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  1. #1
    Active Member Two Rings
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    2002 S6 TB/WP repair thread

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    This thread is to be a record for myself of the repairs as well as to be able to share with you all and maybe help someone else in the future with similar issues.

    It started a little while after I got the car, as far as I can remember, the car was not making the noise when I got it. sometime around January or February this year I started to hear a sort of a clunky rattle noise, consistent in frequency and only audible at idle and just off-idle (but below 1000 rpm still). the noise was especially noticeable at first cold-start and also after the engine had gotten nice and hot after my 30 mile commute and I had pulled into my driveway. It seemingly didn't make the noise (more likely I just didn't notice it) after the engine had warmed up a bit and during the drive. My initial suspicion was the fan clutch given the seeming relation to engine temp and speed.

    Sounded like an easy enough repair and would give me the chance to put the front carrier into service position for the first time (which was actually a lot easier than I thought it would be). Also was a good point to replace the drive belt as well since I had noticed a lot of cracking and missing groove-sections during the last oil change I did.



    After pulling off the fan and clutch I inspected it and it actually seemed OK, but oh well, I had already ordered a replacement so a new one was going on anyway.
    Just before that, though, was when I discovered the true culprit of the noise. It was as I took tension off the belt that I noticed something very strange, the crank pulley was wobbling like it was loose as i loosened the belt!
    There was a lot of play on the crank pulley, something like a quarter inch of slop back and forth along the axis of rotation. I took a video of it.



    That is definitely the cause of the noise that I heard, and it makes sense why (at least to me). At idle engine speed there is enough time between power strokes for the engine speed vary slightly and for a long enough duration that the pulley is able to slop back and forth as it's loaded then unloaded, etc. But that would be much less pronounced at higher engine speed! Right? Right!

    Turns out that the reason the pulley was allowed to do this was because there were only 7 of the 8 bolts holding the dampener pulley to the timing gear. Looks like someone broke off a bolt during one of the previous Timing Belt services, of which I assume there has been two done in the car's lifetime (currently has about 140,000 miles before this work started).

    As you can see, the previous Tech that did the last timing belt service wrote mileage and date on the air filter housing, how convenient! Now, if only he had done a better job on the service itself.



    Here you can see, looking through an inspection mirror, the timing gear with the one broken bolt's threads still stuck in the gear (circled in Red).



    My guess is that the crank pulley bolts were re-used after the last service. They must not have been tightened properly, either from the old dry threadlocker on the threads preventing proper torque from being achieved, or the bolts were a little stretched, or maybe the Tech just forgot to actually torque them, or maybe 7 bolts just isnt enough and it has to have 8 for it to work properly, maybe a combination of those things. In any case, after about 20,000 miles the bolts had been repeatedly hammered on by the pulley and vice versa that they ended up looking like this:





    Notice the oblong shape of the bolt-holes on the pulley, also check out the widened out "key-way". This pulley is junked.
    I decided the easiest fix for the timing pulley was to just replace it rather than trying to use an easy-out extractor on it or anything like that, just not enough room. Plus, the "key" that aligns the dampener pulley is machined into the timing gear and I didn't want to risk it with a potentially damaged timing gear key causing a similar issue in the future. Cost of OEM timing gear was only about $100 US anyway, the dampener pulley was the pricey part, I think it was something like $380 from ECSTuning. The timing gear, dampener pulley, 8 new bolts and 1 new timing gear crankshaft bolt totaled about $550 or so. My first major repair expense! yay!

    well, after letting the car sit for a few days while I waited for parts to arrive I decided to take a closer look at a few other things. Some of the things I found are related to the timing service, others arent.
    I found the water pump seems to already be leaking... only 20k since it was supposedly done (I have the repair history and bills from the prev. owner. the shop says they did it...)



    I also found this power steering cooler return hose to be quite soft and showing cracks.



