Used SQ5 Question

**Probmxstyle** · 04-01-2016 05:55 AM

Hi all, I am considering a used 2015 SQ5 with 20k miles on it. I did some research on it and saw on the Carfax that the car had been service at New German Performance. After contacting them, I was told that an APR stage 1 tune and H&R springs had been installed on the car. If I purchased this car with the tune already installed (assuming I didn't know it was there), how would that play out in regards to the warranty? Would you still consider purchasing it or would you walk away?

**drumnjuny** · 04-01-2016 06:17 AM

Post in regionals, probably find out who's car it was

member Ty Webb just traded his in somewhere

**gtg196w** · 04-01-2016 06:50 AM

There is significant risk to voiding the warranty if it hasn't been already. Whenever you bring it to the dealer, they can/typically will scan and easily see/mark you as ecu tuned. Depends on the dealership, but you will likely be flagged. And no, it doesn't matter if you switch it back to "stock mode" in the apr tune.

Some people prefer having the tune, others are 100% against buying a car that way.

Personally, I would use it as leverage to reduce the price significantly.

**Probmxstyle** · 04-01-2016 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by gtg196w

There is significant risk to voiding the warranty if it hasn't been already. Whenever you bring it to the dealer, they can/typically will scan and easily see/mark you as ecu tuned. Depends on the dealership, but you will likely be flagged. And no, it doesn't matter if you switch it back to "stock mode" in the apr tune.

Some people prefer having the tune, others are 100% against buying a car that way.

Personally, I would use it as leverage to reduce the price significantly.

The car is currently $46k and they seem to be willing to work with me to get rid of it. It looks like they have had it since December. What if I asked the dealer to order a new ECU for it?

**sszyma** · 04-01-2016 07:32 AM

I wouldn't even worry about the tune. If well maintained the engine will be unlikely to have an issue. I tuned a new SQ5 at 700 miles. I would never bring the car to the dealer for work anyway.

**riceboy22** · 04-01-2016 07:39 AM

Is it being sold by an Audi dealer? Even if it's not, you might be able to go to a dealer and ask them for the vehicle history including whether it's ever been flagged TD1 (which would indicate that the dealer has identified the ECU as tuned). I would still recommend having a dealer hook it up for a scan to ensure that the car has been truly flashed back to stock. You want the warranty intact.

**Silverarrow240** · 04-01-2016 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by riceboy22

Is it being sold by an Audi dealer? Even if it's not, you might be able to go to a dealer and ask them for the vehicle history including whether it's ever been flagged TD1 (which would indicate that the dealer has identified the ECU as tuned). I would still recommend having a dealer hook it up for a scan to ensure that the car had been truly flashed back to stock.

I know this is a VERY dead horse, but if FLASHED back to stock, can you avoid TD1?

**TJay74** · 04-01-2016 07:45 AM

The dealer can flash it back to stock, that part can be done. Now finding a dealer who will do that and not flag the vehicle in the Audi system is another part of the equation.

**riceboy22** · 04-01-2016 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by Silverarrow240

I know this is a VERY dead horse, but if FLASHED back to stock, can you avoid TD1?

Based on how they currently scan yes, but that could always change. It's a cat and mouse game. My understanding is that they currently run what amounts to a checksum.

To the OP, if you don't plan to tune, I would be very hesitant to do it unless it's certified by a dealer or you're just getting too good a deal to pass up.

**drumnjuny** · 04-01-2016 07:55 AM

APR de-flash adjusts the checksum flash counter (at least according to them) so PO probably got it removed by NGP.

**Silverarrow240** · 04-01-2016 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by riceboy22

To the OP, if you don't plan to tune, I would be very hesitant to do it unless it's certified by a dealer or you're just getting too good a deal to pass up.

^^^ perfect advice

**Probmxstyle** · 04-01-2016 08:01 AM

This is not a Audi dealer. I did senf the VIN to a local Audi dealer and they confirmed that the warranty is still intact. Also, NGP never stated that the owner brought it back to be reflashed to stock. They offered to do it for $150. The car is currently listed for $46k.

