So, I feel this indicates my torque converter is a goner.

[KingWulfgar]

UPDATE: Partially solved down below. tl;dr: Still have a TC problem, but it's minor, only happens in cold weather, and does not seem to be related in any way to the hard shifting (snub mount fixed that) or the stumbling (ended up being a bad ignition coil).

2006 A4 2.0T quattro here. All winter long, I experienced a lot of the RPM surge under light throttle especially when the car was cold. At some point in there, I had my fluid replaced (Euro shop, genuine Audi fluid). It helped...a little.

Once the weather warmed up, that completely went away, but was replaced with a new symptom. I've been getting hard shifts from 2 > 3 and from 4 < 3 and a little hard shifting into 5th. Always once the car/transmission fully heats up. It's also mostly in D or S--not as evident in manual shift mode (although, it has happened). No more RPM bounce, though. So I started to worry there's something more wrong with the transmission than previously thought.

Finally got a chance to log some data with VAGCOM. Here's just a snippet of the log file:



According to Audi's TSB on this issue, slippage should not exceed 120RPM when the torque converter is in control mode (regulated, I assume) and should not have any slip in closed mode. You can see just from this snippet when I get on it, it is slipping fairly significantly. This was a WOT (you can see accelerator position) uphill getting on an interstate. At some point in the power band, I could feel like something was slipping and the engine RPM dipped just a bit. This is just a small section of the logs, but there are several places it goes >120RPM in TCC mode and probably half the times the TC is closed, it's got numbers > 0.

I assume this pretty much proves that I need to see about getting my TC replaced? Is the hard shifting a symptom of this too or do I have an issue with something else in the transmission too? I didn't notice any specific TC-related numbers that correlated exactly with the hard shifts in the logs, but it's hard to match those up exactly.

Lastly, is there any way to determine if I'm on the latest software revision? I can see my software revision for the TCM (8E1 910 156 C), but I can't find anywhere on the web that shows the latest per Audi.


tl;dr I'm pretty sure my torque converter is boned--I just want to make sure before I spend this kind of money.

[Silveravant]

At WOT I think the torque converter would be unlocked. Hard shifts wouldn't be caused by a bad torque converter.

[KingWulfgar]

While I'm certainly no expert on torque converters, I'm trying to learn. There are two different terminologies I see floating around. VCDS uses closed, open, and regulated. I've heard locked, unlocked, and control as well. The logs pretty clearly show the converter in closed mode (I assume that means "locked") when on it hard and open mode ("unlocked"?) when the throttle is light or coasting. It also goes into regulated (control) mode a good bit. Like I said, I'm no expert, but that's what I'm seeing from the logs. This is just a snippet. It's consistent throughout the whole 5-8 minutes I logged it.

To be honest, I've been trying to make heads or tails of the many threads complaining about this issue. There are some good explanations in this one that were leading me to believe my "rough shifting" could be bad locking. That's why I mentioned it.

Ideally, if I'm going to get this Tiptronic fixed, I'd like to do it once and know it's fixed and I'm having a hard time finding a reputable shop to take it to.

One last thing. Complicating all this is the fact that I don't have any codes. I know eventually, it will fail for good and throw a code, but I'd really like to get it cleaned up before that so it's not an "emergency."

[seanf86]

I believe regulated is partial lockup so the TCM is regulating slippage. The hard shifting could be due to fluid temp, I'm not familiar how hot the Audi trans run but most cars are in the 70-80C range, yours is 90+ C so it may bang into gear to reduce slippage and generate less heat. If the torque converters failing to lock up it will heat the fluid up and break it down. If you re doing to torque converter maybe talk to Scott at advanceautomotion, I got my torque converter for my B5s4 from him, its a quality piece and much less than OEM but its not questionable like some of the $150 remans you see online.

edit I see I've wandered into the B7 area, most of what I said should still apply however I did mine on the 5hp19 in my B5s4.

[KingWulfgar]

I believe regulated is partial lockup so the TCM is regulating slippage. The hard shifting could be due to fluid temp, I'm not familiar how hot the Audi trans run but most cars are in the 70-80C range, yours is 90+ C so it may bang into gear to reduce slippage and generate less heat. If the torque converters failing to lock up it will heat the fluid up and break it down. If you re doing to torque converter maybe talk to Scott at advanceautomotion, I got my torque converter for my B5s4 from him, its a quality piece and much less than OEM but its not questionable like some of the $150 remans you see online.

edit I see I've wandered into the B7 area, most of what I said should still apply however I did mine on the 5hp19 in my B5s4.