    I'm gonna be cheap and do a home-brew fix for this with some hose I can get at work. as far as I can tell, its a "low" pressure line that returns to the power steering reservoir. What I have at work is some Goodyear Gorilla 3/8" hose and some worm-gear hose clamps. http://www.veyance.com/ProductsDetail.aspx?id=1072
    Should be OK, it's 500 psi rated and has high oil resistance, the only thing I'm a little worried about is the temp range it's rated for. spec page says -20 degF to 190 degF. I'm not sure if the cooler return line will see that high of temps or not. Anyway, the OEM replacement cooler to reservoir hose is only like $90. It's the other one, the rack to cooler hose that's the expensive one and is the one most difficult to access!

    Well, that's where I'm stopped at for now. I decided to completely re-do the timing belt service just for my own peace of mind, as they say, "if you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself". So I ordered Blau's Enhanced Timing kit. I also figured I'd pull the valve covers off and do the seals, gaskets and timing chain guides under there, again just for my own peace of mind, since I've seen posts all over the internet of crumbled chain guides and even worse, ruined chain tensioners due to totally worn off guides! The valve cover gasket kit with tensioner guides from Blau is actually surprisingly inexpensive for what you get, so that's on order too.

    Stay tuned for more next week as I punish myself with more expensive and tedious repairs!
    Last edited by AvantHater; 04-11-2016 at 09:20 AM. Reason: spelling check and grammar

  2. #2
    Veteran Member Three Rings
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    One probably broke off and the other 7 were on there way. Either way, they probably weren't torqued at all. I have seen recommendations to use thread-locker on the crankshaft pulley bolts due to vibration. But I suspect these were not torque properly.

    They key way looks damaged on the crank pulley. How does the key in the crank timing pulley look?

    When you get the water pump off, look behind/under the water pump pulley. I would bet the water pump gasket is leaking and not the pump seal, but I am curious.

  3. #3
    Veteran Member Three Rings
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    Also, the bolt holes on the crank pulley are elongated. I would replace. Used part off ebay is probably a decent option.

  4. #4
    Veteran Member Three Rings carmudgeon's Avatar
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    You post that picture of the bolts on Just Rolled Into The Shop on Reddit. Good example of just because the mechanic gets paid to do it for a living doesn't make him a professional.
    Previous vehicles: 2012 TTS Roadster - 2017 Golf R - 2002 S6 Avant - 2013 S4 - 2008 Subaru STi - 2007 Mazdaspeed3

  5. #5
    Active Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennda5id View Post
    One probably broke off and the other 7 were on there way. Either way, they probably weren't torqued at all. I have seen recommendations to use thread-locker on the crankshaft pulley bolts due to vibration. But I suspect these were not torque properly.

    They key way looks damaged on the crank pulley. How does the key in the crank timing pulley look?

    When you get the water pump off, look behind/under the water pump pulley. I would bet the water pump gasket is leaking and not the pump seal, but I am curious.
    yeah, using thread-locker on bolts has it's own sort-of rules, from what I've experienced and read about from others. bolts should be, I think, torqued before the Loctite has cured, that way there is no additional resistance when turning the bolt which could give a false torque reading before proper clamping load is achieved. This also applies to re-used bolts with old thread-locker on them. As much of the old Loctite should be removed as possible before reusing and new Loctite should be applied.

    the crank dampener pulley's key-way is definitely worn out. the timing pulley looks "okay", I think it may be made of a harder alloy, but I will still be replacing it to be safe, plus there's a bolt broken off in it and I just don't want to bother trying to get it out.

    You may be right about the water pump's situation, but I'm going to replace it anyway! It'll make me feel better about the quality of parts and the labor put in, rather than trusting the unknown parts and apparently shoddy labor that it previously got.


    Quote Originally Posted by glennda5id View Post
    Also, the bolt holes on the crank pulley are elongated. I would replace. Used part off ebay is probably a decent option.
    Yep, the crank pulley is going in my metal-scrap pile. I already got the pulleys, figured I'd just splurge and get new OEM parts to be on the safer side. you have to wonder about old used dampeners, how much longer will they go before they come apart. Actually I'm not sure if ours are two piece with bonded rubber damperner inside, I think I'll cut the old one in half to find out! I did find some on ebay for around 1/3 to half of the cost of a new one though, so if one was trying to not spend a lot that is still an option.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Three Rings bpark1210's Avatar
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    Those crank pulley bolts should be replaced every time, I got new bolts w/ my TB kit. In fact all the timing assembly bolts should be replaced when doing the TB job just for piece of mind. Your bolts look a little rusty which may mean there has been a coolant leak before which got on all those bolts weakening them. I'd suggest to buy a thread chaser set to clean out the threads in the block itself before re-assembly.

