Just installed ECS Catch CAn kit

[cybernet99]

Hey, just installed a new Audi PCV unit and the ECS catch can kit. Went well, super easy.

So, I took it for a drive and feels good, no issues. But I did notice something much different. Wondering if this is normal?

Previously, when the car was idling and I would pull the oil cap, it had a pretty strong vacuum. Now, when I pull the oil cap with it running, there is pressure????

Is this what should be expected? The way the ECS unit installs, it caps off the PCV feeds to the intake.

Before I put many miles on it in this condition, want to make sure this is considered normal and expected. I was expected it to still have a vacuum when I pulled the oil fill cap.

[lettuce]

I installed my ECS catch can kit about 2 months ago. Within a week my car developed 3 oil leaks after never leaking a drop. I replaced the leaking seals, gaskets and o-rings to no avail. I also pulled my intake manifold and noticed puddles of oil everywhere, including places it's never been when removing my intake previously (fuel injector wells and spark plug holes). I just reinstalled the intake PCV hose that the kit deletes a week ago and the leaks stopped overnight.

I'm still investigating what's going on, buy my preliminary findings is that according to the pdf on the EA888 2.0t tech below (page 18/19), our stock PCV systems have 2 lines to vent crankcase pressure, the "charged/boost" line which goes to the turbo inlet, and the "vacuum/NA" line which goes to the intake manifold. It doesn't seem like these lines are connected inside the PCV valve, so deleting one of them doesn't seem like a very good idea. Your evidence that the crankcase is pressurized at idle (not relieving pressure under vacuum conditions) lends itself to this theory.

http://www.vaglinks.com/vaglinks_com...fsi_engine.pdf

I'm still gathering info to come to a concrete conclusion before I do or say anything rash in regards to the quality of this product, but so far I'm not too pleased with my findings. If you have a spare moment and feel like doing some more investigative work, go out and pull off the two plugs you added and reinstall the intake PCV line then check your crankcase pressure again. See if you get vacuum back. I'm thinking you will, and that doesn't bode well for this kit.

[cybernet99]

Thanks @Lettuce for the quick reply. I will go give it a go and see. I'm assuming that will create the slight vacuum again as well.

I installed my ECS catch can kit about 2 months ago. Within a week my car developed 3 oil leaks after never leaking a drop. I replaced the leaking seals, gaskets and o-rings to no avail. I also pulled my intake manifold and noticed puddles of oil everywhere, including places it's never been when removing my intake previously (fuel injector wells and spark plug holes). I just reinstalled the intake PCV hose that the kit deletes a week ago and the leaks stopped overnight.

I'm still investigating what's going on, buy my preliminary findings is that according to the pdf on the EA888 2.0t tech below (page 18/19), our stock PCV systems have 2 lines to vent crankcase pressure, the "charged/boost" line which goes to the turbo inlet, and the "vacuum/NA" line which goes to the intake manifold. It doesn't seem like these lines are connected inside the PCV valve, so deleting one of them doesn't seem like a very good idea. Your evidence that the crankcase is pressurized at idle (not relieving pressure under vacuum conditions) lends itself to this theory.

http://www.vaglinks.com/vaglinks_com...fsi_engine.pdf

I'm still gathering info to come to a concrete conclusion before I do or say anything rash in regards to the quality of this product, but so far I'm not too pleased with my findings. If you have a spare moment and feel like doing some more investigative work, go out and pull off the two plugs you added and reinstall the intake PCV line then check your crankcase pressure again. See if you get vacuum back. I'm thinking you will, and that doesn't bode well for this kit.

[cybernet99]

Yup, confirmed @Lettuce. With the factory line from the PCV unit to the intake back in place the vacuum is back as is the rough idle with the cap pulled. This is what I was expecting to be considered normal.

I'm glad I didn't drive it very far or long .... hopefully I didn't bugger up any of the seals.

Which three seals did you end up blowing, was it visually easy to see the leaks?

[lettuce]

Yup, confirmed @Lettuce. With the factory line from the PCV unit to the intake back in place the vacuum is back as is the rough idle with the cap pulled. This is what I was expecting to be considered normal.

I'm glad I didn't drive it very far or long .... hopefully I didn't bugger up any of the seals.

Which three seals did you end up blowing, was it visually easy to see the leaks?

Yeah, not good. My turbo oil return and feed lines started leaking from the block, as well as the rear plate on the vacuum pump in the top rear of the motor. These were the obvious ones, it's possible there were more. I don't run with a belly pan so it was pretty obvious to me as I started seeing distinct drip spots on my garage floor.

