you preload the strut rod ends on either side during installation and the car deflects load across the brace in hard cornering. I mentioned this part specifically for body roll as that seemed your top concern (as well as ease of install/removal), not overall chassis rigidity. There's a sweeping turn near my house in a generally empty area that is fun to dive into from time to time. When the car was stock, body roll was definitely apparent at the limit. After installing the brace, I can't get the car to induce body roll on the same turn. Spirited driving up a twisty canyon road feels more planted and roll is nowhere to be found. Worth it for the price & ease of installation IMO.

As A20V mentioned, the XBQ and UBQ mentioned seem to do a great job of increasing overall chassis rigidity, lots of folks here have good things to say about them. The combo that I have between the rear brace, inserts, and the BFI mounts has the car as raw as I'd like it to be for now.

[JohnnyUtah787]

Maybe I'm wrong, but the general idea behind chassis braces is to reduce chassis twist/flex, not body roll. Sway bars, on the other hand, are specifically designed to reduce body roll. However, the change in "feel" while driving may end up being quite similar I guess. You probably can't go wrong with either, but I would definitely do one thing at a time so you can see how things change.

[HurrayFive]

Maybe I'm wrong, but the general idea behind chassis braces is to reduce chassis twist/flex, not body roll. Sway bars, on the other hand, are specifically designed to reduce body roll. However, the change in "feel" while driving may end up being quite similar I guess. You probably can't go wrong with either, but I would definitely do one thing at a time so you can see how things change.

No, you're right that a beefier sway bar will generally always be more resistant to body roll than a less-beefy (beef-less?) sway bar. If I remember from my suspension dynamics class, oh, all of...dear lord almost 12 years ago now...I think a sway bar increases in stiffness by diameter (d) to the power of 4? d^4 Which is why even a relatively small increase in diameter (say from 21mm to 24mm) results in a bar nearly twice as rigid. (21^4 vs 24^4)

On this platform in particular, in stock form, it seems that rear chassis flex and rear chassis rigidity are large contributors to the feeling of body roll under hard cornering, based on the car's tendency to understeer at the limit, and just from driving one at the limit. This is why I mentioned the rear chassis brace did a solid job of reducing the body roll, because it targets those area's specifically. Before and after, just the rear chassis brace, was a very noticeable reduction in body roll under hard cornering. It also improved the tendency for understeer, to the point that power-on oversteer is very possible (and fun) with the extra power from a tune.

That's not to say it wouldn't be even better w/ a rear sway bar, in all likely hood a rear sway bar by itself is probably more effective than the rear chassis brace by itself, it's just not the route I went. If the car ever spends more time dedicated to the track, it's never too late to add one :)

[alexdva78]

I am also with a stock mag ride and i just wanted to reduced body roll... went with the super pro 24mm rear sway bar and no more body roll, car feels planted and solid during hard cornering, which it just what I wanted.

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[fasts3]

dont do coils.. just H&R supersport springs, then Eurocode front and rear sway bars (both for $340) plus Eurocode rear chassis brace.
Then also Unibrace XBQ and UBQ.

Now you are ready for track days.

[A20V200]

There are some of these items in the classified section.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ings-A3-S3-MQB

[EmmanueleDesign]

I'd like reduce the body roll on my stock Mag Ride S3, but I don't want to:
Create a harsh ride
Lower it to the point where I cannot see the top of the tire from a side view
Do anything that isn't 'easily' reversable

This is my daily driver, and I live in Los Angeles, which is filled with some decievingly rough roads, and I'd like to be able to switch to comfort suspension and get the same softer feeling ride when needed.
I like the look of a lowered car, but I personally don't like it when the top of the tire dissapears under the wheel well.

Thank you for your suggestions!

Seeing that you are in LA, we have a number of customers in your area with springs and sway bar combinations. We are also right in Anaheim, so you are welcome to come check out our shop car to see if the parts on it will suit your criteria.

[KevinM.]

I often fold my seats to fit large items in my car, so the XBQ and Eurocode strut won't work for me.

What are your thoughts on just the UBQ and sway bar (and maybe the 034 subframe inserts)? I like the 034 sway bar because I can set it to the 134% setting for the road, then when I head to the track I can dial it up to the 152% setting.

[A20V200]

I often fold my seats to fit large items in my car, so the XBQ and Eurocode strut won't work for me.

What are your thoughts on just the UBQ and sway bar (and maybe the 034 subframe inserts)? I like the 034 sway bar because I can set it to the 134% setting for the road, then when I head to the track I can dial it up to the 152% setting.

The XBQ is held in by 6 bolts and can easily be removed if need be for transporting larger items.

The UBQ is definitely an upgrade and will tie the chassis together. The 034 insert are ONLY to firm up the drivetrain parts and reduce the slop in the OEM bushings.

So if you can swing it...do the UBQ and the 034 rear sway bar together if the (back seat) XBQ is NOT an option...if the XBQ and UBQ are an option to that.

[KevinM.]

Alright, about to place my order for the UBQ and 034 Sway Bar. I will probably install them at the same time, instead of the planned phased approach.

I am not sure if I need the 034 subframe inserts, unless somebody can convince me that they will make a big difference in the feel of the car. It seems like they just make the car feel more "raw," which isn't a bad thing, I'm just not sure whether they are worth the money and effort to install.

