P0016 code. Questions and help please

[bagged00]

Car started acting up today. Longer then normal start, and when it does it idles rough for a minute and then calms down. So i did some searching and found the p0016 code is no good. I'm reading a lot of different things from chain tensioner, to chain replacement, to just doing the sensors. So any ideas on wherror to start would be helpful?

[o1turbo30v]

Car started acting up today. Longer then normal start, and when it does it idles rough for a minute and then calms down. So i did some searching and found the p0016 code is no good. I'm reading a lot of different things from chain tensioner, to chain replacement, to just doing the sensors. So any ideas on wherror to start would be helpful?

Yup, you are hosed, http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index...0/P0016/000022 time for a new head (or rebuild yours), chain, and tensioner, dont waste your money on replacing sensors, these cars are smart enough that if it was a sensor problem, the error code would reflect that.

[van462]

If you remove the upper timing chain cover you can get a good look at the cam sprockets and the timing chain. Jack the car and place on jackstands and remove the lower engine plastic shield. Use a socket to rotate the crank by the bolt securing the crank pulley (having the sparkplugs out makes this much easier). The timing chain has 3 green links. 2 of these correspond to the cam gear timing marks. Rotate until these two links are visible on the cam gears. Check their correlation with the cam marks. it may take many turns to get to the spot where both are on the cam marks. You will more than likely see your chain is loose and the slack causes it to jump or almost jump off the teeth. The bad news by the time you get a P0016 code you have likely had the cams jump enough to contact the pistons. Even a little bit of driving at this stage can go from no damage and a light repair bill to needing a new engine. Just depends on if it got hit.

[bagged00]

I tried to crank the car up today took long to start and when it did Itell was rough. So I took the timing cover off and this what I see. Dont know if it tells anything at all? Still have to turn the motoruploadfromtaptalk1462666659357.jpguploadfromtaptalk1462666663583.jpg

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[bagged00]

Don't know why tap talk uploaded these upside down but u can see on the first pic the chain mark is 1 off from the cam mark.

[van462]

They do only line up every x number of turns. But you do have the earlier version of the timing chain which is more prone to stretching. Also it looks as if the chain may be stretched as it doesn't looks like its well seated in the cam gear teeth. I could be wrong on this but that is how the photo looks to me. You will get a better idea once you have both timing marks visible and at 12 o clock. You can then see the relationship between the intake cam and exhaust cam is respect to the timing chain. The lower sprocket usually doesn't jump as it has more degrees of tooth engagement plus no valve spring loading. You may be lucky in that the intake cam jumped vs the exhaust cam. The intake cam has a position sensor on it that the exhaust side doesn't have. When the exhaust cam jumps there is no fault code. Hard starting can cause more jumping as the oil pressure is low causing less chain tension. If the tensioner locking clip has failed and even more likely to jump more teeth.

[bagged00]

Thanks for all the input. So I need both cam Marka to be at 12oclock and be able to see 2 chain markings. Then I'll know how far off I am? What solutions do you guys recommend. I'm probably going to trade this car in after this so really don't know what approach to take.

[bagged00]

Bump need to figure out what to do with this thing.

[o1turbo30v]

Bump need to figure out what to do with this thing.

Get rid off it, it's a very expensive repair.

[bagged00]

I'd venture to say it's got some valves bent. Where it did say 0016 now I'm reading misfire in cylinder 1 and 4

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[bagged00]

I'm going to get rid of it just don't know what to do to get rid of it.

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[bagged00]

Bump

[Allowencer]

Hey man, sorry you've had this issue; however, it's a "known" issue for any car running the 2.0 motor prior to basically 2012. This happened to me back at the last day of Jan into Feb. I have TONS of info that I've logged and documented; I highly recommend you check it out and read everything I shared: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ighlight=p0016

First off - DO NOT START the motor again. This could cause further damage and/or make the chain jump further.

For the record, I need to quote van because what he shared is partially correct; allow me to provide better guidance:

They do only line up every x number of turns. But you do have the earlier version of the timing chain which is more prone to stretching. Also it looks as if the chain may be stretched as it doesn't looks like its well seated in the cam gear teeth. I could be wrong on this but that is how the photo looks to me. You will get a better idea once you have both timing marks visible and at 12 o clock. You can then see the relationship between the intake cam and exhaust cam is respect to the timing chain. The lower sprocket usually doesn't jump as it has more degrees of tooth engagement plus no valve spring loading. You may be lucky in that the intake cam jumped vs the exhaust cam. The intake cam has a position sensor on it that the exhaust side doesn't have. When the exhaust cam jumps there is no fault code. Hard starting can cause more jumping as the oil pressure is low causing less chain tension. If the tensioner locking clip has failed and even more likely to jump more teeth.