I'd hate to pawn this kit off on someone else by selling it; wonder if ECS will stand behind their product and take care of it as running it with the intake PCV line attached basically renders it useless and running it without is destroying my motor.

[lettuce]

@adamazing is running this kit on his B8.5. I reached out to him via PM a few days ago and he was going to check his seals to see if he's having similar problems. Maybe he can chime in with his results as well.

[poweredbyaudi7]

Good thread. Being that an oil catch can is something that I plan on buying in the future, I am very interested in the outcome of this. There are issues with the BFI can as well according to a couple of people in the "what did you do to your B8" thread. Maybe these fans are more harm than good across the board.

For ref:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...1#post11502820

[John44]

Does anyone know if this is the same case for the CTS catch can kit? I just picked it up and haven't installed it yet.

[Shimmy]

bummer. I really liked this ECS setup

[auditd0rk]

Does anyone know if this is the same case for the CTS catch can kit? I just picked it up and haven't installed it yet.

Can only speak for my own experience with the CTS catch can... installed December 2013, never an issue. Hope you have the same trouble-free experience.

[lettuce]

Can only speak for my own experience with the CTS catch can... installed December 2013, never an issue. Hope you have the same trouble-free experience.

I'm not sure how the CTS can works exactly, but it does have one of those aluminum plates that replace the PCV valve. That could very well be engineered in such a way that all positive crankcase pressure gets vented out of the turbo hose. Since the ECS cans are using the stock PCV valve and capping off half the system, that's a whole different story.

I also have a feeling this issue with the ECS cans is exacerbated by the trash piston rings we have in our older motors. You won't be getting nearly as much blow-by in your '12 as OP and I in our CAEBs. That + pressure not being relieved = blown seals.

[chawaba]

Does anyone know if this is the same case for the CTS catch can kit? I just picked it up and haven't installed it yet.

I've had the CTS Catch can on my B8.5 for 3 years with no problems.

[adamazing]

Well, I finally had the time to go out and check my set-up. My view is a little obstructed by the Intake and ECS Heat Shield, so I can't get a clean look at the turbo oil feed lines without pulling it all apart. I tried to get a good look from as many angles as I could all around the engine. Aside form the normal valve cover seeping at the edges, I don't immediately see any oil leaks.

However, I do have considerable positive pressure coming out the oil cap opening once removed. Normal vacuum at the can itself. I remember reading a diagram that someone had pointed out a while back (before buying the can) about there being two channels for pressure in the OEM system - a primary and a deeper secondary channel.

I'd really like to Jason to get an ECS engineer in here to chime in. I love the design of this system and I'd really be disappointed if I had to pull it for long term safety - but now I'm concerned about the longevity of my seals.


Side note: How often do you find yourself emptying your can contents? I have to dump mine on average once a week. It's 95% condensation of course, but there's oil residue in every dump.

[lettuce]

Well, I finally had the time to go out and check my set-up. My view is a little obstructed by the Intake and ECS Heat Shield, so I can't get a clean look at the turbo oil feed lines without pulling it all apart. I tried to get a good look from as many angles as I could all around the engine. Aside form the normal valve cover seeping at the edges, I don't immediately see any oil leaks.

However, I do have considerable positive pressure coming out the oil cap opening once removed. Normal vacuum at the can itself. I remember reading a diagram that someone had pointed out a while back (before buying the can) about there being two channels for pressure in the OEM system - a primary and a deeper secondary channel.

I'd really like to Jason to get an ECS engineer in here to chime in. I love the design of this system and I'd really be disappointed if I had to pull it for long term safety - but now I'm concerned about the longevity of my seals.

Good news regarding your leak situation. And I too would like to hear from the engineers over at ECS. Not that they'd ever come out and admit these things have a serious fundamental design flaw (if that is the case), but it'd certainly be interesting to hear what they have to say.

Side note: How often do you find yourself emptying your can contents? I have to dump mine on average once a week. It's 95% condensation of course, but there's oil residue in every dump.

I'd been emptying mine roughly every other day due to the fact that it's winter and I wanted to be extra careful not to run with a full can that could potentially freeze up. Of course it's been so mild I can probably count the number of times it's dropped below freezing on one hand anyway. I think the longest I went was 3 or 4 days and it was about halfway full.