Thanks for the feedback. I did question the high temp and was having a hard time finding specific temp numbers by searching. It sounded like 90oC was fairly normal on a ZF from my Googling, but I wasn't sure what temp they usually run in the B7s. I have thought about changing the fluid again to see what it looks like after about 6 months and see if it's breaking down, nasty.

Anyone know what the normal operating temp of the transmission is on a B7 tiptronic? Anyone have a VAGCOM that they can check when they get a chance?

[JDillon15]

I read somewhere about the OEM torque converter being the wrong size for this platform, being a design flaw on Audi's part. That said, I don't remember where I read it and there is plenty of misinformation on here, so take that as a grain of salt.

I also had torque converer issues on my first B7 so I feel your pain! :( Definitely got a manual on my second B7 =D

[KingWulfgar]

I read somewhere about the OEM torque converter being the wrong size for this platform, being a design flaw on Audi's part. That said, I don't remember where I read it and there is plenty of misinformation on here, so take that as a grain of salt.

I also had torque converer issues on my first B7 so I feel your pain! :( Definitely got a manual on my second B7 =D

Don't get me started! I love the convenience of the auto (and at the time, I needed to go that route to accomodate my wife), but am sure wishing I'd gotten a manual at this point. I've gotten about 60k miles out of it, but that still seems low when you consider what I'm hearing the fix might end up costing.

[JDillon15]

Don't get me started! I love the convenience of the auto (and at the time, I needed to go that route to accomodate my wife), but am sure wishing I'd gotten a manual at this point. I've gotten about 60k miles out of it, but that still seems low when you consider what I'm hearing the fix might end up costing.

Yeah IIRC the fix was a few thousand.

Still not as bad as the CVT. HA

[KingWulfgar]

Yeah IIRC the fix was a few thousand.

Still not as bad as the CVT. HA

No kidding! Thankfully, I knew enough to stay away from those (I hated the one I drove). Besides, IMO, if it's not quattro, why buy an Audi?

[JDillon15]

No kidding! Thankfully, I knew enough to stay away from those (I hated the one I drove). Besides, IMO, if it's not quattro, why buy an Audi?

EXACTLY

[B72011]

It could also be a mechatronic issue with malfunctioning solenoids in the trans control panel? Sorry bud. Drive it till it blows then get a used low miles unit--best and cheapest option. Otherwise look for a shop with a full 4K rebuild if you plan on keeping the car till 250K.

[2kwik4u]

I'm at 185k now with the same problem. Usually goes away with warm fluid. I've been "dealing with it" for the last 100k miles. Ultimately for me it wasn't a big enough aggravation to warrant a replacement or repair. I swapped the fluid some time back (around 120k if I remember right), and it got better for a bit, but came back the next winter and has not left since. Just like the engine, let it warm up a bit before you really wail on it, and it shouldn't leave you walking, just annoyed at wonky shift patterns.

[KingWulfgar]

I'm at 185k now with the same problem. Usually goes away with warm fluid. I've been "dealing with it" for the last 100k miles. Ultimately for me it wasn't a big enough aggravation to warrant a replacement or repair. I swapped the fluid some time back (around 120k if I remember right), and it got better for a bit, but came back the next winter and has not left since. Just like the engine, let it warm up a bit before you really wail on it, and it shouldn't leave you walking, just annoyed at wonky shift patterns.

Good to know I could make it that far. Honestly, I only plan to keep the car another 40k miles or so (that would be about another 4 years for my driving). I love the car, but by that time, it's going to be 15 years old and it's not like it's anything special--just a run of the mill B7 in extra clean condition.

I probably wouldn't bother if it wasn't for the shifting issues. The surging went away when the temp warmed up and it's only cold about 4 months out of the year here. I could live with the surging. I might try changing the fluid again. It's just so dang expensive and if it doesn't do any good, it's just money down the drain.

[Okedokey]

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ld-engine-only

[wildcat333]

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...-at-low-speeds


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[KingWulfgar]

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ld-engine-only

That one doesn't really fit my symptoms quite right. Probably worth checking/cleaning the IAC anyway, though. Thanks!

