TD1 flag despite flashing to stock

[mik34]

I developed a coolant leak to the turbos. There is a TSB for it (2036167/1). I flashed back to stock prior to taking the car in but they still found the tune and it was flagged TD1. I'm out of my warranty (56K miles) but given there was a TSB I flashed to stock first thinking Audi might still cover the repair. To my surprise, they agreed to pay 90% of the repair (without any haggling by me) despite being out of warranty AND getting the TD1 flag. Not sure the tune had anything to do with the leak given there was a TSB, but I thought they'd balk at covering it.

So there you go, they can definitely find a tune despite flashing back to stock. Doesn't bother me since I'm out of warranty anyway, but thought it might clear up some confusion. Pleasantly surprised Audi is covering most of the cost.

[SharkNardo]

Interesting...I wonder if they can find all tunes or just certain tunes like the APR tune you have?

[Black3.2]

I developed a coolant leak to the turbos. There is a TSB for it (2036167/1). I flashed back to stock prior to taking the car in but they still found the tune and it was flagged TD1. I'm out of my warranty (56K miles) but given there was a TSB I flashed to stock first thinking Audi might still cover the repair. To my surprise, they agreed to pay 90% of the repair (without any haggling by me) despite being out of warranty AND getting the TD1 flag. Not sure the tune had anything to do with the leak given there was a TSB, but I thought they'd balk at covering it.

So there you go, they can definitely find a tune despite flashing back to stock. Doesn't bother me since I'm out of warranty anyway, but thought it might clear up some confusion. Pleasantly surprised Audi is covering most of the cost.

The one other factor could have been if the actual flash counter was not reset to 0. They may not have been able to detect the actual tune but they could see that the ECU had been flashed. As you said though out of warranty and Audi is covering 90% not a bad outcome. I would have thought that with a TSB they would cover 100% of cost regardless of warranty status. Did they say that they wont cover all because of TD1?

[a4_matt]

Nice they're covering 90% but maybe because there is a TSB, and can't prove it was your tune, they did that?

[Lateral_G]

This is a serious issue for anyone who is tuned. Just curious, did you admit the car was tuned?

[RAF_S7]

There is an interesting discussion ongoing on this sister group that may be worth reading.

Its UK focused (and relates to an S3) but its relevant.

http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads...of-woe.273664/

[Brooklyn]

Car manufacturers kill me with this TSB bullshit. If you know your product has a flaw, fix it at no cost to your customers under some sort of voluntary or rolling recall! OP, the fact that there is a TSB would have made it less likely for them to prevail in litigation on the tune being the cause of the problem. Of course, the average citizen would probably just suck up the cost rather than deal with litigation.

[quattro16]

I don't know why everyone doesn't understand that Audi can see any car thats flashed!!!! Even back to stock??? Why is this so hard for people to comprehend!! Unless you have a 100% stock ECU and swapped that in before going to the dealer and the dealer runs a spec/actual as required for almost any repair at this point it will be flagged..... And don't get mad at Audi (not op) if you wann play, you've gotta pay!!!!

[bhvrdr]

I don't know why everyone doesn't understand that Audi can see any car thats flashed!!!! Even back to stock??? Why is this so hard for people to comprehend!! Unless you have a 100% stock ECU and swapped that in before going to the dealer and the dealer runs a spec/actual as required for almost any repair at this point it will be flagged..... And don't get mad at Audi (not op) if you wann play, you've gotta pay!!!!

I wish it were that cut and dry. The thing is that there have been literally tens of thousands of people who have flashed back to stock and not been flagged on the spec/actual when the proper OEM file version was loaded onto the ECU.

There are literally only a handful of people who report being TD1 flagged after flashing back to stock and many times when the tuner looks into it there seems to be an explanation such as the incorrect OEM file revision "ie, 0002 instead of 0005" was installed. In some cases, it turns out the dealership manually flagged it (and many won't fess up to doing that).

I do agree that Audi could change their methods for detection anytime so no one should assume they are safe by flashing back to stock. Audi could implement event recording (ie, record when the car exceeded certain load conditions or rpm thresholds or past OEM max speed limiter etc) and store them in a different location of the ECU and they could catch flashed people left and right but as of now they are just running spec/actual on the files according to them. I liked doing the piggy back to be extra cautious but in fairness, I did a flash too and it was never flagged either.