Almost all water too; I've pulled virtually zero oil out of it in the two months I had it installed. Pretty disappointing considering how much oil I'm burning.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

I'd really like to Jason to get an ECS engineer in here to chime in. I love the design of this system and I'd really be disappointed if I had to pull it for long term safety - but now I'm concerned about the longevity of my seals.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. During extensive long term testing on our own B8 A4, these issues were not observed. We are looking into this, and will report back with our findings.

Jason

[cybernet99]

Hi Jason, Any feedback from the design engineers?

As a side notes for others, I've been running the catch can for the past week, not a ton of mileage, but probably 300KM and not a drop of oil has appeared in the catch can with the low pressure line connected to the intake, and the high pressure line feeding the can from the turbo.

No leaks yet either ...

I'd really like to get the low pressure side redirected through the catch can and see what happens with the amount of oil to catch, but not at the expense of blowing a bunch of seals.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. During extensive long term testing on our own B8 A4, these issues were not observed. We are looking into this, and will report back with our findings.

Jason

[o1turbo30v]

Yet another reason not to waste your money on these catch cans.

[cybernet99]

LOL, ... Unfortunately it's starting to look that way ...

Yet another reason not to waste your money on these catch cans.

[Party_Marty]

I too have the ECS Catch Can. I've been emptying it every other week so far. I don't like the sound of the possible damage it could cause though. Let me know if I can help out guys. I'll check for leaks tomorrow or Sunday. The last thing I want to know is that I wasted close to 500 on a product that ruins my engine....

[Party_Marty]

Alright, I have not seen any leaks around the turbo but I have seen a decrease in my oil level (could be consumption related). Jason, have you found anything on this?

[adamazing]

I re-installed my manifold port and vacuum was restored to my cylinder head. I'll drive around like this for a while while ECS works to resolve this. My can still has vacuum as well, so hopefully it still has SOME functionality.

[cybernet99]

So you are running your can the way I have been running mine for over a week then ... I pulled the can to double check if there was anything in there yesterday ... Nada ... not a drop of anything!

So, for me it looks like the problem is squarely on the low pressure side of things ...

Thanks everyone for continuing to chime in and learn from each other.

I re-installed my manifold port and vacuum was restored to my cylinder head. I'll drive around like this for a while while ECS works to resolve this. My can still has vacuum as well, so hopefully it still has SOME functionality.

[Party_Marty]

I just reattached the line from the crankcase to the air manifold. After a couple nights thinking about it, I think that keeping that line originally might have been the better option. Then again, if ECS has done rigorous testing, they should have some answers.

[WAF]

I'm glad i didn't get one now. My spidy sense was tingling when i had it in the cart then removed it. Hopefully ECS has a solution, or will take care of you.

[Audi-Quattro]

Side note: How often do you find yourself emptying your can contents? I have to dump mine on average once a week. It's 95% condensation of course, but there's oil residue in every dump.

Where do you live where you get significant condensation under the hood like that?
-South Florida and I have almost only oil.

[adamazing]

Where do you live where you get significant condensation under the hood like that?
-South Florida and I have almost only oil.

San Diego. My can is at least half full after every week. That is, until I re-installed the PCV vacuum port.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

Lack of vacuum at idle and during low engine load conditions is something that is to be expected with any kit that removes the connection between the intake manifold and the PCV valve or crankcase. At this time, we are not aware of any catch can kit for this chassis/motor that retains the connection between the manifold and the crankcase. Without the intake manifold connected to the system, the only vacuum that will be available will be the light vacuum that is created by the turbo. This should never be present at idle, so it is reasonable to expect there to be a small amount of crankcase pressure at idle.



Before beginning the design of this catch can kit, we spent a lot of time analyzing and understanding the TSI PCV system. During this analysis, it became very clear that the oil separators in the OEM PCV system were a product of lots of R&D at VW/Audi, so we felt that supplementing them would be a better option than removing them entirely. This approach results in superior system functionality with less maintenance, while allowing us to pass the cost savings on to the customer by not having to replace the PCV valve with an expensive to machine billet part.



Through our analysis of the system, we determined that by capping off the connection between the manifold and the PCV valve, we would be able to eliminate the failure-prone check valve, while maintaining the OEM “charging mode” flow path under all conditions – (idle, low load and full boost). With any PCV system, blow-by and resultant crank case pressure are at their greatest when under high load (high boost)/high RPM operating conditions, making this an ideal way to use both the OEM oil separators and our baffled catch can.



