A Financial, Not Emotional, Approach To APR's Stage 1 & Stage 2

[on3eighteen]

Based on the horsepower & torque gains from APR's website, it seems like a much better value to get Stage 1 vs. Stage 2 (https://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_u...30tfsi_c7.html). The gains from stock to Stage 1 are much more significant than from Stage 1 to Stage 2. Granted, the price for Stage 1 is $1,300 & to then go to Stage 2 is another $850 which is less, but the value you get per hp/ft-lbs increase seems so much better sticking w/ Stage 1. I know this is more of a financial take at this vs. emotional, and if we all had unlimited money we'd just go to Stage 2 & carry on with life. But I just went to Stage 1 & it's night and day. I called the local APR dealer & asked if I'd notice significant gains to now go to Stage 2 & he conceded that it's much less than what I've experienced so far.

[hubris]

Yes I agree it is a less significant difference in the "butt dyno" department going from Stage 1 to 2. I would say stock to stage 1 is a 100% difference, stage 1 to 2 is maybe a 25% difference in perception of speed/torque. However, if you like the sound of cars and engines, then the SOUND that comes from adding DPs tremendously increases the amount of fun you have while driving the car.

The $/hp cost is much higher for stage 2, especially if you consider the cost of downpipe install (these costs have varied from $400 to $800+ on this forum). I paid more than that but they also did a full exhaust install, not just DPs.

[tph4m86]

The higher you go in horsepower, the more expensive it gets for hp/$. Its always been this way, nothing new.

[on3eighteen]

You mention downpipes...I don't need to do that for Stage 2, correct? Just the pulley upgrade?

[tph4m86]

Downpipes are for s6/s7 4.0tt. Pulleys are for the v6 supercharged


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[on3eighteen]

I tend to drive mostly up to 4500rpm & not really to redline. Does the Stage 2 deliver power early on which would make it more worth it or is it only if I get to high revs?

[SlickMachine]

I tend to drive mostly up to 4500rpm & not really to redline. Does the Stage 2 deliver power early on which would make it more worth it or is it only if I get to high revs?

My 2¢

On my A7 which I just purchased pre owned, i immediately took it in and went stage 1. I scheduled stage 2 for a week later on that day as the installer was out of pulleys at the time. When I drove off stage 1, I was somewhat unimpressed until I figured out where that new power was, which is higher in the rpm range. Low end torque increase was nil in my opinion. Getting on the highway was fun for sure but winding the car out to get the experience I was after left me disappointed. Now, after leaving the lot after stage 2 install, a MUCH different experience. The pulley and software bring that stage 1 power down lower to where you notice it all the time. Now there is significant grunt down low and the car pulls very hard all the way thru whereas before with stage 1 there was a waiting period until north of 3k rpm before the effects were noticeable Yes i agree that looking at dyno numbers alone, especially only the peak numbers, paint the picture that stage 1 is plenty and the pulley doesn't make much sense...but take a close look at the torque curve and notice how at the lower end of the spectrum it starts to take off. Take it for what it's worth, but my opinion is that stage 1 is great and everything, but stage 2 yields a noticeably more potent motor. I drove stage 1 for just over a week before going to 2.. FWIW

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[dethmetaljeff]

My 2¢

On my A7 which I just purchased pre owned, i immediately took it in and went stage 1. I scheduled stage 2 for a week later on that day as the installer was out of pulleys at the time. When I drove off stage 1, I was somewhat unimpressed until I figured out where that new power was, which is higher in the rpm range. Low end torque increase was nil in my opinion. Getting on the highway was fun for sure but winding the car out to get the experience I was after left me disappointed. Now, after leaving the lot after stage 2 install, a MUCH different experience. The pulley and software bring that stage 1 power down lower to where you notice it all the time. Now there is significant grunt down low and the car pulls very hard all the way thru whereas before with stage 1 there was a waiting period until north of 3k rpm before the effects were noticeable Yes i agree that looking at dyno numbers alone, especially only the peak numbers, paint the picture that stage 1 is plenty and the pulley doesn't make much sense...but take a close look at the torque curve and notice how at the lower end of the spectrum it starts to take off. Take it for what it's worth, but my opinion is that stage 1 is great and everything, but stage 2 yields a noticeably more potent motor. I drove stage 1 for just over a week before going to 2.. FWIW

