supercharger cooling techniques & options"

[Loe]

Hi all,

After reviewing many online options to supplement the OEM heat exchanger with another exchanger, I soon realized that you really can't fit too many exchangers above our crash bar that IMHO would make a significant impact in IAT's without replacing the entire heat exchanger with a larger one, similar to what you see in other kit, plus I dont' have the time to dedicate in researching it anymore but I do encourage others to try to go the custom route. With that being said, I will end up going to full AWE Coldfront w/ pump route; I like the idea of the pump being functional at idle speed, and also when the accessories are on without the engine needing to be on to circulate the coolant. Currently with the OEM unit, if I shut off the engine after a run, IAT's will creep up to 75C even after sitting for 15 minutes that I find it better to leave the engine on w/ the hood opened. Although I'm not 100% keen on a divorced system with the risk of running low on coolant w/o manually checking every so often, I do like the concept of being able to add ice cubes to cool down the coolant.

My question is, has anyone been able to log before/after of IAT's when adding ice cubes to gauge its effectiveness? I was thinking instead of running ice cubes, why not take a few icepacks to wrap around the reservoir as my understanding is that it does flow in/out of the reservoir? I searched but no luck on finding anything in regards to cooling the reservoir itself (would be neat to be able to run the A/C line through the reservoir though....

With that being said, anything that will help IAT's will be fine, particularly at the strips. Currently in mid 80's weather at idle, I see 50-53C, and once moving it moves down to about 47C. If I go WOT, it'll jump up to 85C by the end of 4th gear

[infinkc]

if your going as far as ice cubes for strip runs, why not create a standalone system that you bring with you that you connect to the supercharger loop to cycle coolant with new cold coolant in like a ice chest full of ice.

[Dudemans4]

Research an icebox ctsv guys use them. mount it in the trunk plum it and put a pump to send the coolant back up front. Not only the ice adding feature but the extra capacity of fluid is a big plus also.

[theswoleguy]

Hi all,

After reviewing many online options to supplement the OEM heat exchanger with another exchanger, I soon realized that you really can't fit too many exchangers above our crash bar that IMHO would make a significant impact in IAT's without replacing the entire heat exchanger with a larger one, similar to what you see in other kit, plus I dont' have the time to dedicate in researching it anymore but I do encourage others to try to go the custom route. With that being said, I will end up going to full AWE Coldfront w/ pump route; I like the idea of the pump being functional at idle speed, and also when the accessories are on without the engine needing to be on to circulate the coolant. Currently with the OEM unit, if I shut off the engine after a run, IAT's will creep up to 75C even after sitting for 15 minutes that I find it better to leave the engine on w/ the hood opened. Although I'm not 100% keen on a divorced system with the risk of running low on coolant w/o manually checking every so often, I do like the concept of being able to add ice cubes to cool down the coolant.

My question is, has anyone been able to log before/after of IAT's when adding ice cubes to gauge its effectiveness? I was thinking instead of running ice cubes, why not take a few icepacks to wrap around the reservoir as my understanding is that it does flow in/out of the reservoir? I searched but no luck on finding anything in regards to cooling the reservoir itself (would be neat to be able to run the A/C line through the reservoir though....

With that being said, anything that will help IAT's will be fine, particularly at the strips. Currently in mid 80's weather at idle, I see 50-53C, and once moving it moves down to about 47C. If I go WOT, it'll jump up to 85C by the end of 4th gear

http://killerchiller.com/products/un...l-parallel-kit

[theswoleguy]

I kind of just want to give the heat exchanger by them a shot

[Loe]

http://killerchiller.com/products/un...l-parallel-kit

I saw this earlier, but I am alittle unsure that I want to dig into our A/C system at the moment and not wanting to be a pioneer of this lol

and I do have questions on this kit. IIRC, our A?C compressor turns off at higher throttle openings (you can feel the air blowing out hotter), how will this system work at WOT?

[BlownOne]

Dudeman has the right idea loe...a lot of guys either buy one or you can make one with a 2-3 gal fuel cell and pump mounted in the trunk running up front and entering the heat exchanger system. Even without ice, the extra volume of fluid takes longer to heat up (similar to boiling water on a stove, the more water the longer it takes to boil) and it produces lower/consistent iats.

Will

[AudBoost]

http://killerchiller.com/products/un...l-parallel-kit

Been waiting for someone to take this route. I know SMS used this on their twin charged vehicle but never heard how effective it was. I'd be interested to see someone try this.

[Loe]

Dudeman has the right idea loe...a lot of guys either buy one or you can make one with a 2-3 gal fuel cell and pump mounted in the trunk running up front and entering the heat exchanger system. Even without ice, the extra volume of fluid takes longer to heat up (similar to boiling water on a stove, the more water the longer it takes to boil) and it produces lower/consistent iats.