At this time, it is unclear if the reported issues with leaking seals are related to the piston ring sealing issues in early B8s, failing PCV valves, or a combination of both factors. All of our testing was completed with the most up to date PCV valve available at the time. With that in mind, it is necessary to have a fully functioning PCV system before installing this kit to ensure proper functionality. During initial testing, we logged crankcase pressure with and without the intake to PCV hose installed. The results of the testing were very favorable, and the kit has remained installed on our shop B8 since prototype testing began with no signs of oil leaks.



Through our recent research, it appears that the issue with leaking seals seems to be exclusive to early vehicles. We are continuing to look into this matter, and would be happy to swap an updated PCV valve for a customer with our kit installed who is experiencing leaks at the turbo seals to confirm that a faulty valve can cause the conditions seen by some forum members. Please PM for more details if you meet these testing criteria.



Thanks!

[cybernet99]

Thanks for the response!

I guess I could be one of the candidates to do some additional testing. As part of this install I bought and installed a new OEM PCV valve.

I can confirm the following:

I have 140,000KM's on the motor
Stage 2 Unitronic, 35K since implemented
Driving style, "normal" with bursts of fun at freeway on ramps
Oil consumption, at 100,000K - 2000km per litre
Current oil consumption, at 140,000k has dropped quickly to 500km per litre
Oil leaks, none apparent

Car runs normal, no CEL, smooth idle, good power
I purchased and installed the ECS kit and complete OEM PCV unit at the same time. I've been running it for a few weeks now. Only had the low pressure intake line installed for 100KM. No oil leaks. For fear of creating leaks, removed the caps and re-installed the factory connector line to the intake manifold. (BTW - Those plastic clips for the caps both snapped. I would strongly suggest creating them with metal instead of plastic. Maybe it was just too cold when I was installing the kit? Both snapped when they were being installed. And yes, IU did catch the bit about filing off the little bit of the PCV valve end to make sure the cap slid all of the way on. That wasn't the problem.)

I have plans to pull and build the motor in the summer in preparation for an EFR. So, ... if I do put the catch can line to the intake back on ... then it would be a confirmation that the combination of an older motor with the piston ring/oil consumption issue would be a recipe for blown seals.

Thoughts?

if you want to ship me a set of replacement clips that would be much appreciated. When I go to put the intake line back in place, I will use some small wire to wrap around the caps where the clips would slide to hold them in place.

Tim

Lack of vacuum at idle and during low engine load conditions is something that is to be expected with any kit that removes the connection between the intake manifold and the PCV valve or crankcase. At this time, we are not aware of any catch can kit for this chassis/motor that retains the connection between the manifold and the crankcase. Without the intake manifold connected to the system, the only vacuum that will be available will be the light vacuum that is created by the turbo. This should never be present at idle, so it is reasonable to expect there to be a small amount of crankcase pressure at idle.



Before beginning the design of this catch can kit, we spent a lot of time analyzing and understanding the TSI PCV system. During this analysis, it became very clear that the oil separators in the OEM PCV system were a product of lots of R&D at VW/Audi, so we felt that supplementing them would be a better option than removing them entirely. This approach results in superior system functionality with less maintenance, while allowing us to pass the cost savings on to the customer by not having to replace the PCV valve with an expensive to machine billet part.



Through our analysis of the system, we determined that by capping off the connection between the manifold and the PCV valve, we would be able to eliminate the failure-prone check valve, while maintaining the OEM “charging mode” flow path under all conditions – (idle, low load and full boost). With any PCV system, blow-by and resultant crank case pressure are at their greatest when under high load (high boost)/high RPM operating conditions, making this an ideal way to use both the OEM oil separators and our baffled catch can.



At this time, it is unclear if the reported issues with leaking seals are related to the piston ring sealing issues in early B8s, failing PCV valves, or a combination of both factors. All of our testing was completed with the most up to date PCV valve available at the time. With that in mind, it is necessary to have a fully functioning PCV system before installing this kit to ensure proper functionality. During initial testing, we logged crankcase pressure with and without the intake to PCV hose installed. The results of the testing were very favorable, and the kit has remained installed on our shop B8 since prototype testing began with no signs of oil leaks.



Through our recent research, it appears that the issue with leaking seals seems to be exclusive to early vehicles. We are continuing to look into this matter, and would be happy to swap an updated PCV valve for a customer with our kit installed who is experiencing leaks at the turbo seals to confirm that a faulty valve can cause the conditions seen by some forum members. Please PM for more details if you meet these testing criteria.



Thanks!

[McFuzz]

Can only speak for my own experience with the CTS catch can... installed December 2013, never an issue. Hope you have the same trouble-free experience.

Late for the party but likewise here; installed in November of last year.