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Completely agree. When I had my S4, stage 1 wasn't really that much of a change unless I was really revving the engine. Stage 2 on the other hand is noticeable pretty much throughout the entire rpm band. I think it's money very well spent.

[on3eighteen]

Well, that's EXACTLY the feedback I was looking for. And from somebody like me that has Stage 1, drove it for a bit, & then upgraded. I will let you know in about 1 week if I am a happy customer! Thank you for your quick feedback!

[SlickMachine]

Well, that's EXACTLY the feedback I was looking for. And from somebody like me that has Stage 1, drove it for a bit, & then upgraded. I will let you know in about 1 week if I am a happy customer! Thank you for your quick feedback!

I have no doubt you will be grinning ear to ear when you land on that throttle. Best 2300$ you can spend on a car. Butt-dyno tested and approved.

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[Sean@APR]

The higher you go in horsepower, the more expensive it gets for hp/$. Its always been this way, nothing new.

This... Diminishing returns sucks.

For a V6 car, the pulley is huge. It makes a much bigger difference in the butt dyno than the numbers reflect.
For a V8 car, the pipes are not as big of an improvement as Stage 1. They're good (I have them on my car and we're still constantly sold out of them), but diminishing return is definitely at play.

[AstleyJ]

Well, that's EXACTLY the feedback I was looking for. And from somebody like me that has Stage 1, drove it for a bit, & then upgraded. I will let you know in about 1 week if I am a happy customer! Thank you for your quick feedback!

I think if you lurk the B8 S4 forums you will see S2 is where it is at for the 3.0T. Seems to be a much larger difference maker.

[KnewJack]

This... Diminishing returns sucks.

For a V6 car, the pulley is huge. It makes a much bigger difference in the butt dyno than the numbers reflect.
For a V8 car, the pipes are not as big of an improvement as Stage 1. They're good (I have them on my car and we're still constantly sold out of them), but diminishing return is definitely at play.

I think you start reaching the limits of the factory turbos on the C7 S6/7 by stage 2. Now if you were to go from stage 1 to stage 2+ which includes the RS7's turbos, I think you would find the jump more satisfying.

[justcured]

I think you start reaching the limits of the factory turbos on the C7 S6/7 by stage 2. Now if you were to go from stage 1 to stage 2+ which includes the RS7's turbos, I think you would find the jump more satisfying.

Says the brand new forum member to the guy from APR. Oh well, . . . .

[KnewJack]

Says the brand new forum member to the guy from APR. Oh well, . . . .

I was more so adding comment to the OP question using APR's statement. Nothing more...

New to forum but certainly not new to forced induction nor building high HP cars doing most of my own work, thanks.

[Sean@APR]

I think you start reaching the limits of the factory turbos on the C7 S6/7 by stage 2. Now if you were to go from stage 1 to stage 2+ which includes the RS7's turbos, I think you would find the jump more satisfying.

Pretty much, yeah. if you can afford the turbos, do that!

- - - Updated - - -

Says the brand new forum member to the guy from APR. Oh well, . . . .

I also started with 1 post. :)

[KnewJack]

Pretty much, yeah. if you can afford the turbos, do that!

- - - Updated - - -



I also started with 1 post. :)

Yes, we all gotta start somewhere!

The RS7 turbos are a thing of beauty, the compressor wheels look like billet wheels. Are they? Also are they the IHI RHF55 or RHF6 or something else? Thanks. Impossible to find a compressor map for them.