Will

our platform really needs more options on integrated cooling systems such as this, unfortunately the progression seems very slow.

[Woodybangs]

E55 guys use the killer chiller and a trunk tank setup. Both are effective. The killer chiller is really fast at recovery but can't hold low temps forever. A trunk tank system should be easy to rig up.

http://weistec.com/media/productfile...trunk_tank.pdf

http://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/5...beginning.html

[613B6]

Edit: lol beat me to it.
Something basic like this would do wonders: http://weistec.com/media/productfile...trunk_tank.pdf

[Loe]

E55 guys use the killer chiller and a trunk tank setup. Both are effective. The killer chiller is really fast at recovery but can't hold low temps forever. A trunk tank system should be easy to rig up.

http://weistec.com/media/productfile...trunk_tank.pdf

http://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/5...beginning.html

I figured the same with the killer chiller, being able to idle with the A/C blasting would help, but I would not be sure of it in terms of IAT's at WOT where a larger heat exchanger may make a bigger impact, especially if the A/C compressor shuts off. Can someone confirm if our A/C compressor does shut off at WOT? Additionally, what about condensation issue's when running the A/C at the track? It's a great idea, just looking for additional information for others.

[Woodybangs]

No track is going to let you dump water all over the Tarmac. The trunk tank with a complete separate system is the best way to go. You can just replace the ice in between runs and keep the pump on to keep coolant moving while the car is off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hckymstr19]

So now loe, I was looking for to do what you doing and everytime i look at awe's kit I feel like I can price together the same stuff for like half the price. Is there something I'm missing or is at simple as a heat exchanger, pump, reservoir and some tubing?

[Loe]

So now loe, I was looking for to do what you doing and everytime i look at awe's kit I feel like I can price together the same stuff for like half the price. Is there something I'm missing or is at simple as a heat exchanger, pump, reservoir and some tubing?

that's basically it. When I priced it out, it was as follows when not including the pump:

a decent size H/E $650
Some quality pipe/fittings/clamps/hoses/mounts $75
an aluminum reservoir $150

about $875 for a decent DYI system. You can probably just bypass the aluminum reservoir and not divorce the system and still come up to $725, $200 or so cheaper than an AWE H/E w/ all of the proper hoses and mounting systems. My current issue is that I don't have the time (which itself = money) to dedicate sourcing everything and hoping it fits right. I was on the fence as it really isn't rocket science to figure it out, but when I read that the upgraded pump will run w/o the engine running and also at lower speeds/idle, it made my decision easier.

I would still research into the chiller killer set-up though, because in all reality it would work on at a drag-strip if you cool the IAT's off on the sidelines. Neat concept indeed.

[Loe]

Okay so I did some research on the E55 platform, seems as though the killer chiller keeps IAT's at bay, 40-50F in hot FL days where ambient is above 95F. However, in order for it to be effective, you must disconnect and bypass the heat exchanger (aka intercooler)...

The theory behind this and the developer also recommends this is because the heat exchanger is hotter than ambient temperatures, higher than the fluid that comes out of the S/C, therefore making the killer chiller less effective at maintaining IAT's when the A/C is running.

The downside to this? IAT's creep up fast, judging by the reviews, it can reach beyond 150F in one run (when starting at 50F), that's almost a 100 degree delta! This was because the A/C compressor doesn't function at WOT. Additionally, they saw 8-7F hotter cabin temperatures when running killer chiller during the summer, actually read in some cases of the A/C not working at all as it taxed the condenser in hotter temps... The good news is that the IAT's quickly cool down as long as you remember to turn on the A/C after a run. Also, the unit will only work to control initial IAT's as long as the A/C is running, so that means you run the risk of getting condensation dripping from your car as your at the staging lanes.

Also keep in mind that if you live in an area where temps get too cold, the A/C compressor doesn't work below a certain temperature, which you may then run into S/C overheating issue's as this system does recommend you to bypass any heat exchanger for its full benefits.

For consistency, I feel it's better to get a proper cooling system with an upgraded heat exchanger, pump (that can run when the engine if off), and an easily accessible reservoir. However, the killer chiller may be a good option for those who don't take it to the strips often?

[theswoleguy]

What about thermo electric coolers?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Google's ProjectFI

[Loe]

What about thermo electric coolers?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Google's ProjectFI

I'm voting you to start your own custom 3.0t cooling company You seem to know alot of cool stuff!!

