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Thread: Quattro Ultra

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    Quattro Ultra

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    Has anyone seen that Audi is phasing in a new awd system into its lineup? It's called Quattro Ultra. It's first appearing in the 2017 Allroad, or I should say ruining the 2017 Allroad. The new system gets rid of the simple reliable permanent awd system that all but the entry levelA3/Q3 and TT have, and replaces it with a system that disconnects power to the rear axel when the computer thinks its not needed, to save fuel. (If you can afford an Audi, your not really worried about fuel economy anyway). Like the Jeep Cherokee it disconnects the driveshaft at the transmission and rear diff. So much for simple and reliable. with all the electronics, sensors, clutches, etc. that have to be added to make this work, the possibility for expensive failures, really increases over the existing system. Audi says the system is predictive, proactive, and reactive, but how well it works in the real world vs, the lab, or the test road, I guess we will find out. Many of us bought an Audi, because it was about the only option for permanent awd. Now it will be just like almost everyone else and run in front drive. So much for the 40/60 torque split giving my Audi that preferred rear drive feel. Now the car will feel like a front driver. Even when the clutches engage fully, the best the car will do is a 50/50 power split. And that won't be very often, without a center diff. Leaving the clutches locked, will cause tire and drive line wear, since the front and rear axel wouldn't be able to rotate independently. It's hard to call a car a performance car when it runs in front drive. Granted, BMW, and certain Cadillac's, and certain Dodges, disconnect an axel in their awd cars, but at least in performance car fashion, for better feel and handling, its the front axel they disconnect. Sorry I know this is long, but I wonder if Audi even realizes that the quattro is the brands sacred cow, and messing with it like this could backfire for them in a big way.

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    Veteran Member Four Rings superswiss's Avatar
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    I've actually been watching some German reviews of the system to educate myself before throwing up my arms. The system is not as bad as everybody makes it out to be. From what they are saying it's mostly targeted at those customers who traditionally opted for the FWD models due to lower fuel consumption. I don't know if that means that moving forward Audi is offering three drivetrains on A models, FWD, Quattro Ultra and the permanent Quattro. What's for sure is that this system won't find it's way in the performance models, S and higher. They will stick to the performance oriented rear-biased systems. As I said most videos are in German, but very informative and show the system in action in the real world. The video below has English subtitles, but not sure how detailed the translation is as I didn't read the subtitles. Turn on closed captioning to get the English subtitles if you don't understand German.

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    Veteran Member Four Rings hyperunion's Avatar
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    I agree with you., with what I've read this new system is very torque limited, so will not be used even on higher horsepower v6 diesel engines... Probably really says something about the long term reliability of this system... Let's hope it does not appear at all on new allroads stateside...
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    Veteran Member Four Rings superswiss's Avatar
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    Yes, the only engine that I've heard mentioned in conjunction with Quattro Ultra is the 2.0T. Audi already has the Ultra series, which are highly fuel efficient versions of their regular cars. It's been said that this system will basically go into Ultra series models only. The name isn't a coincidence. None of the Ultra series models are currently sold in North America.
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    Also read somewhere that if you put the transmission into Sport mode, it will leave things in AWD mode rather than decoupling the rear.

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    Everyone is jumping to conclusions. This will not be on an S/RS car. This will be a better system than the Haldex system. Most of those complaining about this probably couldn't tell the difference when driving them back to back. Hell I don't know if I would be able to tell the difference.

    For example, the AWD system on the Focus RS, as long as the steering wheel is straight, its FWD. When the wheel turns its AWD. Not sure if everyone is reading the reviews, not that I am in the market for a Focus, but they are saying its the best handling car in certain situations they have ever driven. So a "faux" AWD system is getting some of the best reviews in handling a car has ever gotten.
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    The new system is in the 2017 Allroad. When you spend $50,000 on a car, you want what you want, and I don't want a front wheel drive based automatic part time AWD. There will be no other way to get the Allroad. When my Allroad needs replacing, I'll be switching over to a BMW 3 series wagon if I can't get the crown gear torsen. At least BMW, Jag, Dodge Charger, Cadillac ATS, and CTS, vary/decouple power to the front axel leaving the RWD handling intact. Audi didn't implement the direct injection very well back in 2006, hence the cam follower failures. When mine went it was catastrophic. Everything from the head on up had to be replaced. The new awd system is also new technology, and after the cam follower experience I'm very concerned. Audi should have spent the development money on making their diesels legal instead.