[tph4m86]

You increase boost in a supercharged car via pulleys and turbo cars via tunes, hence why the Better roi is on pulleys on V6s


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[Demandred]

has anyone in the US gone down the MTM route ? don't see it mentioned on here much...if ever

[KnewJack]

You increase boost in a supercharged car via pulleys and turbo cars via tunes, hence why the Better roi is on pulleys on V6s


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The APR tune increases boost on the B8 S4 by keeping the bypass valve closed longer in the upper RPM range, yes? Maybe not an overall increase in boost, but an increase I would think.

[on3eighteen]

The last question that I have is...is there any concern about reliability on the C7 engine in the A6 3.0T? I believe it's used in other cars like the much faster S4 so I'm thinking there's plenty of room for more power. I just don't want to be worried when I drive hard that I may do some $$$ damage!

[Sean@APR]

The last question that I have is...is there any concern about reliability on the C7 engine in the A6 3.0T? I believe it's used in other cars like the much faster S4 so I'm thinking there's plenty of room for more power. I just don't want to be worried when I drive hard that I may do some $$$ damage!

It's almost the same engine. There are some part number differences, but having tuned them for 6 years, we haven't seen any major problems.

[SlickMachine]

The last question that I have is...is there any concern about reliability on the C7 engine in the A6 3.0T? I believe it's used in other cars like the much faster S4 so I'm thinking there's plenty of room for more power. I just don't want to be worried when I drive hard that I may do some $$$ damage!

3.0T is in S4, S5, A6, A7, A8, Q5.... There are a lot of these motors out there, which in turn drives down part prices. Check out the cost of a long block 2.5 vs the 3.0 block. Very durable motor as I'm sure APR would agree.

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[on3eighteen]

Do you think the Stage 2 is any more risky b/c it's a hardware modification that Audi didn't really intend vs. the software modification in Stage 1 that's pretty much what the faster cars w/ the same engine like the S4 are built to handle?

[hubris]

Do you think the Stage 2 is any more risky b/c it's a hardware modification that Audi didn't really intend vs. the software modification in Stage 1 that's pretty much what the faster cars w/ the same engine like the S4 are built to handle?

Stage 2 is absolutely more risky because it's higher output. More horsepower, more torque = more load and stress on drivetrain components. This is the same reason stage 1 is "risky". You're pushing the car beyond what it was engineered for.

[VVG]

has anyone in the US gone down the MTM route ? don't see it mentioned on here much...if ever

MTM is virtually non-existent in the US these days. There were a numbers of vendors that sourced them years ago, but no longer. I think there is only one source for MTM in the U.S. in Florida. It is too bad. They make phenomenal products. Not sure why the U.S. presence is so bad. Does anyone know what happened to MTM in the U.S. ?

[DoughBoyFreshLV]

Based on the horsepower & torque gains from APR's website, it seems like a much better value to get Stage 1 vs. Stage 2 (https://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_u...30tfsi_c7.html). The gains from stock to Stage 1 are much more significant than from Stage 1 to Stage 2. Granted, the price for Stage 1 is $1,300 & to then go to Stage 2 is another $850 which is less, but the value you get per hp/ft-lbs increase seems so much better sticking w/ Stage 1. I know this is more of a financial take at this vs. emotional, and if we all had unlimited money we'd just go to Stage 2 & carry on with life. But I just went to Stage 1 & it's night and day. I called the local APR dealer & asked if I'd notice significant gains to now go to Stage 2 & he conceded that it's much less than what I've experienced so far.

You should just go stage 2, APR should have a summer sale going on sooner or later with the package deal on stage 2, that's what I did. The pulley was on back ordered when I got flashed to stage 1, so I drove it around for about a week waiting on the pulley to arrive. I thought, why do I even need to add the pulley when I just got all this power added from the flash? But it was already paid for so once it came in I put it on. Then I realized how much more grunt I just got off the line, the car really felt like it was digging into the ground and taking off. It's really surprising how much power this motor can make with a simple flash and pulley upgrade, throw on some exhaust with air intake and your golden.