**teamBrando** · 04-01-2016 09:25 AM

If your already worried about not having the warranty I would just save yourself the trouble and find an SQ5 that hasn't been tuned.

**plat** · 04-01-2016 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Probmxstyle

This is not a Audi dealer. I did senf the VIN to a local Audi dealer and they confirmed that the warranty is still intact. Also, NGP never stated that the owner brought it back to be reflashed to stock. They offered to do it for $150. The car is currently listed for $46k.

The Audi dealer reported that the SQ5 you've been eyeing still has its warranty intact probably because it's never been back to the dealership after it got its tune. It is still a tricky situation. If this car develops a problem and you bring it to an Audi dealer and they discover it has a tune, instant TD1 and any warranty work will have a 50-50 chance of being honored.

If you really want an SQ5, try looking for one that carries a CPO status. These cars are very expensive to fix. If it was tuned, you have no way to telling how the original owner drove and took care of it unless you know the original owner. If you are willing to risk it then go for it. But, I would stay away from it, if possible.

**Q5 Bob** · 04-01-2016 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by plat

The Audi dealer reported that the SQ5 you've been eyeing still has its warranty in stock probably because it's never been back to the dealership after it got its tune. It is still a tricky situation. If this car develops a problem and you bring it to an Audi dealer and they discover it has a tune, instant TD1 and any warranty work will have a 50-50 chance of being honored.

If you really want an SQ5, try looking for one that carries a CPO status. These cars are very expensive to fix. If it was tuned, you have no way to telling how the original owner drove and took care of it unless you know the original owner. I you are willing to risk it then go for it. But, I would stay away from it if possible.

I agree with this. At around $49k you want to make sure that you know what you are getting. There are others out there that might be a better choice.

**kausbose** · 04-01-2016 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by plat

The Audi dealer reported that the SQ5 you've been eyeing still has its warranty intact probably because it's never been back to the dealership after it got its tune. It is still a tricky situation. If this car develops a problem and you bring it to an Audi dealer and they discover it has a tune, instant TD1 and any warranty work will have a 50-50 chance of being honored.

TD1 violates any warranty related to the engine and drivetrain of the vehicle. Everything else in the car is still covered.

Having said that I belong to the group of the people that enjoy the car as it came from the factory. I have an SQ5 and owned an S4 prior and never had the need for it to be tuned. It was ample fun the way it is. I do like the peace of mind of the warranty being in place. Though there are people on this group that enjoy the heck more out of the car with the tuning. Few key things to note about tuning the car is that you should know of a shop that works on that particular vehicle and you know and trust them. I didn't have a relationship similar to this with anyone and thus always have the vehicle serviced at the dealership (which till now has been only the required services at annual intervals). I think the tuning thing is a very regional thing to be honest. Guys from the northeast, NY, NJ and DC are relatively more into it that the rest of the nation. This is also due to the fact that it's easier to find a trustworthy mechanic in those areas.

Take your pick, either ways it's a great vehicle.

**Jay337** · 04-01-2016 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by riceboy22

Is it being sold by an Audi dealer? Even if it's not, you might be able to go to a dealer and ask them for the vehicle history including whether it's ever been flagged TD1 (which would indicate that the dealer has identified the ECU as tuned). I would still recommend having a dealer hook it up for a scan to ensure that the car has been truly flashed back to stock. You want the warranty intact.

It is not working like this,my service guy told me when the car is scan by the dealer.. there is not a BIG RED POPUP that says ''you got flagged td1 madafacka'', the system send the informations to the HQ in germany ( after that we dont know if its someone that analyse or the system that automatically flag the serial number of the car) but when you come back to do a warranty fix , it will be list as flagged, BUT the car can be warrany again, but it may take like a week before the warranty fix will be done, because dealer will have to call and fight with Audi/vw of america and maybe germany. They can accepte or refuse to do the job. They had a problem like this because of an owner of a 2016 S4 that was chipped by APR and he thinks that putting the car back to stock mode will hide the tune.