I do agree with you that one shouldnt be completely in shock if they get a TD1 even after flashing back to stock but it does seem to work over 99% of the time...until Audi decides to change their methods...and then the tuners change their countermeasures...and then.... :)

Mike

[agent47]

Happened to me also. Flashed to stock and got flagged. What surprised me was that APR checked the burn logs and everything was set back exactly to how it was before tuning. What surprised me more was the flag disappearing pretty much by that evening and could never be found again on running the VIN. Here is my take on it- there is no guarantee of the flash not getting detected.. so we can try to play it by flashing to stock but still be mentally prepared to get flagged.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

[quattro16]

Audi has changed procedure recently and for the most part in the past 90% of the tech's were not running spec/actual for the majority of the cars coming in. Now that the Audi procedure has changed and spec/actual needs to be run on almost any complaint besides a service you are seeing a ton of TD1s... And it's only going to get worse. Not to mention you have tech's (myself included) who are sick and tired of fixing cars under warranty for something that simply should not be covered because of certain mods. And don't call me the bad guy as I've almost always done the right thing for the majority of the customers and have no problem banging Audi when warranted.....

[agent47]

Audi has changed procedure recently and for the most part in the past 90% of the tech's were not running spec/actual for the majority of the cars coming in. Now that the Audi procedure has changed and spec/actual needs to be run on almost any complaint besides a service you are seeing a ton of TD1s... And it's only going to get worse. Not to mention you have tech's (myself included) who are sick and tired of fixing cars under warranty for something that simply should not be covered because of certain mods. And don't call me the bad guy as I've almost always done the right thing for the majority of the customers and have no problem banging Audi when warranted.....

Well we know quite in detail about the change in procedures. There are certain dealerships that wont even take the car in for regular maintenance now if you ask them to not perform a spec/actual. They tell us upfront that any car coming for any reason will be connected to the factory systems. Also, coming to fixing cars under warranty - the customer and the dealership should be reasonable in their approach. Audi is known for failing motor mounts so blaming that on a tune ( as happened in my case ) would be unfair. However if I redline my car straight for 20 mins and blow the turbo/transmission and expect Audi to cover it, that would be unfair again.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

[seanentrust]

FWIW my friend who runs an APR dealer told me there is no way to reset the flash counter to 0, so even if you flash it back to stock you will still have a 1 on the counter.

[goreckless]

I don't know why everyone doesn't understand that Audi can see any car thats flashed!!!! Even back to stock??? Why is this so hard for people to comprehend!! Unless you have a 100% stock ECU and swapped that in before going to the dealer and the dealer runs a spec/actual as required for almost any repair at this point it will be flagged..... And don't get mad at Audi (not op) if you wann play, you've gotta pay!!!!

Oh, you engineer ECU's at Audi?

You see, in software engineering we call this black box testing. You throw different cases and variables at it seeing what happens because you do not understand the inner workings of it. Until we get an actual Audi employed developer to give us their story, you have no idea how any of this works.

[jfeger]

Oh, you engineer ECU's at Audi?

You see, in software engineering we call this black box testing. You throw different cases and variables at it seeing what happens because you do not understand the inner workings of it. Until we get an actual Audi employed developer to give us their story, you have no idea how any of this works.

You don't have to be employed by Audi to understand they have the potential to see anything. What's to say an ECM + MMI update doesn't start sending your metadata back to Audi via Audi Connect? I don't see that happening today, but Tesla has already shown that capability in their cars.

If you develop software, you should know anything is possible.

[ecpChris]

What if you are the second or third owner? Think it would be a plausible excuse to say it could have been the previous owner? Just wondering everyone's opinion

[yas]

If you buy a car CPO and its flagged TD1, you clearly have a case. Otherwise, I think Audi has the upper hand in that argument.

[goreckless]

You don't have to be employed by Audi to understand they have the potential to see anything. What's to say an ECM + MMI update doesn't start sending your metadata back to Audi via Audi Connect? I don't see that happening today, but Tesla has already shown that capability in their cars.

If you develop software, you should know anything is possible.

This isn't even close to what I said. You use the word "potential" but we don't work on potentiality, we work on facts. Hell, Audi's ECU has potential to be recording all your conversations in the car.

I'll say it again, if you didn't develop it or have documentation on the development, you don't know how it works.

[quattro16]

Oh, you engineer ECU's at Audi?

You see, in software engineering we call this black box testing. You throw different cases and variables at it seeing what happens because you do not understand the inner workings of it. Until we get an actual Audi employed developer to give us their story, you have no idea how any of this works.

LOL typical kid post. Not even sure what you're implying but I'm just teling you how it is. You flash your car and from this point forward you go to the dealer and it will be flagged TD1. There's really not much more to discuss. You can sit at your desk and theorize all you want the internal workings of an Audi ECU but I'm sure just when you figure it out, it was changed 6 months beforehand.....lol

PS. Yes I know Audi engineers....

