clutch woes ... clutch master cylinder ?

[nonstopgo68]

did timing chain guides on s4 quattro 4.2 - also replaced clutch -pres plate - throwout bearing and flywheel
after putting motor back in - would not go in gear - thought possibly slave cylinder changed out and did everything right as far as no air in line. trust me
still cannot get in gear
is it possible that with old worn clutch the clutch mast cyl would let it shift ok but now with new clutch its not disengaging completely?
the first 40% of travel feels like air to me
need help
never had this much trouble before

[xhackerekx]

check parts # pressure plate and flywheel, when I change my timing ordered whole clutch kit receive wrong pressure plate .

[nonstopgo68]

we did pull trans out to check and they looked identical. the new press plate sat up taller when placed on the ground next to one another.
part numbers were right

[bmwpower603]

did timing chain guides on s4 quattro 4.2 - also replaced clutch -pres plate - throwout bearing and flywheel
after putting motor back in - would not go in gear - thought possibly slave cylinder changed out and did everything right as far as no air in line. trust me
still cannot get in gear
is it possible that with old worn clutch the clutch mast cyl would let it shift ok but now with new clutch its not disengaging completely?
the first 40% of travel feels like air to me
need help
never had this much trouble before

Had same problem. Bleed the slave cylinder manually.

[evildsmr]

When you bled the line did you have the car level or was the front higher than the back?

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[icanfly]

3 things.
1. Make sure your kit is the correct kit and that you've got it installed, and torqued correctly. (where did you get your clutch kit from?)
2. Ensure that your slave cylinder is seating into the throwout fork correctly. This is critical to ensuring proper functionality.
3. Manually bleed slave cylinder - twice - with car level. Do it once in the morning, and then again in the afternoon to let all the air in the system settle around.

[nonstopgo68]

3 things.
1. Make sure your kit is the correct kit and that you've got it installed, and torqued correctly. (where did you get your clutch kit from?)
2. Ensure that your slave cylinder is seating into the throwout fork correctly. This is critical to ensuring proper functionality.
3. Manually bleed slave cylinder - twice - with car level. Do it once in the morning, and then again in the afternoon to let all the air in the system settle around.

079 105 266B Dual Mass Flywheel- S4 4.2L
079198141X LuK OEM Clutch Kit - Audi S4 & RS4

all from usp motorsports all torqued accord to alldata specs



slave is definitely is seated into fork, 100% sure

and i have bled and bled and bled with car level.... manually, vacuum and with power bleeder
i have waited for any air to dissipate in between.

i dont get it.
no air is coming out when i crack the bleeder

[nonstopgo68]

please explain manually tho ?

with car level almost a little higher in rear, let it gravity bleed. the pump it by hand slowly and cracked bleeder, shut bleeder several times to start with. then tried the other vac, pow bleed ect.

[xhackerekx]

u have b7 or b6 s4 ?

[bmwpower603]

please explain manually tho ?

with car level almost a little higher in rear, let it gravity bleed. the pump it by hand slowly and cracked bleeder, shut bleeder several times to start with. then tried the other vac, pow bleed ect.

Unscrew the slave cylinder line. Have someone in the car pump the clutch in, and make sure it comes back up. (If it does not, pull the clutch up manually)

That should bleed it enough. Repeat once again if needed.

[nonstopgo68]

i believe its b6 it is early 2004
how would i know?

[nonstopgo68]

Unscrew the slave cylinder line. Have someone in the car pump the clutch in, and make sure it comes back up. (If it does not, pull the clutch up manually)

That should bleed it enough. Repeat once again if needed.

i agree but it does not.

[brndll]

I had to do the master cylinder along with a clutch/flywheel job. It is not unheard of. It is in a sucky postion (to get to and replace) but it solved my bleed issues. Very similar to what you are explaining. Don't take my comment as anything more than a datapoint. All of the advice here is good, it is almost always the slave cyl and the bleed process. Car level, do it twice, all good advice.