**SQive** · 04-01-2016 09:00 PM

As I understand it, the APR tune completely over-writes the ECU. If you have a relationship with a good Audi shop (non-dealer usually), that does your APR tune, they save the file and simply over-write the whole thing back to stock. This also over-writes the flash counter, resetting it to zero. I am APR stage 2, and I flashed immediately after my free 5K mile service. Now, I go to the same guy for service that did my tune, and if we find anything requiring dealer intervention, he'll flash it back for free. I love the SQ5. I'm on my second one. I love it even more with the tune. It's entirely your choice, but to counter some of the other posts here, I would go for it and find a shop like mine...with someone you trust. I also agree with the poster above that suggested trying to locate the original owner and find out where he had the work done. It's only stage 1, with 20K miles. I'd be like "Hey! Free tune!" but that's me.

**riceboy22** · 04-01-2016 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by Jay337

It is not working like this,my service guy told me when the car is scan by the dealer.. there is not a BIG RED POPUP that says ''you got flagged td1 madafacka'', the system send the informations to the HQ in germany ( after that we dont know if its someone that analyse or the system that automatically flag the serial number of the car) but when you come back to do a warranty fix , it will be list as flagged, BUT the car can be warrany again, but it may take like a week before the warranty fix will be done, because dealer will have to call and fight with Audi/vw of america and maybe germany. They can accepte or refuse to do the job. They had a problem like this because of an owner of a 2016 S4 that was chipped by APR and he thinks that putting the car back to stock mode will hide the tune.

I'm not sure which part you're saying is inaccurate, but this post on the GOLFMK7 forums is the most comprehensive explanation of the process I've read: Warranty 101: Warranty and You - TD1, recalls, updates, Magnuson Moss, etc...

The short version is that your service department can see if the car has been flagged TD1 when they enter your VIN into ElsaPro. You don't need to be requesting a warranty repair for them to see that information. You are correct that the initial flagging of TD1 happens when your car gets scanned for a GFF log and that information gets sent back to the mothership. I actually saw on my invoice that they pulled a GFF log today when I had the car in for service. My point to the OP though was that he could request that they scan for faults, and if anything indicating a tune was found, that would then show up in ElsaPro. I doubt the turnaround on that is very long (if it's not instantaneous). It's definitely not being analyzed by "someone" considering how many scans must be done every day by Audi/VW. The general consensus seems to be that they are running a checksum validation.

As far as warranty goes, you are not getting the warranty on your engine and powertrain back when you get flagged TD1. I don't think any amount of lobbying your dealer does is going to make Audi change their mind on that. Could your dealer find a way to somehow get your repair covered by Audi? I suppose it's possible, but I certainly wouldn't want to depend on that when it comes to warranty coverage.

**seanentrust** · 04-01-2016 10:54 PM

One of my best friends, he does all my work, runs an APR dealer and he says even when flashed back to stock there is no way for them to reset the counter to 0 so even if you flash back to stock you still run the risk of a TD1. He says its like nude photos on your phone, even though you delete them someone can still find them if they look hard enough.

**riceboy22** · 04-01-2016 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by SQive

As I understand it, the APR tune completely over-writes the ECU. If you have a relationship with a good Audi shop (non-dealer usually), that does your APR tune, they save the file and simply over-write the whole thing back to stock. This also over-writes the flash counter, resetting it to zero. I am APR stage 2, and I flashed immediately after my free 5K mile service. Now, I go to the same guy for service that did my tune, and if we find anything requiring dealer intervention, he'll flash it back for free. I love the SQ5. I'm on my second one. I love it even more with the tune. It's entirely your choice, but to counter some of the other posts here, I would go for it and find a shop like mine...with someone you trust. I also agree with the poster above that suggested trying to locate the original owner and find out where he had the work done. It's only stage 1, with 20K miles. I'd be like "Hey! Free tune!" but that's me.

Have you seen anyone who's had APR flash them back to stock and then gone in to check the flash counter in VAGCOM? Does it set it to zero or does it just set it to whatever you had before you were tuned? I ask because it sounds like the Audi diagnostic tool stores info on what the flash count was previously, so if you had 2 flashes before (which can happen with a non-tuned car), then you really want to be restored to that same flash count. I've also been told that Audi does not check the flash counter to flag TD1, but that could always change (or may not even be true anymore).

If you're good with your shop, maybe you can try it out in the interest of science LOL?