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...-at-low-speeds

So, that started out rather interesting. I did actually get my vacuum pump replaced around the first of this year. My N80 had been replaced a few months previously because they thought that was the cause of my large EVAP leak (spoiler alert, it wasn't). The vacuum pump had been leaking for a while (probably at least a year). I'm pretty sure I was still getting some surging after that, but to be honest, since I didn't even connect those two things, I wasn't paying super close attention. I know the surging cleared up pretty soon after that as the temperature warmed up here in Georgia. I guess I could wait and see if it comes back next winter.

In either case, I still have the logs and the hard shifting. From reading through your thread, comparing my symptoms, and looking at what I think the VCDS logs are telling me, it does seem like I have the same issue. However, not knowing much about TCs (other than what I've read--mostly--here and the Audi TSB for the issue), I'm not 100% sure I'm ready to bet on it yet. Might be a better plan to try changing the fluid again and inspecting it to see what it looks like. I went back and looked and it was actually nearly a year ago that I had it done. It was also nearly $500 (they replaced the filter and the pan gasket and yes they used Audi fluid). I think I'm going to either try DIY (a little leery of that, but I think I could manage it) or take it somewhere else.

It might even be worth taking some logs and trying to get a little face time with an Audi tech to see what his gut feeling is. I would honestly pay $3k right now to fix it if I knew it would fix it. The problem I'm having is betting on that. I'm not sure I can afford all the steps for an Audi dealership to rule out everything else in addition to that! Especially if it's prone to fail again sooner or later.

Thanks for replying with that wildcat--in all my searching about the issue, I hadn't come across your thread. So, 30k miles later, the replacement TC had gone bad? I assume you were out of warranty by then?

[Gin+]

I'd consider giving ZF a call. I've heard their support is decent. Also, this guy knows his shit http://kansascitytdi.com.

My guess would be that the hard shifts are due to issues with the valve body. Not to say your tc isn't bad too.

[ADCS]

I have this problem as well. I really really hate owning an automagic. I will try to do a log similar to yours so that you can compare the open/close behavior. It would be useful to see the same from a tip car that doesn't have any issues...

For your hard shifting, a fluid change will help. In addition to using Audi fluid you need to make sure the correct color is used. There is slight differences in the fluid based on which software is in your TCM.

In any case, try re-adapting the kick down (also clears the trans of learned settings). This should significantly improve your shifting.

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index...Basic_Settings

[wildcat333]

Op - I was under CPO warranty luckily at the time. I still get rpm surges in winter when cold start up. Lasts about 10-15 minS


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[KingWulfgar]

Sorry for the old thread bump, but I wanted to update it so anyone who finds it hopefully gets something useful from it. I still believe I have an issue with the torque converter, but it's minor, is only noticeable in the cold weather, and not causing any real issues, so I'm going to just let it go. My big complaint was the hard shifting and I am optimistic I have solved it (driven it 2-3 days so far). Check your snub mount! Mine was still the OEM one and to my knowledge, it was original. It was one of those things on my list, but so far down, I wasn't thinking of it. I swapped it this weekend when I did my valve cover gasket and coils and it was shrunken, cracked in half, and came apart in pieces in my hand. I replaced it with the poly mount from ECS and the hard shifts around 3rd gear have gone away. I can still feel a little bump sometimes, but I can't honestly say it hasn't always been that way. If I wasn't trying to feel it, I wouldn't even notice it.

Also, the slippage I was feeling seems to have been a bad coil pack. Finally got it to throw a CEL with a misfire on cyl 1, swapped coils 1 and 3 (my most recently replaced one), and it misfired on cyl 3. Classic coil pack. Replaced all 4 and it's been pulling strong at WOT up to the rev limiter.

I still wonder about the normal operating temp of the ZF tranny (mine seems high, but I don't know) and eventually I will have to get that TC replaced if I keep the car that long, but at least it's comfortable to drive again and I'm not worrying I'm gonna shift my transmission right out of the car.

[drmonkey]

I have had rough shifts and I get an RPM surge around 1800-2000 but once I get on a freeway and get out of that RPM range then it goes away. I know I need to change the fluid as I'm at 105k and I don't think it's ever been done.