I wonder if one could attach this to an aftermarket aluminum reservoir? http://www.amazon.com/TEC1-12706-The...lectric+cooler

[theswoleguy]

You have to heat sink the hot side pretty well but not sure if there's sufficient cooling under the hood

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Google's ProjectFI

[Loe]

Heres a thread with a video, look a the last video of a 35-120mph run as the IAT's jumped from 59F to 138F (79F), which is still reasonable and would still result in full ignition timing of 28-29 degrees by 4th gear assuming our S/C's don't generate more heat than this E55 does. It does make me wonder what dual-pulley set-ups will jump to from doing a full 1-4 gears at the dragstrip with a killer chiller set-up; mine usually does a 35-40C (63-72F) delta with the OEM exchanger and I've heard of only 15-20C (27-36F) delta with upgraded cooling systems.

http://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/5...my-review.html

[jimrobbington]

I know it's technically intended for hot compressed air and FMIC, but is there a way to use a cryo sprayer on this engine?

[Loe]

I know it's technically intended for hot compressed air and FMIC, but is there a way to use a cryo sprayer on this engine?

Should work if you spray the intercooler or on a divorce system the reservoir itself.

-60F in three seconds! LOL http://www.amazon.com/Max-Pro-MF-655...ords=cryospray

[jimrobbington]

I don't have much to offer lol, but figured any idea is a good one at this point hopefully. Plus I'm always the HP on budget kinda guy, so I'm interested to see where this all goes

[Loe]

I actually might try the freeze spray, its not a bad idea, and not that expensive either:

http://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Liq...5%3A2470955011

[cspcrx]

Instead of ice can you use dry ice? Won't have issues at the track, colder than ice, lighter than ice and easily stored in a cooler like ice?

[DBL R]

Instead of ice can you use dry ice? Won't have issues at the track, colder than ice, lighter than ice and easily stored in a cooler like ice?

Ever made a dry ice bomb before? Now imagine that rapid release of CO2 in a larger closed system.....

[hodrosS42001]

Finally people thinking outside of the box here.. Cooling is absolutely the issue. Back in the day we saw zero timing pull until fourth gear on racegas.. Heat eventually wins.. I remember putting bags of ice in trash bags on the supercharger in between runs. Worked well. Straight e85 support would do wonders for this car.

[Loe]

I don't have much to offer lol, but figured any idea is a good one at this point hopefully. Plus I'm always the HP on budget kinda guy, so I'm interested to see where this all goes

a set-up would cost almost $400:

http://www.amazon.com/DEI-080108-Cry...SIN=B0039Z5YFY

but there could be cheaper methods? I would caution though as its designed more for air-to-air intercoolers as this may freeze the coolant after extended use.

[chaos2984]

a set-up would cost almost $400:

http://www.amazon.com/DEI-080108-Cry...SIN=B0039Z5YFY

but there could be cheaper methods? I would caution though as its designed more for air-to-air intercoolers as this may freeze the coolant after extended use.

This is my thought as well. Get a set up and spray it on the exchanger. maybe have a set up to where it starts to spray after temps reach a certain temp. Well as long as your moving the coolant around enough I wouldn't think about it freezing up. As long as you divorce the system and cut the coolant right. a normal 50/50 fill is what -30F. CO2 spray would cut the temps fast and cheap. I have seen a 50whp difference on a turbo car on a dyno from spray vs non spray of c02 on IC. But Im sure it would benefit us more with the heat exchange has a better coefficient due to air to water exchange.

[BlownOne]

I actually might try the freeze spray, its not a bad idea, and not that expensive either:

http://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Liq...5%3A2470955011

Brake kleen or any brake parts cleaner will do the same thing for about $5 from your local auto parts store brotha...we used to do that to our air/air intercoolers on evos in the staging lanes at the track.

[OnEaNgRyBuNnY]

Okay so I did some research on the E55 platform, seems as though the killer chiller keeps IAT's at bay, 40-50F in hot FL days where ambient is above 95F. However, in order for it to be effective, you must disconnect and bypass the heat exchanger (aka intercooler)...

The theory behind this and the developer also recommends this is because the heat exchanger is hotter than ambient temperatures, higher than the fluid that comes out of the S/C, therefore making the killer chiller less effective at maintaining IAT's when the A/C is running.

The downside to this? IAT's creep up fast, judging by the reviews, it can reach beyond 150F in one run (when starting at 50F), that's almost a 100 degree delta! This was because the A/C compressor doesn't function at WOT. Additionally, they saw 8-7F hotter cabin temperatures when running killer chiller during the summer, actually read in some cases of the A/C not working at all as it taxed the condenser in hotter temps... The good news is that the IAT's quickly cool down as long as you remember to turn on the A/C after a run. Also, the unit will only work to control initial IAT's as long as the A/C is running, so that means you run the risk of getting condensation dripping from your car as your at the staging

I wonder if this is to produce the largest delta? I still wonder if the combo of the two would keep the lowest average temps. I mean, if you can get them temps fairly low, but the HE does a significantly better job at suppressing the rise of temp on a hard run, it is certainly possible to have lower temps overall with positive results.