[xhackerekx]

i believe its b6 it is early 2004
how would i know?

b6 and b7 have different setup u can't use b6 flywheel with b7 s4 rs4 clutch update flywheel for this setup from b7 s4 or u story never end.

parts # what u provide show b6 flywheel and pressure plate from b7

[nonstopgo68]

b6 and b7 have different setup u can't use b6 flywheel with b7 s4 rs4 clutch update flywheel for this setup from b7 s4 or u story never end.

parts # what u provide show b6 flywheel and pressure plate from b7

Really?! im checking that thx

[nonstopgo68]

accord to rep at usp b6 and b7 are interchangable. i mean we sat old and new next to each other and they identical


http://www.uspmotorsports.com/Audi--...-B6-B7-V8.html

[emcaha]

Have you replaced your slave cylinder? I'd venture to say that is possibly your issue over the master cylinder. These slaves are known to go bad (1st hand experience here) while the master cylinders are typically pretty stout. Early b6's did have a different slave cylinder than later models. If you have replaced it or decide to, be sure to order the correct one. I replaced master cylinder at the same time and can tell you its a quality PITA job and was not needed in my case.

I did clutch/flywheel/pp too (JHM 1R combo) and had some issues bleeding and funky pedal pressure/travel. After ensuring everything was correct I took it for a drive and after a few shifts everything was perfect. Felt funky because the engagement point changed leaving some extra "dead" space at the top of travel and might just needed to get that last bit of added pressure from the full system being up and running. I also lengthened my slave cylinder arm a bit to engage higher in the pedal range as it was originally RIGHT off the floor.

From comments above; the b6/7 setup are interchangeable but I do not think you can mix and match between the two. They both will fit but have to be installed as a "unit" if that makes sense.

.02; hope it gets resolved. Was a frustrating learning process for me but in retrospect isn't too bad of a job once you get it.

[nonstopgo68]

Have you replaced your slave cylinder? I'd venture to say that is possibly your issue over the master cylinder. These slaves are known to go bad (1st hand experience here) while the master cylinders are typically pretty stout. Early b6's did have a different slave cylinder than later models. If you have replaced it or decide to, be sure to order the correct one. I replaced master cylinder at the same time and can tell you its a quality PITA job and was not needed in my case.

I did clutch/flywheel/pp too (JHM 1R combo) and had some issues bleeding and funky pedal pressure/travel. After ensuring everything was correct I took it for a drive and after a few shifts everything was perfect. Felt funky because the engagement point changed leaving some extra "dead" space at the top of travel and might just needed to get that last bit of added pressure from the full system being up and running. I also lengthened my slave cylinder arm a bit to engage a bit higher in the pedal.

From comments above; the b6/7 setup are interchangeable but I do not think you can mix and match between the two. They both will fit but have to be installed as a "unit" if that makes sense.

.02; hope it gets resolved. Was a frustrating learning process for me but in retrospect isn't too bad of a job once you get it.

yes thx for the help tho

[emcaha]

yes

Yes to replacing slave? Very obvious statement but be damn sure it's located in the fork.

Only other thought would be to double check fittings and connections to make sure nothing is drawing air into your system. Obvious again, but worth being sure.

[nonstopgo68]

Yes to replacing slave? Very obvious statement but be damn sure it's located in the fork.

Only other thought would be to double check fittings and connections to make sure nothing is drawing air into your system. Obvious again, but worth being sure.

i am nearly 100% sure its in the fork.
with the clutch pressed to floor it will crank and move as if in gear let the clutch out and it will stall with brake applied

[emcaha]

with the clutch pressed to floor it will crank and move as if in gear let the clutch out and it will stall with brake applied

Clutch pressed to floor, tranny in gear, then you try to crank it over and it will move? If you start it up in neutral and then try to put it in gear what happens? Guessing it won't go into any gears. When it's off you should have no problem going through all the gears.