    Agree w/ you on checking on all the other maintenance crap up top while you have it in service position and timing locked in.

    Let us know if you have any road blocks.

  7. #7
    Veteran Member Four Rings rollerton's Avatar
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    Something you just might consider; I didn't catch how many miles on your engine, but I would absolutely consider grabbing the drivers side cam chain tensioner off Ebay and swapping it out while you've got the belt off. We've always been pretty leery of the chinese parts, but I bought a pair of those tensioners and the quality as far as I can tell is just fine. I installed one in an S6 recently and it's just great so far- (long term results still pending).
    LEFT CHAIN TENSIONER

    Passenger side is not too difficult with everything in place so nothing to worry about if you need to do it later, but knowing how these things tend to have trouble you increase your odds of having that tensioner start making noise if you don't do it while you have the chance. At least that's how my luck works. So, for $90 and maybe a few more minutes of work you cross a potential problem off your list.
    foley803 : What does an electrical surge sound like? Barking dogs? Watermelons?

  8. #8
    Active Member Two Rings
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    I actually ordered a valve cover seal kit from Blau too, comes with the tensioner chain guides and is a reasonable price too. I am hoping to get in there and not find any broken and crumbling guides, i guess that is a common issue on high mileage 4.2's. currently mine sits at about 140,000 miles.
    from a few threads on different forums and a youtube video or two, its the guides that wear out and then the chain starts to ride on the bare metal of the tensioner itself, so i'm not sure of the longevity of the actual tensioner, but the guides are certainly something to worry about.

  9. #9
    Veteran Member Four Rings rollerton's Avatar
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    The one I did came out 100% intact, but the tensioner itself must have been bad because it was noisy as hell on every start. I had both VC's off and used a thin/ long screwdriver to probe down to the bottom side of the tensioner. Poking around I could tell that the passenger side had slack in the chain after sitting for about a half hour, while the drivers side didn't.
    When I got the tensioner out of the right bank it seemed just fine, guides intact also.. so I swapped it.
    foley803 : What does an electrical surge sound like? Barking dogs? Watermelons?

  10. #10
    Active Member Two Rings
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    found this video that shows a guy fixing a chain tensioner issue, looks like it was a failure in the hydraulic circuit. looks like it got gummed up with something. pretty interesting method of doing VVT, i've not seen this method before.

    I didn't see it from any official source, but apparently the solenoid only adjust the tensioner to accuate VVT between 1400-4200rpm (at least on the 2.8L V6) and even then only at WOT. I would venture a guess that with a combination of the manufacturer spec'd 10k mile oil change interval or whatever too-high number it is, and a driver that is light on the throttle (i.e. never meets conditions to actuate VVT) then that actuator might not see enough oil flow and get sludged up. That's my theory at least.

    I'd heard of similar issues with early Honda K20 engines, all an owner needed to do was do a WOT pull up to redline (to activate VTEC) every now and then and the oil passages would keep from getting gummed up.


  11. #11
    Active Member Two Rings
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    2nd weekend of work

    Didn't get a whole lot done last weekend, but I did get a chance to get the valve covers off and check on the chain guides. as you can see in the pictures, they actually look really good, i was pretty surprised! At this point I'm not gonna touch them since they look good, all I'll do is replace the VC gaskets and spark plug tube seals.
    I decided, since the valve covers were off, that I'd paint them. but first they needed to be cleaned up. took them in to work and used our glass bead blaster on them, you can see a before and after shot below. What a world of difference! Unfortunately the aluminum is pretty pitted in some spots, I'm hoping some heavy coats of high-heat paint will smooth it out a bit and keep it from getting worse.

    I also found the front engine mount rubber part had become almost completely separated from the base of it, ordered a replacement (no pics).








  12. #12
    Senior Member Three Rings bpark1210's Avatar
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    Wow great work on bead blasting those VC's. I spent 1/2 a day w/ a wire brush and simple green solvent trying to get all the oil build up off of mine and they are no where near as clean as yours. They get quite pitted beacuase they're made of soft Magnesium. I think that front torque mount is notorious for coming apart, mine did as well.