I was also poking around on their site and messages them asking for some info (never got a response) and saw they do have a switch/solenoid valve kit for bypassing the a/c coolant leading into the killerchiller. I also wonder how affective adding a second valve to the s/c coolant loop off the same switch to select between HE and Killerchiller would be to use each in the environment in which they perform the best. Certainly wouldn't be a cheap setup, though...

[BlownOne]

Instead of ice can you use dry ice? Won't have issues at the track, colder than ice, lighter than ice and easily stored in a cooler like ice?

Ever made a dry ice bomb before? Now imagine that rapid release of CO2 in a larger closed system.....

Yea dry ice releases gasses so that's not going to work in the system, but you could sit it on the charger between runs

[Loe]

Brake kleen or any brake parts cleaner will do the same thing for about $5 from your local auto parts store brotha...we used to do that to our air/air intercoolers on evos in the staging lanes at the track.

this looks pretty cool http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/c...ff+#fragment-3

the one I ordered from amazon I think is a liquid nitrogen to simply freeze the intercooler while the engine is running and pumping coolant, but the above may work?

[chaos2984]

this looks pretty cool http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/c...ff+#fragment-3

the one I ordered from amazon I think is a liquid nitrogen to simply freeze the intercooler while the engine is running and pumping coolant, but the above may work?

I don't know if I would want to spray that stuff on my exchanger it would leave a mess. To bad we can't get liquid nitrogen lol

[Loe]

I wish I could modify the title of the thread to tips and tricks for s/c cooling

[Loe]

I don't know if I would want to spray that stuff on my exchanger it would leave a mess. To bad we can't get liquid nitrogen lol

Yeah, this CRC product is a mess to apply! I hope the freeze spray I purchased on amazon is cleaner and works faster. The CRC product you have to spray for at least 20 seconds before the can even gets cold, but it's never freezing to the touch. The freeze product I ordered on Amazon says on the bottle 2-3 seconds and hoping will actually freeze at -60F as advertised...

With that being said, please take this as a grain of salt as it's not entirely scientific or controlled, however this was done back-to-back using VCDS in 83F on the same stretch of road.

At Idle: IAT before 52.50C, IAT after 50.25C
steady state 45mph: IAT before 48C, IAT after 45.75C
mild 35% load acceleration from 10-45mph: IAT before 44.75C, IAT after 42C

hmm, interesting nonetheless, now I can't wait to use the Freeze product to see if it actually freezes the intercooler

[torinalth]

some of you guys are on the right track. Personally, I'm looking to just to the heat exchanger and not the pump or reservoir. So get a bit more from the system i'm going to consider a simple water sprayer to mist the exchanger. should be cheap, easy, and should work pretty well. Will not get below ambient, but should keep it closer to ambient. was common in the subaru world. If you want to go lower, could always change the water system to a nitrous system and spray it that way. Don't need to reinvent the wheel.

[chaos2984]

some of you guys are on the right track. Personally, I'm looking to just to the heat exchanger and not the pump or reservoir. So get a bit more from the system i'm going to consider a simple water sprayer to mist the exchanger. should be cheap, easy, and should work pretty well. Will not get below ambient, but should keep it closer to ambient. was common in the subaru world. If you want to go lower, could always change the water system to a nitrous system and spray it that way. Don't need to reinvent the wheel.

To add to this. I would spray C02 vs N2O. Im sure CO2 is cheaper than N2O and easier to find. Especially now that homebrew is on the upward trend.

[Woodybangs]

No need to reinvent the wheel here. I came over to this platform from an E55. Everything discussed in this thread has been used for years on the MB's. A divorced system with a trunk tank is about the best way to go. Any of the available larger heat exchangers + a trunk tank will do the trick. The good systems have the extra pump located inside the trunk tank. Just need to find how to route the lines up front and boom you are set to do. I'd love to do it but it's not in the works for me until next year.

[Loe]

some of you guys are on the right track. Personally, I'm looking to just to the heat exchanger and not the pump or reservoir. So get a bit more from the system i'm going to consider a simple water sprayer to mist the exchanger. should be cheap, easy, and should work pretty well. Will not get below ambient, but should keep it closer to ambient. was common in the subaru world. If you want to go lower, could always change the water system to a nitrous system and spray it that way. Don't need to reinvent the wheel.

An issue I can see with simply spraying the exchanger is that you'll only cool the coolant thats currently inside the exchanger at idle or low speeds since my understanding is that the pump doesn't operate until the car moves.