That was 100% my symptoms when my slave cylinder went. If that truly is it I'd say the slave isn't engaged with the fork or there is some serious air in the system. With transmission installed, the slave cylinder will be tough to get into the fork as you will have to compress it a lot to fit into place. I'd honestly suggest hooking it up when installing so you can feel some resistance as it compresses. (Good tip I picked up on here somewhere and was very handy when troubleshooting myself.)

Other idea would be to remove mounting hardware from slave and SLOWLY remove it to see if it'll "spring" back as the cylinder expands. These are under compression in the rest state so if you keep the system closed off the slave will be the only thing that'll want to give.

[nonstopgo68]

Clutch pressed to floor, tranny in gear, then you try to crank it over and it will move? If you start it up in neutral and then try to put it in gear what happens? Guessing it won't go into any gears. When it's off you should have no problem going through all the gears.

That was 100% my symptoms when my slave cylinder went. If that truly is it I'd say the slave isn't engaged with the fork or there is some serious air in the system. With transmission installed, the slave cylinder will be tough to get into the fork as you will have to compress it a lot to fit into place. I'd honestly suggest hooking it up when installing so you can feel some resistance as it compresses. (Good tip I picked up on here somewhere and was very handy when troubleshooting myself.)

Other idea would be to remove mounting hardware from slave and SLOWLY remove it to see if it'll "spring" back as the cylinder expands. These are under compression in the rest state so if you keep the system closed off the slave will be the only thing that'll want to give.

ok i will do it again

just for my sanity where would the pin of slave be hitting if not on the fork? I mean if im missing it completely it would pop out into bellhousing

it is a new slave btw

this is quite maddening

thinking back when my tech installed slave he was saying he had to aim it down a little to go into fork
does this sound right?

[emcaha]

If it's not hitting the fork then yes, it will just be in free state in the bell housing. This is when you run the risk of popping the cylinder of the slave from install. If it is not engaged into fork and you press clutch you CAN pop the cylinder with hydraulic pressure (1st hand here again).

This would be very noticeable as the pedal would drop to the floor and you'd have NO clutch pressure. Doesn't sound like you case but food for thought incase you have to remove the slave again.

When installing yes, you have to come down at an angle from the top of the tranny to get the slave in. I'm sure you could weasel it in from any approach but the top down is definitely the most common/recommended. Least chance of not engaging the fork.

Best of luck man, I feel for you going through similar issues my go-around.

[nonstopgo68]

If it's not hitting the fork then yes, it will just be in free state in the bell housing. This is when you run the risk of popping the cylinder of the slave from install. If it is not engaged into fork and you press clutch you CAN pop the cylinder with hydraulic pressure (1st hand here again).

This would be very noticeable as the pedal would drop to the floor and you'd have NO clutch pressure. Doesn't sound like you case but food for thought incase you have to remove the slave again.

When installing yes, you have to come down at an angle from the top of the tranny to get the slave in. I'm sure you could weasel it in from any approach but the top down is definitely the most common/recommended. Least chance of not engaging the fork.

Best of luck man, I feel for you going through similar issues my go-around.

\

Thank you for your help. I dont want to have to take slave out if its not the problem. I believe if i was missing fork i couldnt disengage clutch at all. which i CAN . About the first 40% percent feels mushy then it appears to feel pressure plate spring pressure.
i have tried manually bleeding after gravity bleeding then vacuum bleeding then i bought a power bleeder and i can see no air coming from bleed screw when opened .
i feel that the only option at this point is to throw clutch master cylinder at it.

[emcaha]

You may be closer than you think. Drivable at all? Take it for a longer drive and see if it get's any better.

It is a fairly simple system so by process of elimination go ahead a change out the master cylinder too. If you're not doing the work yourself and don't mind additional costs go for it. Definitely isn't a fun job as the cylinder is inside the footwell above the pedal assembly and connection through firewall is right behind the master cylinder. Straightforward in concept but PITA to execute.

[nonstopgo68]

You may be closer than you think. Drivable at all? Take it for a longer drive and see if it get's any better.