I tend to drive mostly up to 4500rpm & not really to redline. Does the Stage 2 deliver power early on which would make it more worth it or is it only if I get to high revs?

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[on3eighteen]

Just following up to see if you've had any reliability issues? Someone just posted on this thread to be very careful of harming the engine due to the significant increase in power that the internal components have not bee designed to handle.

[SlickMachine]

Just following up to see if you've had any reliability issues? Someone just posted on this thread to be very careful of harming the engine due to the significant increase in power that the internal components have not bee designed to handle.

Couple thousand miles on my stage 2, not a single hiccup.
As for engine stress, I don't think you could argue that there isn't added stress on the motor with any software mod. I asked these questions to my installer and here is what i learned in a nut shell::
I live in northeast Ohio, where Eaton corporation is headquartered. Eaton makes the blower for our motors. My installer has an acquaintance that worked at Eaton in an engineering role who shifted over to APR. He asked the same question about the pulley/spinning the blower faster/etc. He said they put that blower on a bench with that pulley and spun it at max load for a very long time with no failure (I believe he said for over 24 hours). I felt better about it after hearing that. Take it FWIW. Maybe an APR guy could get on here and verify that. I would like to know definitively what kind of testing was done on that blower.

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[on3eighteen]

Day 1 into the Stage 2 & love it. I haven't even had time to really test but like everybody wrote the low end gains are fantastic. I cannot really imagine having a better car that combines luxury, quality, & performance for the cost. I'd have to spend another $50K to get something that'd be worth the price. BMW, Mercedes, Lexus...they've got nothing on these cars.

[SlickMachine]

Day 1 into the Stage 2 & love it. I haven't even had time to really test but like everybody wrote the low end gains are fantastic. I cannot really imagine having a better car that combines luxury, quality, & performance for the cost. I'd have to spend another $50K to get something that'd be worth the price. BMW, Mercedes, Lexus...they've got nothing on these cars.

Nothing better in my opinion. I just picked up my 2012 A7 with low miles for literally exactly half of what it stickered for new, now I'm wasting mustangs and camaros in luxury with 4 doors. It's hard to believe that's only a 3.0 under the hood at times.

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[SlickMachine]

Day 1 into the Stage 2 & love it. I haven't even had time to really test but like everybody wrote the low end gains are fantastic. I cannot really imagine having a better car that combines luxury, quality, & performance for the cost. I'd have to spend another $50K to get something that'd be worth the price. BMW, Mercedes, Lexus...they've got nothing on these cars.

Don't forget to try your car in Dynamic mode if you haven't already...transmission stays right where there is a tremendous amount of torque available vs the everyday comfort mode. It's night and day different.

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[on3eighteen]

I typically drive in Dynamic mode & notice it shifts around 3K. I read somewhere that if you quickly pin the throttle, even in comfort mode, it will automatically switch to Dynamic but I haven't gotten this to work. Any ideas? Also, is there a way to enable launch control w/ the APR tune?

[DoughBoyFreshLV]

I typically drive in Dynamic mode & notice it shifts around 3K. I read somewhere that if you quickly pin the throttle, even in comfort mode, it will automatically switch to Dynamic but I haven't gotten this to work. Any ideas? Also, is there a way to enable launch control w/ the APR tune?

Ive never heard of or experienced the car switching driving modes from wot, you just switch it manually. Also LC is just brake and gas pedal at the same time, hold your tc button for 3 seconds untill its shut off, then hold the brake and rev to 3k, then release.

The last question that I have is...is there any concern about reliability on the C7 engine in the A6 3.0T? I believe it's used in other cars like the much faster S4 so I'm thinking there's plenty of room for more power. I just don't want to be worried when I drive hard that I may do some $$$ damage!

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