[Party_Marty]

I have to double up with Cybernet99, One of my clips broke, So I very very very carefully installed the next one. Really a small part but maybe if better material was used, it wouldn't have any issues.

[ccoaston]

why why why a catch can

[poweredbyaudi7]

Can only speak for my own experience with the CTS catch can... installed December 2013, never an issue. Hope you have the same trouble-free experience.

I've had the CTS Catch can on my B8.5 for 3 years with no problems.

Late for the party but likewise here; installed in November of last year.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ch-can-problem

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

After further analysis and testing, we are confident that the leaking seals experienced by some customers are a result of a pre-existing condition of excessive crankcase pressure that plagues some of the early B8 A4s.

Although the crankcase pressure at idle is considerably lower than that experienced during high boost and/or high RPM conditions, removing the vacuum at idle (a feature that ECS kits, as well as kits that delete the PCV valve entirely) appears to exacerbate the leaks at select seals.

For kits like ours that retain the OEM PCV valve, there is a simple fix that can be implemented to regain vacuum at idle. As some forum members have already noted, the hose between the PCV valve and manifold can be reinstalled in place of the provided caps. While this is not an option for all catch can kits on the market; making this change to our kit will retain the function of the catch can under boost (when you need it most), while routing the blow-by gases to the intake manifold when under vacuum. This continues to allow the PCV valve and related oil separators to function as intended by Audi, with the added benefit of keeping your intake tract free of the oil vapor that would normally be pushed back into the intake pre-turbo.

We encourage customers who have later models, and those who have not experienced any leaking to continue to use their ECS Catch Can Kit as originally designed.


Thanks,

ECS R&D Team

[S4'ed]

The ultimate catch can design would retain the factory PCV pressure-regulator/oil separator unit, and add two cans, one in series with the PCV line from the PCV unit to the turbo inlet duct, and a second can in series with the PCV line from the PCV unit to the intake manifold.

[adamazing]

After further analysis and testing, we are confident that the leaking seals experienced by some customers are a result of a pre-existing condition of excessive crankcase pressure that plagues some of the early B8 A4s.

Although the crankcase pressure at idle is considerably lower than that experienced during high boost and/or high RPM conditions, removing the vacuum at idle (a feature that ECS kits, as well as kits that delete the PCV valve entirely) appears to exacerbate the leaks at select seals.

For kits like ours that retain the OEM PCV valve, there is a simple fix that can be implemented to regain vacuum at idle. As some forum members have already noted, the hose between the PCV valve and manifold can be reinstalled in place of the provided caps. While this is not an option for all catch can kits on the market; making this change to our kit will retain the function of the catch can under boost (when you need it most), while routing the blow-by gases to the intake manifold when under vacuum. This continues to allow the PCV valve and related oil separators to function as intended by Audi, with the added benefit of keeping your intake tract free of the oil vapor that would normally be pushed back into the intake pre-turbo.

We encourage customers who have later models, and those who have not experienced any leaking to continue to use their ECS Catch Can Kit as originally designed.


Thanks,

ECS R&D Team

I reinstalled the manifold port about 10 days ago - as a precaution while you guys did your testing & analysis. I would routinely collect about 1/2 to 3/4 can worth of vapor and condensate per week.
In the 10 days that I've been running with the port reinstalled, my can is bone dry. It's not collecting any vapor or condensate whatsoever.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

I reinstalled the manifold port about 10 days ago - as a precaution while you guys did your testing & analysis. I would routinely collect about 1/2 to 3/4 can worth of vapor and condensate per week.
In the 10 days that I've been running with the port reinstalled, my can is bone dry. It's not collecting any vapor or condensate whatsoever.

You have a 2013 this shouldn't apply to your vehicle. You should be using your catch can as originally designed.

Jason

[adamazing]

Understood, but a follow up question:
When hooked up according to the design, where does all that positive valve cover pressure go? There's a considerable amount when you remove the oil cap.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

Understood, but a follow up question:
When hooked up according to the design, where does all that positive valve cover pressure go? There's a considerable amount when you remove the oil cap.

Through the PCV valve, through the catch can, and back into the turbo. For what it is worth - our testing showed considerably lower crankcase pressure at idle than in high load/high boost conditions.

It's when you have excessive vacuum that there is an issue. For example if you go to remove your oil cap and it's very difficult to remove because the vacuum is so strong.

Jason

[S4'ed]

You will only get excessive vacuum if the pressure regulator diaphragm (part of the factory PCV unit) ruptures.

[inNout]

Any long term review for the ecs kit?