-Also, if my car is not lowered, do I NEED new end links? I understand the benefit, but do I really need them with my current setup?

[Baggio]

Alright, about to place my order for the UBQ and 034 Sway Bar. I will probably install them at the same time, instead of the planned phased approach.

I am not sure if I need the 034 subframe inserts, unless somebody can convince me that they will make a big difference in the feel of the car. It seems like they just make the car feel more "raw," which isn't a bad thing, I'm just not sure whether they are worth the money and effort to install.

-Also, if my car is not lowered, do I NEED new end links? I understand the benefit, but do I really need them with my current setup?

I would highly recommend the 034 subframe inserts. I wouldn't say it's more "raw", I would say the car feels more stable and control in the rear. It's a 10 minutes once you jack up the car. Check out this thread for more information.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...unt-Insert-Kit

[saxon]

dont do coils.. just H&R supersport springs, then Eurocode front and rear sway bars (both for $340) plus Eurocode rear chassis brace.
Then also Unibrace XBQ and UBQ.

Now you are ready for track days.

How can you say to not do coils, but instead recommend Springs with stock shocks for track days?

[JohnnyUtah787]

How can you say to not do coils, but instead recommend Springs with stock shocks for track days?

Maybe because his car has mag ride?

[KevinM.]

I got the UBQ and the 034 Sway bar and installed them this past Sunday at home.
My dad used to be a mechanic, and likes to work on his cars himself, so we have a lube bay in our garage. The installation of the UBQ was as easy as it gets, nothing special there, just a few nuts and bolts.
We thought we'd be able to remove/ install the swaybar without having to lift the car, but we realized that it would be too difficult. With the car over the lube bay, we jacked it up and put it on jackstands so we could access the sway bar endlinks more easily. The hardest part of the sway bar intallation was the removal/ installation of the sway bar from/ onto the end links. Hard, not impossible by any means. I had originally planned to get the sway bar set up on the softer of the two settings, 37% stiffer than stock, and then go to the 52% setting whenever I go to the track. Because of how time consuming the process of jacking up the car and disconnecting the sway bar from the end links would be, I decided to just go with the 52% setting. The entire process of the removal of the old sway bar, and the installation of the new one took a little over an hour, including the time it took the get the car jacked up.

The results:
In my head I had two possible outcomes: Pretty noticeable difference with a pretty significance reduction in body roll; or no real change
I was very happy, I could totally feel a difference in the way the car behaved. I haven't had a chance to drive through any mountain or especially fun roads, but I am very happy with what I've felt. There is without a doubt less body roll, but more than that, the car feels more locked in. I noticed a little bit more of a tendancy to oversteer in areas when before the modification, it wouldn't. Overall I am really happy with these upgrades, they did everything I hoped they would.

[Dr.Chris]

If you want to reduce body roll and not change the harshness of the car, just get a bigger rear sway bar. Hopefully if lowering springs are made right, will also be stiffer, but I don't think that is what you are looking for. Also a sway bar will be much easier to install and take out in the future to go back to stock.

[KevinM.]

Yup, changing the sway bar and adding some bracing really improved the performance without compromising ride quality.
Thank you to everybody who suggested these upgrades

[FabianS]

How do you like the 034 sway bar? Considering one myself to go with my Emmanuel Design lowering springs and 034 Rear inserts. Do you have it on the lower or higher setting?

[KevinM.]

How do you like the 034 sway bar? Considering one myself to go with my Emmanuel Design lowering springs and 034 Rear inserts. Do you have it on the lower or higher setting?

I was very, very impressed with the 034 sway bar, which I have on its stiffest setting. I might do the 034 subframe mounts soon, but I have not, and have no plans to lower my car.
If your goal is to simply improve handling without sacrificing some daily driving capability, then if suggest getting a sway bar, bracing and if you'd like, subframe mounts.

[Nathing32]

How do you like the 034 sway bar? Considering one myself to go with my Emmanuel Design lowering springs and 034 Rear inserts. Do you have it on the lower or higher setting?

I've got the 034 sway, end links and subframe mounts. Currently 1/4 of the way through installing the ED springs. I'll let you know how it all feels when I get the springs done. All of the 034 parts can be installed in an afternoon.

[Niwdog]

Newbie here from Toronto Canada. Great thread. I am on the same journey as KevinM, but starting with A3 S-Line Convertible. S3 and RS3 versions are not sold here.

I am curious about differences between 034 sway bar (22mm) and H&R (25mm).

I may also have a cheap DIY mod for your airbox. Put in an H&R replacement filter and take out the piece of plastic under the filter - looks like useless restriction to me. Feels and sounds better. I am also considering opening up the fresh air inlet on the left side to provide direct flow/ram to the airbox; currently the airflow comes from the right side while the airbox is on the left. I jerry rigged something by taking out the inlet box and cutting up a super slider carpet (aka tobogan - Canadian thing) to bring flow directly to the airbox. It looks terrrible, but sound was better and acceleration felt better once moving. I think some drainage holes would be needed in the airbox to deal with potential water entrainment. Also, I think opening up the inlet box on the left side is probably a more elegant solution. The problem is the engine compartment is so damn hot, and the airbox so far from the turbo inlet, that the engine heat overcomes anything you do here. Thoughts?