- It takes approx. 20 complete revolutions before the chain were to line perfectly back up on all 3 timing marks (crank, exhaust and intake sprockets); however, no matter what rotation, when #1 is at proper TDC, the timing marks will be equally 'off' from the sprocket marks an at an 'even' number of spaces (i.e. 2 links behind, 4 links behind, etc.). This is because of the odd tooth count between all of the sprockets.
- ALL timing chains will stretch over time; doesn't matter what version/generation.
- The chain not 'seating' right is because the timing tensioner has given out and there is no more tension on the primary guide rail. This is what causes the chain to 'skip'. I cover and explain this in my thread. The lower (crank) sprocket doesn't/can't skip because of the angle the 2 guide rails come down towards the crank itself; there isn't enough room for it to skip (unless the chain were to break, but that's a completely different type of failure!).
- If the chain skipped, more than likely both intake and exhaust are off - to my previous point and to what van462 said, if the chain doesn't skip on the crank sprocket, it's literally "driving" the chain, it will skip across the top 2 sprockets.
- Timing marks for each sprocket do not line up at 12 o'clock. The intake is at like 1 o'clock and the exhaust is more like 11-11:15.

Cliff notes: the timing tensioner fails. It's really based on the number of times you actually 'start' your car; not how long it has been running (i.e. the number of miles/KM). If it's only jumped a link or two, you might be lucky and pistons have not come into contact with the valves. This is what happened to me. Since that's the case, depending on how much time and effort you want to put into the car, it's a fairly straight forward repair if you are comfortable and familiar with 'core' engine repair work. On a scale from 1-10, this is a 9-9.5 for sure. Some special tools are required and I cover them in my thread too. I HIGHLY recommend replacing all timing parts; that means all guide rails, timing chain, balance shaft chain and rails and the oil pump's chain. Do you HAVE to? Depends on what damage you find and how long you want to keep the car. Since you will be 'right there', you might as well do it and do it properly.

Hit me up if you have any further questions after you read my thread - good luck!

[bagged00]

Thanks for the help man. I've read over your thread a good bit and probably will continue to till I understand things better.

[bagged00]

Bump

[STA4]

Damn it. It looks like I'm another victim at 98k kms. I didn't think it would happen so soon...was planning on taking care of this. My car didn't crank, so I tried a second time. No go. Pulled the P0016 code.

If it doesn't crank, I've bent some shit right?

[Allowencer]

Ouch bud; that sucks and I'm sorry to hear. As I mentioned, it's not based on how many miles/KM's but how many times the car has been 'started'. If you read my thread, I explain how the pawl within the tensioner slams back and forth within its channel and the teeth on the pawl wear down and then sheer off. This causes the tensioner's piston to depress into the assembly, resulting in the main guide rail to lose tension which allows enough slack on the chain and it will jump over the cam sprockets based on crank torque.

I'm not asking you to, how long did you press the key in to try and get it to start? If you held for 5+ seconds and it didn't, there's a good chance you have severe damage OR the chain broke (which could also cause severe damage) or the computer can't figure out timing and doesn't know where firing order is so it won't start. For you, I'd hope for the later.

In my thread, I explain how you can take the upper timing cover off to start to investigate. Good luck

[A4x]

Car started acting up today. Longer then normal start, and when it does it idles rough for a minute and then calms down. So i did some searching and found the p0016 code is no good. I'm reading a lot of different things from chain tensioner, to chain replacement, to just doing the sensors. So any ideas on wherror to start would be helpful?

Damn it. It looks like I'm another victim at 98k kms. I didn't think it would happen so soon...was planning on taking care of this. My car didn't crank, so I tried a second time. No go. Pulled the P0016 code.

If it doesn't crank, I've bent some shit right?

98000 km....that is scary.

@bagged00, could you please share your model year and mileage? I wish you all the best in your repair, and hopefully minimal damage.

This type of failure really is unacceptable at a mileage like STA4's. Anywhere under 200000km is unacceptable IMO.

[Allowencer]

There are documented cases where the tensioner has failed around 60,000 miles. Like I said, it's not solely based on miles, it's really based on how many times the engine is started.

[fthzzz]

Hi , just read this thread about P0016 code.

I recently service my car and replaced the tensioner , cam chain, tensioner pad and tensioner adjuster. After getting those replaced, the engine has the P0016 code came out, I have to press the start button for 1-2 second in order to the car running, then have a little vibration on the engine until the rpm drops to 900 rpm. I drove the car for 500km basically has no issue, but the engine code keep lights up. I tried to clear it from vcds, but after the second time I start my car, and the engine light is on again with the same code.

My car is 2010 Q5 and ran 125,000km.

Is it something wrong with the camshaft?


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[van462]

Its very easy to install the chain incorrectly and be off a tooth or have the crank sprocket not aligned properly on its splines when removing/installing the crank pulley.

[Allowencer]

Its very easy to install the chain incorrectly and be off a tooth or have the crank sprocket not aligned properly on its splines when removing/installing the crank pulley.

Said perfectly. Did you do the replacement?

[fthzzz]

Its very easy to install the chain incorrectly and be off a tooth or have the crank sprocket not aligned properly on its splines when removing/installing the crank pulley.

My garage had took a look at the timing , and say it's 100% correct. But I seriously doubt it. Is it if the timing is not correct, even you cannot fire up the car and drive along ? The only thing I feel except the p0016 code is having rough idle at the start.