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    Veteran Member Four Rings hyperunion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B7Night View Post
    The new system is in the 2017 Allroad. When you spend $50,000 on a car, you want what you want, and I don't want a front wheel drive based automatic part time AWD. There will be no other way to get the Allroad. When my Allroad needs replacing, I'll be switching over to a BMW 3 series wagon if I can't get the crown gear torsen. At least BMW, Jag, Dodge Charger, Cadillac ATS, and CTS, vary/decouple power to the front axel leaving the RWD handling intact. Audi didn't implement the direct injection very well back in 2006, hence the cam follower failures. When mine went it was catastrophic. Everything from the head on up had to be replaced. The new awd system is also new technology, and after the cam follower experience I'm very concerned. Audi should have spent the development money on making their diesels legal instead.
    Again... This system will most likely not make it to our US bound allroads.... They will be mechanical twins to the current b9 a4 platform.. MLB evo...
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyperunion View Post
    Again... This system will most likely not make it to our US bound allroads.... They will be mechanical twins to the current b9 a4 platform.. MLB evo...
    Quattro Ultra was announced for the Allroad on the Audi Canada site. Are you asserting that the US and Canadian Allroads with have different AWD systems?

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    Veteran Member Four Rings superswiss's Avatar
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    ^ Quattro Ultra is most certainly coming to the US market. The Allroad is the launch model for Quattra Ultra and the US bound Allroad will have Quattro Ultra. The 6MT A4 Quattro that we are supposed to get will also with a high degree of certainty be Quattro Ultra and not regular Quattro. The Ultra models are definilty coming to North America. I believe they are also adding the FWD Ultra with the smaller 2.0T engine to the US line up. Don't remember where I read that, though.
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    Senior Member Two Rings dbuxton13's Avatar
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    Without links to credible sources, this all smacks of dodgy speculation.
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    http://autoweek.com/article/car-revi...ro-first-drive

    This review in Autoweek clearly indicates that the Allroad will arrive in the US with only Quattro Ultra available. I am not making judgements regarding the performance of Quattro Ultra, but it is clear that it will replace traditional center differential-based quattro in some applications.

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    Veteran Member Four Rings hyperunion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD23 View Post
    http://autoweek.com/article/car-revi...ro-first-drive

    This review in Autoweek clearly indicates that the Allroad will arrive in the US with only Quattro Ultra available. I am not making judgements regarding the performance of Quattro Ultra, but it is clear that it will replace traditional center differential-based quattro in some applications.
    It doesn't specifically say the ultra is coming in the states... This was a European car that the article was written about, most likely tested by a writer in Europe.... Don't see this system making here in the states.... For good measure too...
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    Senior Member Two Rings dbuxton13's Avatar
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    The reason I am skeptical of Ultra in the US is I went to the Frankfurt auto show in Germany where Audi unveiled the new A4 and all its upcoming product lines and tech. There was an "Ultra A4" model on display and when I asked a rep about it he talked about the ultra Quattro system (which of course he made out to be all rainbows and sunshine at the time), but the key take-away I got from him is that this is a specific variant of A4 that has ultra technology. And it would only be available in Europe (for now) where demand is highest for fuel sipping cars. The US still has relatively cheap gas. I paid 1.44 euro per liter of gas yesterday in Germany. That works out to be nearly $6.50/gallon. If you aren't buying the A4 Ultra, then you aren't getting that version of Quattro. I don't know about Allroads (not interested in them anyway), but I would also be surprised if the standard Allroad used ultra tech, especially in the US.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyperunion View Post
    It doesn't specifically say the ultra is coming in the states... This was a European car that the article was written about, most likely tested by a writer in Europe.... Don't see this system making here in the states.... For good measure too...
    This is the first sentence from the review: "The second-generation Audi A4 allroad quattro arrives in the U.S. later this year with a 2.0-liter turbo gasoline engine and a new twist on all-wheel drive called 'quattro with ultra.'"

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    Official announcement of the USA spec 2017 A4 Allroad with Quattro Ultra for the non-believers.

    https://www.audiusa.com/newsroom/new...is-fall-to-u-s
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    Senior Member Two Rings dbuxton13's Avatar
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    Ewwwww. Well I guess the allroad is kind of a quirky non-performance car. Just so long as it doesn't become standard on the A4/S4.
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    Yes the New Ultra Quattro as been announced for a while now (many, many months perhaps even the beginning of 2016 IIRC) and the launch car for it was announced as the new B9 Allroad.

    As for the regular B9 A4, I don't know how long before they drop the TorSen for the new Quattro Ultra.

    It was also said in articles dating back at least 6 months that the new Quattro could not handle high horse power/torque so the S and RS cars would retain the more conventional Quattro system.

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    Senior Member Three Rings JD23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superswiss View Post
    Official announcement of the USA spec 2017 A4 Allroad with Quattro Ultra for the non-believers.

    https://www.audiusa.com/newsroom/new...is-fall-to-u-s
    Exactly as I insisted last week. Not sure why so many people were in denial. It's definitely possible that the A4 could switch over at some point to eke out another mpg or two for CAFE.

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    Just spoke with a person at AoA this past weekend about the new allroad ---- as we were looking at it. The system is NOT a FWD biased system that kicks in when needed (like all those japanese/us cars do). This QU system is infinitely adjustable as people tried to pin out a "power bias" like the current quattro system. It sounds rather impressive.