[goreckless]

LOL typical kid post. Not even sure what you're implying but I'm just teling you how it is. You flash your car and from this point forward you go to the dealer and it will be flagged TD1. There's really not much more to discuss. You can sit at your desk and theorize all you want the internal workings of an Audi ECU but I'm sure just when you figure it out, it was changed 6 months beforehand.....lol

PS. Yes I know Audi engineers....

You don't know Audi software engineers.

Typical computer illiterate.

[jfeger]

You don't know Audi software engineers.

Typical computer illiterate.

Vol 2.0? :)

[jfeger]

Vol 2.0? :)

BTW. Since he is in the tech network for Audi...it's plausible he does know them.

[audi12345678]

I developed a coolant leak to the turbos. There is a TSB for it (2036167/1). I flashed back to stock prior to taking the car in but they still found the tune and it was flagged TD1. I'm out of my warranty (56K miles) but given there was a TSB I flashed to stock first thinking Audi might still cover the repair. To my surprise, they agreed to pay 90% of the repair (without any haggling by me) despite being out of warranty AND getting the TD1 flag. Not sure the tune had anything to do with the leak given there was a TSB, but I thought they'd balk at covering it.

So there you go, they can definitely find a tune despite flashing back to stock. Doesn't bother me since I'm out of warranty anyway, but thought it might clear up some confusion. Pleasantly surprised Audi is covering most of the cost.

I have ECU tune and I have always told the dealer that I have it and don't make any software updates, so far so good, no problems with warranty.

[VeryBadman]

Oh, you engineer ECU's at Audi?

You see, in software engineering we call this black box testing. You throw different cases and variables at it seeing what happens because you do not understand the inner workings of it. Until we get an actual Audi employed developer to give us their story, you have no idea how any of this works.

That's exactly what tuners have done to their best ability to reverse ECU back to stock by trying to produce the same outputs and parameters because they don't know everything inside exactly but what makes you think that Audi can't have a way or produce a tool to analyze what in their own blackbox?

And no, you don't have to be Audi ECU Engineer to figure out that they have the ability to do so.

[bhvrdr]

What if you are the second or third owner? Think it would be a plausible excuse to say it could have been the previous owner? Just wondering everyone's opinion

Audi has reversed the TD1 process for customers how have returned their cars to stock. They will not guarantee it and if there was already a claim pending, this does not guarantee that claim will get approved but there is a procedure in place to have a TD1 removed. There are some threads on TD1 that have this information.

FWIW my friend who runs an APR dealer told me there is no way to reset the flash counter to 0, so even if you flash it back to stock you will still have a 1 on the counter.

APR has been resetting the flash counters for several years now. They have gone the extra step to set the flash counters, flash dates, and WSC back to whatever value your own ECU was at prior to having the performance flash. This could vary by vehicle as it should. It will be the right flash counter info for your car. It has not been confirmed that AofA looks at flash counter data at this point in time though as it does not appear to be read when doing a spec vs actual.

LOL typical kid post. Not even sure what you're implying but I'm just teling you how it is. You flash your car and from this point forward you go to the dealer and it will be flagged TD1. There's really not much more to discuss. You can sit at your desk and theorize all you want the internal workings of an Audi ECU but I'm sure just when you figure it out, it was changed 6 months beforehand.....lol

PS. Yes I know Audi engineers....

Again, this just isnt the case. There are literally thousands of cars that have had GFF run on them and been hooked up to the mothership and not been TD1. You will find a total of about 10 people who have been flagged after having the stock file flashed on all the forums. All the rest including myself havent been. So is flashing back to stock a 100% guarantee you wont be flagged? No, its not. It can still happen. In most cases it doesnt though (over 99% it seems).

Mike

[Djpeaksd]

Well this conversation bums be out....

[VeryBadman]

Well this conversation bums be out....

I already went ahead with the tune and I will be due for service next month. I will be flashing back to stock but will also communicate that I have tune. Usually my dealership is cool with that so we will see what's gonna happen.

[Brooklyn]

I doubt they care who tuned it - just the fact that it has been tuned beyond the factory parameters.

[quattro16]

Audi has reversed the TD1 process for customers how have returned their cars to stock. They will not guarantee it and if there was already a claim pending, this does not guarantee that claim will get approved but there is a procedure in place to have a TD1 removed. There are some threads on TD1 that have this information.