  13. #13
    Veteran Member Three Rings carmudgeon's Avatar
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    I kind of like the satin finish, just hit it with some high temp clear coat.
    Previous vehicles: 2012 TTS Roadster - 2017 Golf R - 2002 S6 Avant - 2013 S4 - 2008 Subaru STi - 2007 Mazdaspeed3

  14. #14
    Veteran Member Three Rings
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    The guides are a nylon type of plastic. They will look fine until they break. They grow brittle due to heat cycling. Good preventative maintenance in my opinion to replace after 100k.

  15. #15
    Active Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennda5id View Post
    The guides are a nylon type of plastic. They will look fine until they break. They grow brittle due to heat cycling. Good preventative maintenance in my opinion to replace after 100k.
    hmm, that's sound logic, I think I'm starting to get lazy and anxious about this repair. It's been sitting in the garage for over 2 weeks, I just want to drive it again and start my other project! lol. I probably should just replace them while I've got the VC's off

  16. #16
    Active Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpark1210 View Post
    Wow great work on bead blasting those VC's. I spent 1/2 a day w/ a wire brush and simple green solvent trying to get all the oil build up off of mine and they are no where near as clean as yours. They get quite pitted beacuase they're made of soft Magnesium. I think that front torque mount is notorious for coming apart, mine did as well.
    the bead blasting was the easy (and more fun) part, the not-so-fun part was getting them clean of all the oil and built up crud on the insides of them before I could run them in the blasting cabinet. spent a good hour at least at the solvent washing basin with a small brass wire brush. I avoided blasting the under-sides of them though, didn't want to chance getting any amount of the blasting media inside the engine when it gets all put back together!
    Is there any aftermarket upgrade for the front mount? I've seen urethane snub mounts but I don't think those apply to the 4.2, but I'm unsure.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Three Rings bpark1210's Avatar
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    I replaced mine w/ an OEM as I couldn't find anything else. I remember someone mentioned to me that they picked up a 034 mount but it was too short or something and they ended up returning it. So no I do not believe there is any other option for us. Sucks as the OEM rubber will eventually tear again.

  18. #18
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    The car is nearly done, didn't have a lot of time last month do do much work on it, but here's what's been done.

    Here's one of the old chain guides (a lower), the lowers were in a lot worse shape than the uppers grooved and pitted.



    ################################

    I found it nearly impossible to get the tensioners out without pretty much completely removing the camshafts, but doing so meant fairly easy access to the cam seals, so got all those replaced along with the half-moons, the plug-seals, and tensioner gasket.

    Since the engine hasn't run in a while and wouldn't for a while more after getting the cams and tensioners back in, i decided that it would make me sleep better at night to put STP Oil Treatment on all the cam lobes and rollers, and also Lubriplate assembly lube on all the cam bearing surfaces. lurking any engine building forum will tell you that those 2 products are some of the most highly regarded assembly lubricants available, they are used by OEMs, after all.

    the STP is a very thick, oil additive, consistency of honey and will not run off the parts after sitting for long periods. it has a high concentration of zinc and phosphate to prevent wear. engine oils back in the day used to have zinc and phosphate additives too, but that stuff is no good for catalytic converters, it is excellent for wear prevention though. Diesel engine oil has higher concentrations of similar wear additives than gasoline engine oil does, but again, no good for cars with gasoline engine (and with catalytic converters).

    If a person were so inclined and they did not have cat-converters, they could, and imo, should use diesel engine oil in their gas engine, I do! Rotella T6 is a good choice, it's a 5w40 synthetic diesel oil and can be found at Walmart for fairly cheap. and It'll probably protect your engine better than most other gas engine oils will.

    The Lubriplate. Can't really find it in any physical autopart stores, but it's very inexpensive, like $10 for a 10oz tube (Amazon), and it'll last forever, a little goes a long way.



    This is all i felt was needed on each bearing cap, about pea-sized, then just smeared it on to a thin coating.