**riceboy22** · 04-01-2016 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by seanentrust

He says its like nude photos on your phone, even though you delete them someone can still find them if they look hard enough.

Now that's concerning LOL!

Re: flash counter, I did think it was odd that APR claimed they could reset the flash counter but other tuners don't seem to. It should be easy enough to verify as I mentioned above, but I haven't found confirmation online. Maybe I'm just not googling hard enough.

**SQ5LIFE** · 04-01-2016 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by riceboy22

Maybe I'm just not googling hard enough.

Google Harder lol.

**Smittylube** · 04-02-2016 10:09 AM

I scanned an A4 with APR tune last week and it showed 1 attempt, 1 successful flash. I'll look at mine when I get a chance and see if it shows 1 or 0.

**VroomVroom** · 04-02-2016 10:32 AM

OP, I assume you've driven the SQ, and you enjoyed it? I'd be moderately concerned about how a tuned-and-dropped vehicle was driven by the original owner before he traded it in. My guess is you're looking at front brakes and four tires in pretty short order - perhaps these are additional bargaining chips to go along with the tune and non-stock springs?

I'm a bottom-line kind of knucklehead, so I see it like this. If you're concerned about drivetrain warranty coverage - and you should be...this is a sporty vehicle that was probably driven like it was stolen once mods were made. If anything fails, the required dealer tech diagnostic effort will detect the tune (or if you have it returned to stock, the fact that two extra non-dealer-recorded reflashes took place) - you've got two options. The first is to simply walk away. There will be more and more '15 SQ5 models coming to market, and thanks to supply increases, they will have been impacted by depreciation. The deals will be there. The second option is to negotiate the hell out of the deal and pocket those savings as self insurance against any drivetrain failures.

Good luck....please keep us posted.

**SQ5.TO** · 04-03-2016 05:50 AM

You mention that you were told. Did you bother to verify. Ask seller to run the vehicle through Audi dealer to do a cpo and see what comes up in findings. May also give you peace of mind or bargaining chip. Besides you can always walk away. Best of luck.

**riceboy22** · 04-04-2016 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by Smittylube

I scanned an A4 with APR tune last week and it showed 1 attempt, 1 successful flash. I'll look at mine when I get a chance and see if it shows 1 or 0.

I checked mine yesterday and it shows 0. I'd still love to see what it shows for a car that has been flashed back to stock, both when a car has 0 flashes in the history and when that car has prior flashes (by Audi).

Flash Status
Programming Attempts(application): 0/0/0
Successful Attempts(application): 0/0/0
Programming Status: 00000000
Flash Date: 00.00.00

**djshaunmichael** · 04-06-2016 11:46 AM

What kind of deal were you able to work him down to finding out it had a tune and springs. Also in the market for a SQ.

**Jay337** · 04-15-2016 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by riceboy22

I'm not sure which part you're saying is inaccurate, but this post on the GOLFMK7 forums is the most comprehensive explanation of the process I've read: Warranty 101: Warranty and You - TD1, recalls, updates, Magnuson Moss, etc...

The short version is that your service department can see if the car has been flagged TD1 when they enter your VIN into ElsaPro. You don't need to be requesting a warranty repair for them to see that information. You are correct that the initial flagging of TD1 happens when your car gets scanned for a GFF log and that information gets sent back to the mothership. I actually saw on my invoice that they pulled a GFF log today when I had the car in for service. My point to the OP though was that he could request that they scan for faults, and if anything indicating a tune was found, that would then show up in ElsaPro. I doubt the turnaround on that is very long (if it's not instantaneous). It's definitely not being analyzed by "someone" considering how many scans must be done every day by Audi/VW. The general consensus seems to be that they are running a checksum validation.

As far as warranty goes, you are not getting the warranty on your engine and powertrain back when you get flagged TD1. I don't think any amount of lobbying your dealer does is going to make Audi change their mind on that. Could your dealer find a way to somehow get your repair covered by Audi? I suppose it's possible, but I certainly wouldn't want to depend on that when it comes to warranty coverage.

yes I understand but like I told you, my dealer came across that problem recently with a 2016 S4 and that's the way he explained to me.

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