It is a fairly simple system so by process of elimination go ahead a change out the master cylinder too. If you're not doing the work yourself and don't mind additional costs go for it. Definitely isn't a fun job as the cylinder is inside the footwell above the pedal assembly and connection through firewall is right behind the master cylinder. Straightforward in concept but PITA to execute.

Yes it is drivable, i might try that.
I was thinking the same thing about just changing m/c . but, I will be doing this job myself im afraid.
Cust said it shifted fine before timing chain work done , so im almost to the point where i may put the old clutch back in. lol

[emcaha]

im almost to the point where i may put the old clutch back in. lol

Definitely don't do that. All you'll be doing is putting this same issue off or worst case you're back at the same scenario except now with the old/used clutch!

Take it for a spin where you know you'll have to do some shifting. Get into every gear with downshifts into as many gears as possible and see where you're at.

If you're still not happy then go ahead with the master cylinder but from the sounds of it I don't think it needs to be replaced. I'm optimistic you're actually good to go and that last bit of deadness you're feeling will go away with driving.

Sometimes it just needs to be driven.

[nonstopgo68]

Definitely don't do that. All you'll be doing is putting this same issue off or worst case you're back at the same scenario except now with the old/used clutch!

Take it for a spin where you know you'll have to do some shifting. Get into every gear with downshifts into as many gears as possible and see where you're at.

If you're still not happy then go ahead with the master cylinder but from the sounds of it I don't think it needs to be replaced. I'm optimistic you're actually good to go and that last bit of deadness you're feeling will go away with driving.

Sometimes it just needs to be driven.

well i was half joking....but half serious lol
really? man i cant take getting my hopes up again i will give it a shot but not going to hold out any hope sorry to be doubtful

[emcaha]

Hey, a little positive vibes never hurts. Maybe car will read this and get in better spirits too haha.

On a serious note though; the longer drive will also be a good test bed for seeing if anything changes over time. Engagement levels, increasing/decreasing clutch pressure, anything like that will only help you diagnose and pinpoint exactly what's going on.

Be sure to bring some extra fluid with you as well and after some shifting take a look at the res. to make sure you're above the MIN. Check for any possible leaks under the car at some point during the drive as well.

[nonstopgo68]

Hey, a little positive vibes never hurts. Maybe car will read this and get in better spirits too haha.

On a serious note though; the longer drive will also be a good test bed for seeing if anything changes over time. Engagement levels, increasing/decreasing clutch pressure, anything like that will only help you diagnose and pinpoint exactly what's going on.

Be sure to bring some extra fluid with you as well and after some shifting take a look at the res. to make sure you're above the MIN. Check for any possible leaks under the car at some point during the drive as well.

ok i drove it and the clutch slips . i cant get my head around it why would it slip?

[emcaha]

ok i drove it and the clutch slips . i cant get my head around it why would it slip?

How long you drive for? Anything else noteworthy?

If clutch is slipping then you definitely have something else going on. Rebleed again just to be 110% sure then my only other suggestion is to replace master cylinder and/or start looking at clutch install and seeing what may be an issue there. Unfortunately you're definitely going to have to do some more in-depth investigation that will likely involve disassembly. Sorry man.......

[nonstopgo68]

How long you drive for? Anything else noteworthy?

If clutch is slipping then you definitely have something else going on. Rebleed again just to be 110% sure then my only other suggestion is to replace master cylinder and/or start looking at clutch install and seeing what may be an issue there. Unfortunately you're definitely going to have to do some more in-depth investigation that will likely involve disassembly. Sorry man.......

ok yeah well it is what it is

i only drove it for a mile or 2

but i cant think of what it might be at this point. i mean we have pulled trans since we did timing chain guides and everything looked fine. clutch was identical to old
im wondering about flywheel

[xhackerekx]

accord to rep at usp b6 and b7 are interchangable. i mean we sat old and new next to each other and they identical


http://www.uspmotorsports.com/Audi--...-B6-B7-V8.html

b6 and b7 have different pressure plate and flywheel only same is clutch disc when u try install rs4 clutch on b6 flywheel this setup never work u need b7 flywheel ,ask Jake from JHM and him explain u why.