    ################################

    This was from when I was trying to drain all the old coolant from the engine block. I drained from the radiator petcock, but I wanted it all! there is a tube with a 10mm headed bolt as a plug that is banjo-bolted to the left side of the block, just ahead of the engine mount iirc. this is where you are supposed to drain the coolant from the block from. problem is, all the sediment in the system likes to collect in this tube and made it impossible to drain coolant from it. I took out the banjo bolt, all the coolant spilled out of course, and I used compressed air to blow out all the sediment from the tube. this stuff looked gross!





    ################################

    Heres my DIY power steering hose return line replacement. note the two hose clamps, those hold in place the two restrictors that were in the OE line, they were held in with clamps before as well, and I made sure they were placed in about the same place in the line as they were in the OE line. I used some heat protective wrap on the hose since it passes so close the the exhaust manifold.





    ################################

    Here's the valve covers back on and painted, got a new coolant reservoir too, the old one had the smaller nipple break off inside the hose.
    Didnt get pics of it but the whole timing belt, water pump, thermostat, crank timing gear, crank accessory pulley, etc. are all back on already at this point. tightening the crank timing gear was fun, 148 lb-ft +180degrees (tight as fawk).



    ################################

    Got this vacuum coolant filling tool. I gotta say, it worked well and was pretty easy to use. lets you know if there's a leak in the system too. it is supposed to, at least in theory suck out all the air and when you let the coolant in it fills all the space so there will be no air pockets in the system. we'll see if it works.



    ################################

    I decided I didn't like where the switch for my exhaust cutouts was at. i just left it hanging, I felt that the switch they came with was too big to permanently mount anywhere, I wanted something that looked more like it was supposed to be there. I got a much smaller rocker switch, extended the wiring and mounted it on the blank just behind the Nav controls (that don't work). looks much nicer!







    ################################

    As of today, the car is back on the ground, I wanted to replace the front and rear differential's fluids, but the rear fill plug was rusted, need to order a new plug before doing that. and as for the front, my transfer pump is junk, i left it sitting in a pan full of old brake fluid and brake clean, so I didn't want to use it for gear oil. that job will have to wait until later. It is almost ready to drive, I just need to charge up the battery! Almost there!

  19. #19
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Avanthater, your posts are brilliant, so clear and informative.

    I don't know how you do it. When I am working on my car I can't be bothered stopping work to take photographs particularly as I don't want to handle my camera with dirty hands. If I had someone else to take the photographs I may do it.

    Certainly when the job is finished you with have great comfort of mind knowing that everything has been done to the very highest standard.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Three Rings bpark1210's Avatar
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    I haven't been here in a while but great work! Glad to see another S6 getting proper maintenance treatment. MOAR info on the exhaust cutout wiring please!! . . . . .

  21. #21
    Active Member Two Rings
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    the wiring is pretty simple, the QTP cutouts came with all the necessary wires, fuse, and switch. I just extended them to reach further back into the cabin to have the switch where I wanted it.

    -Power and ground from the distribution block behind dash on (left) driver's side, just above the pedals, go to middle posts on switch.
    -each cutout (2) has 2 wires. I routed them forward from the cutouts, up into the engine bay, into the ECM box and through the firewall pass-through that the ECM wires go through.
    -each motor's pair of wires split each + gets spliced together, each - gets spliced together. positive pair goes to one side post of switch, negative pair goes to the other.
    -the other throw of the switch, gets a wire on each post, they criss-cross over and hook up neg. to pos. and vice versa, this is what actuates the reverse movement of the cutout motor, just reverses the polarity







  22. #22
    Senior Member Three Rings bpark1210's Avatar
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    That looks sweet! How does the exhaust sound once you dump out to the cutouts?

    What's the muffler setup you're running after the cutouts?

  23. #23
    Active Member Two Rings
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    LOUD AS FAWK! lol it vibrates the interior so much that sometimes the dome light above the front seats short circuits and turns on! i'll fix it eventually, think it's just a bad switch or something, turn the dome light's 3 position switch to full off will actually turn it off. the vibrations only cause it to short ON when the switch position is 'middle' turns on when doors open.

    stock system after the cutouts. I do want to get a pair of Magnaflow mufflers though, and delete that primary muffler/resonator thing too.

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