[Allowencer]

You can be a tooth or two off and the car will start and 'run', but run like crap. It all depends on how far off the timing is and specifically where. Meaning, is it just one cam off from the other and the crank? Or is the crank off phase from the cams? Or are both cams off? The only way to tell is to put the crank at TDC once the main links come around to the cam sprockets with the top inspection cover off. Keep in mind, it can take around 20 full revolutions in order to bring the main links up to match on the cam sprockets as it's an odd tooth count between the 3 sprockets.

[van462]

I think the P0016 can only be generated by the intake cam as that is where the cam sensor is located. The intake cam can also shift timing using the cam actuator solenoid and oil pressure. On the front of the upper timing cover there are 3 bolts that hold on the cam actuator. Verify it is plugged in. It should return to a static timing at idle and only advance when the ECU engages the solenoid to allows oil pressure to actuate it. You don't hear of this part failing very often.

[fthzzz]

You can be a tooth or two off and the car will start and 'run', but run like crap. It all depends on how far off the timing is and specifically where. Meaning, is it just one cam off from the other and the crank? Or is the crank off phase from the cams? Or are both cams off? The only way to tell is to put the crank at TDC once the main links come around to the cam sprockets with the top inspection cover off. Keep in mind, it can take around 20 full revolutions in order to bring the main links up to match on the cam sprockets as it's an odd tooth count between the 3 sprockets.

My car seems working fine when I drive in D gear shift, just that I feel a little shake when I put the gearbox in P mode at idle. Does the camshaft is a common part need to replace with the timing chain altogether?

[fthzzz]

Anyone know why it's only 123mm between two marks? It's 1mm shorter after installed new chain. And the engine throw P0016 error.






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[Allowencer]

Are you sure you measured correctly? If you are right at 123mm (meaning 123.0 and not 123.8/123.9) then something is wrong. Here is what I got when I measured mine right after installing:


Spec is 124-127mm for this measurement

You also should measure from the outside of the guide lip to the intake's cam; like this:

Spec is 61-64mm for this measurement.

[van462]

Looking at Allowancer's build thread you can see his intake cam clearly without the cover in place. The cutout for the intake cam sensor is seven behind the marked intake cam tooth. It would be interesting to know the orientation of the intake cam gear when the intake cam sensor slot is visible thru the sensor mounting hole. If the cam shaft is stuck in advanced timing in relation to the cam gear then P0016 could generate.

[fthzzz]

Just wanted to check is the camshaft is easy to break for some reason in 2010 Q5 with 125000km on it?


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[Allowencer]

Just wanted to check is the camshaft is easy to break for some reason in 2010 Q5 with 125000km on it?


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Sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you are asking....??

Are you asking if there is a "break-in period" when you re-install the cams? If so, no there isn't.

Are you asking if it's easy to 'break' a cam (i.e. damage it); well that all depends but it is easily possible.

[adamazing]

This thread frightens me so I'm leaving.

Out of sight, out of mind. Ignorance is bliss.

[Captain Amazing]

Ugh, this plus the oil consumption problems. Just bought this car a few months ago and avoided the 335i because I read about some engine problems. But the B8 A4 is even worse!

[Captain Amazing]

Although for now I love this car. Le sigh.

[Allowencer]

Man, you guys need to get your elbows dirty. Maybe I should start posting pics on rebuilding automatic transmissions lol

The oil consumption with the pistons is bad; this timing tensioner thing is cake IF you replace it BEFORE it fails. If it fails, you're playing Russian Roulette with your engine for sure.

[NEPA A8]

Looks like this might be a ongoing issue for audi... I have 2013 a5 68000 miles throwing the p0001600 code... this is not good

[Theiceman]

Looks like this might be a ongoing issue for audi... I have 2013 a5 68000 miles throwing the p0001600 code... this is not good

not news to anyone here, you have a stretched chain .... if you have vcds i would be interested in your phase adaption as im not sure at what point it throws a code. Time to get it towed to your indy .. DO NOT drive it like that and park it till you can get it towed in.

look for the chain tensioner thread , will provide days and days of reading. Likely you have the new tensioner already it has just reached max travel. If you are handy pop off the inspection port and take a pic with your cell phone and post it . bet you are on the last notch and the chain is slapping around.

surprising part is the low mileage !!! may just be a bad can sensor but i wouldn't gamble on that . what OCI do you use ?

[rcprato]

Interesting that you ask about OCI Theiceman, the shop fixing my A4 for failed tensioner says that his customers that are doing 5K OCI's are not showing signs of chain stretch like the A4's coming in at 60K/70K that went the 10K OCI per Audi

[Theiceman]

Interesting that you ask about OCI Theiceman, the shop fixing my A4 for failed tensioner says that his customers that are doing 5K OCI's are not showing signs of chain stretch like the A4's coming in at 60K/70K that went the 10K OCI per Audi

yeah i use 3K .. i know , way too excessive but i figure oil is cheap and it gives me a chance to look over my car every 3k.
when i did my rebuild i was shocked at how worn out everything was and i wasnt going to do that again.

[NEPA A8]

oci is between 5 and 10000