APR has been resetting the flash counters for several years now. They have gone the extra step to set the flash counters, flash dates, and WSC back to whatever value your own ECU was at prior to having the performance flash. This could vary by vehicle as it should. It will be the right flash counter info for your car. It has not been confirmed that AofA looks at flash counter data at this point in time though as it does not appear to be read when doing a spec vs actual.



Again, this just isnt the case. There are literally thousands of cars that have had GFF run on them and been hooked up to the mothership and not been TD1. You will find a total of about 10 people who have been flagged after having the stock file flashed on all the forums. All the rest including myself havent been. So is flashing back to stock a 100% guarantee you wont be flagged? No, its not. It can still happen. In most cases it doesnt though (over 99% it seems).

Mike

Just so you know GFF is not the same as spec/actual nor does it run automatically. Yes I can run every car that comes through with GFF and send the log in and fix the car and not get flagged.

Spec/actual test plan has to be manually selected and ran. More dealers are making it mandatory so claims don't get kicked. And not only that but with every Audi tester update that comes out it's being implemented into most test plans first so we have no choice.....

[aysix]

Audi ECU engineers! You guys are saying as if they made their own ecu/developed their own software.

[CanuckRS]

As an aside here, what are the issues, if any with tuning the ECU on a leased vehicle? If you're handing it back to them at the end, it's their problem, not yours. This assumes no major repairs needed prior to end of lease.
tia

[VeryBadman]

Audi ECU engineers! You guys are saying as if they made their own ecu/developed their own software.

They definitely don't make their own hardware but as for software, at least the lead engineer must be Audi's employee. As much people like to think that now a day the corporations outsource this kind of job to oversea and nothing is made in house anymore, the statements on the back of iPhone that "Designed In Cupertino" is actually true for both hardware and software.

[bomb39]

I already went ahead with the tune and I will be due for service next month. I will be flashing back to stock but will also communicate that I have tune. Usually my dealership is cool with that so we will see what's gonna happen.

I'll be asking you more about this tonight!

[bhvrdr]

Just so you know GFF is not the same as spec/actual nor does it run automatically. Yes I can run every car that comes through with GFF and send the log in and fix the car and not get flagged.

Spec/actual test plan has to be manually selected and ran. More dealers are making it mandatory so claims don't get kicked. And not only that but with every Audi tester update that comes out it's being implemented into most test plans first so we have no choice.....

Audi's current dealership level diagnostic equipment allows for automatic detection of unauthorized ECM tuning on many current vehicle models. Every new model year will bring more vehicles which will automatically be detected; this detection runs automatically in the background of the normal diagnostic process, and will be completely transparent to the technician working on the vehicle.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...eady-seen-this

[Serpent]

So I will say this:

My 16 S6 that I recently traded in to get my RS7 was tuned. Everyone knew it was tuned. I flashed it back to stock, dealer did spec actual scan, car came back stock, I traded the car and bought RS7.

I did drive the car about 300 miles after I flashed it back to stock - not sure if that makes a difference. I don't know why it would.

[yas]

I did drive the car about 300 miles after I flashed it back to stock - not sure if that makes a difference. I don't know why it would.

It actually may make a difference. Conceivable that Audi is looking at ECm-recorded numbesr that may suggest that ECM modification was performed. Things like ignition counts, etc…

[VeryBadman]

So I will say this:

My 16 S6 that I recently traded in to get my RS7 was tuned. Everyone knew it was tuned. I flashed it back to stock, dealer did spec actual scan, car came back stock, I traded the car and bought RS7.

I did drive the car about 300 miles after I flashed it back to stock - not sure if that makes a difference. I don't know why it would.

Good info, I may try what you did before taking my car in for next service then. Better time it and set a notification so that I won't forget though.

[BoostFrenzy]

The only thing that should change in 300 miles are readiness flags for emission controls... interesting.

[agent47]

So I will say this:

My 16 S6 that I recently traded in to get my RS7 was tuned. Everyone knew it was tuned. I flashed it back to stock, dealer did spec actual scan, car came back stock, I traded the car and bought RS7.

I did drive the car about 300 miles after I flashed it back to stock - not sure if that makes a difference. I don't know why it would.

That might make sense like others are saying. The car got flagged, but then later )per the flag removal instructions) the flag fell off seeing the car being stock . We checked at the time of trading in (vin was run in the system) and the car came up clean. I am not sure what happened

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

[mik34]

I did not tell them about the tune ahead of time but didn't hide it after. I'm sure if I felt like fighting it, they'd have to pay for the entire repair but it's certainly not worth it for this.

I just wanted to point out that they can indeed see a tune after flashing back to stock. This was news to me, but I really don't care now that I'm at 56K miles and out of warranty.

Gotta pay to play.