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    Veteran Member Four Rings superswiss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD23 View Post
    Exactly as I insisted last week. Not sure why so many people were in denial. It's definitely possible that the A4 could switch over at some point to eke out another mpg or two for CAFE.
    Yeah, not sure what was so hard to believe. This one was pretty much a 100% predictable. It would have made no business sense for Audi to engineer a different drivetrain into the US spec Allroad for such a tiny wagon market. Now that they have federalized Quattro Ultra for millions of dollars, it's pretty much a given that it will come to the higher volume sellers such as the A4 in order to amortize the cost. As I said before, the upcoming 6MT A4 quattro will mostly like use Quattro Ultra and I predict that the A4 automatic will switch with the facelift or perhaps even earlier. S and RS will continue to use the rear-biased quattro with self-locking center differential for it's more sporty nature and the fact that Quattro Ultra cannot handle the higher power and torque yet.
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    Veteran Member Four Rings treginginco's Avatar
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    This drivetrain is not just for the US

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    The thing is, that 10 years down the road most new cars will be electric or at least hybrid. We're already seeing European countries banning "fuel" powered new cars from 2030 onwards, Germany being one of the first to do so.

    So this quattro ultra is one step Audi needs to take to be ready for the big shift.

    So let's enjoy our torsens while we have them.. there won't be a B10 with it anymore.


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    Veteran Member Four Rings superswiss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by treginginco View Post
    This drivetrain is not just for the US
    Nobody said that. However, the immense cost of federalizing a drivetrain/powertrain for the US market is unique to the US market. That cost has to be ammortized over all the cars being sold in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by jlindstrom View Post
    The thing is, that 10 years down the road most new cars will be electric or at least hybrid. We're already seeing European countries banning "fuel" powered new cars from 2030 onwards, Germany being one of the first to do so.

    So this quattro ultra is one step Audi needs to take to be ready for the big shift.

    So let's enjoy our torsens while we have them.. there won't be a B10 with it anymore.


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    Well, so far it's just plans with Norway leading the charge and not Germany, but yes, chances are that's the way it's gonna go. Such a decision will be very contentious in Germany, though. As for the Torsen, that's already gone. The RS5 introduced the new self-locking center differential that has replaced the Torsen for the better. It's more efficient, too. The last Audi with a Torsen was the B8.5 6MT. The S-tronic models already got the new diff.
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    Veteran Member Four Rings LINDW4LL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superswiss View Post
    Well, so far it's just plans with Norway leading the charge and not Germany, but yes, chances are that's the way it's gonna go. Such a decision will be very contentious in Germany, though. As for the Torsen, that's already gone. The RS5 introduced the new self-locking center differential that has replaced the Torsen for the better. It's more efficient, too. The last Audi with a Torsen was the B8.5 6MT. The S-tronic models already got the new diff.
    I read that Audi ditched the Crown diff for the B9 A4 and went back to the Torsen T3. It doesn't really make much sense to me unless it's a cost issue.

    Oddly I only saw it in the single aforementioned article though... I'll look now.
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    Veteran Member Four Rings LINDW4LL's Avatar
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    Here is the excerpt.

    There is another major change for the B9 A4: it looks like Audi has given up its crown-gear center differential, therefore on the 2016 A4 with Quattro AWD system, it is using the Torsen C differential (please note: Audi has a long tradition of using the Torsen differentials in its vehicles previously; the crown-gear type is the firm’s attempt to design/build a different central differential than buying it from JTEKT Torsen, a company now owned by Toyota) .
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    Veteran Member Four Rings superswiss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LINDW4LL View Post
    I read that Audi ditched the Crown diff for the B9 A4 and went back to the Torsen T3. It doesn't really make much sense to me unless it's a cost issue.

    Oddly I only saw it in the single aforementioned article though... I'll look now.
    Would be interested in seeing that article. The audi.de site says self-locking center differential and so does all the press material I've read so far. Somebody might have confused it. There are two variants of the self-locking center differential. The crown-gear and the planetary-gear variants. The former is used in cars with the S-tronic and the later in cars with the Tiptronic, A4 is available with both transmissions in Europe.

    EDIT: BTW, here's more info on the planetary-gear variant. The easy way to tell if a car has the self-lock diff is from the max torque split in the tech specs. If it's 70f/85r, then it's the self-locking diff. The torsen is 80/80. That rear-biased nature of the self-locking diff is what makes for a lot of the difference in driving dynamics. I actually get the impression that they ditched the crown-gear variant in favor of the planetary-gear variant. Audi.de only mentions the planetary-gear variant for the new A4. Haven't heard much about the crown-gear since the RS5 was introduced.

    http://www.audi-technology-portal.de...r-differential
    Last edited by superswiss; 07-26-2016 at 01:36 AM.
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