Camshaft lobe and lifter destroyed - 3.0L

[A4alaska]

So I have a decent project going on with my A4 3.0L B6. I did try doing a search but didn't find much result on the forum.

A camshaft lobe is worn down and lifter destroyed on the passenger side exhaust side, middle cylinder.

I would like to know what my best options are for repair.

1. Buy an entire head to salvage the camshaft and lifters?
2. buy just the cam new and all new lifter?

3. what is a good source for either 1 or 2?
4. do I replace ALL NEW lifter for the entire head whether I go with 1 or 2?

I have not found a source for a new cam but for lifters I found Pelican parts, OEM and genuine Audi. The price difference was remarkable though, $15 for OEM and $50 for Audi.

Another question I have is what could have caused this failure.
I have seen in other threads that the PCV was suspect for failure of lobe closest to fire wall

[SJorge3442]

So I have a decent project going on with my A4 3.0L B6. I did try doing a search but didn't find much result on the forum.

A camshaft lobe is worn down and lifter destroyed on the passenger side exhaust side, middle cylinder.

I would like to know what my best options are for repair.

1. Buy an entire head to salvage the camshaft and lifters?
2. buy just the cam new and all new lifter?

3. what is a good source for either 1 or 2?
4. do I replace ALL NEW lifter for the entire head whether I go with 1 or 2?

I have not found a source for a new cam but for lifters I found Pelican parts, OEM and genuine Audi. The price difference was remarkable though, $15 for OEM and $50 for Audi.

Another question I have is what could have caused this failure.
I have seen in other threads that the PCV was suspect for failure of lobe closest to fire wall

I would find a rebuilt AND cam. The early 3.0's (2002 and early 2003's) had camshafts which were not properly hardened which resulted in this happening to many AVK engines. I would look for a head from a 2004 as those cams should be good to use and properly hardened. You're taking a gamble on a 2003 head as you never know if its an early version or later revision.

[cschuster]

04' head is probably the cheapest option. New brand new cams are 450ish. Check the driver side too - you may need to reconsider your strategy if that side is also bad. Europa part link

Passenger side exhaust cam P/N: 06C109022G
Driver side exhaust cam P/N: 06C109022F

The combination of PCV failure and lack of cam hardening is my theory. Shit, my early 2002 cams looked fine at 155k. 95% highway miles since 75k, so the engine is hot and there's no crap from the PCV system sitting on the cams for too long to cause pitting (drive 400ish miles/week).

[A4alaska]

thanks guys,

cshuster - do you know if the cam Europa sells is for '04 and not '02?

[cschuster]

thanks guys,

cshuster - do you know if the cam Europa sells is for '04 and not '02?

Those part rev letters should be the latest. Europa or ECS could probably confirm that. If the car is apart you can read the rev off your current cam.

[A4alaska]

I am doing a parts search online for used cam for 2004.

For the search engine I am trying to make sure I get the correct selection on the VIN.

options for 3.0L are
Sdn and SW, from VIN 35001
Sdn and SW, from VIN 35000

I have a 2002 A4 sedan

[cjt671]

Myself and a few other people I know have been fine just replacing the cams and all lifters on the b5 s4..
It really depends on if there is damage to the cam journal and lifter bore, and if the valve was damaged by not being able to open and close properly. I personally had some damage to the lifter bore but got rid of the high spots with sand paper and made sure the lifter still moved normally before assembling. Car has been running with no issues for a few thousand miles now. If you can afford to/are able to replace the head that's your best bet, if there isn't any major damage to the valve and head I think you could get away with just cams and lifters..

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[A4alaska]

whats the difference between

Sdn and SW, from VIN 35001
Sdn and SW, from VIN 35000

[CyberPMG]

That happened to me to my 2002 A4 3.0. Better do a compression test and check the cylinder walls. The material from the cam lobe have likely scored the cylinder walls. There may be more damage than you think.

[A4alaska]

That happened to me to my 2002 A4 3.0. Better do a compression test and check the cylinder walls. The material from the cam lobe have likely scored the cylinder walls. There may be more damage than you think.

performed a leak down test and good
checked the cylinder wall and nice and smooth.

Im on the fence on deciding new camshaft and followers or buy used head. Cost will be about a wash for me.
I think my next step is to take it into a head shop so they can check it out to see if I can re-use the head and just replace the camshaft and followers. If it is beyond rebuild then I will continue my search for a used head on an '04.

what would they be checking:
- camshaft bearing tolerance
- valve seat OK
- follower bore OK
- valve not bent
anything else?

Also,
I have checked ECS and Europa parts for camshaft.
They are about the same price.
- any suggestions on which vender I should go with? ECS says genuine Audi part, Europa just says OEM
- What are the chances I will be buying another bad 2002 crankshaft?

[imnuts]

- What are the chances I will be buying another bad 2002 crankshaft?

Unless you're buying it used or from a shady online store/eBay, very slim. Audi made the product revision very early in the 2003 model year and everything since then has been OK. Even if you went to the dealer and asked specifically for parts for a 2002 3.0, you'd get the revised cams.

[A4alaska]

so ive decided to go with a new exhaust side camshaft. Likely through Europa parts.

QUESTION:
where can I get valve guides?

I am also going to have a local shop go through and rebuild the head for me with all new followers.

More Questions:
what else should I ask them to pay attention to?


- camshaft bearing tolerance
- valve seat OK
- follower bore OK
anything else?

[diagnosticator]

whats the difference between

Sdn and SW, from VIN 35001
Sdn and SW, from VIN 35000

The above VINs are properly written as 8E-2/3/4/5- > 350000, and 8E-2/3/4/5 350001> The VIN notation is 8E: B6/B7 A4, -2/3/4/5 model year, 2002/03/04/05, > up to VIN number nnnnnn, nnnnnn> from VIN number nnnnnn

[Kevin C]

so ive decided to go with a new exhaust side camshaft. Likely through Europa parts.

QUESTION:
where can I get valve guides?

I am also going to have a local shop go through and rebuild the head for me with all new followers.

More Questions:
what else should I ask them to pay attention to?


- camshaft bearing tolerance
- valve seat OK
- follower bore OK
anything else?

The machine shop typically sources the guides for you and will probably have a prefered / recommended source and material.

[A4alaska]

OK, so ive got everything back together from this:
and started it up this morning at 2AM.

[IMG][/IMG].


She runs a little rough and white smoke is coming out of the tail pipe. I was tired and I chickened out to let it run for any real period of time.

Here is what I did on my final steps before start-up:

- filled it up with distilled water only, as I am going to do a flush.
- Put 0w-40 mobile in it
- drained the 1/3 tank of 2 year old gas out of it and put in new 90oct along with seafoam.

I can't really explain what is causing the white smoke but I hope it goes away. I am going to take one of the valve covers off tonight to make sure it is circulating oil into the head.

Any advice out there? Run it??

[SJorge3442]

OK, so ive got everything back together from this:
and started it up this morning at 2AM.

[IMG][/IMG].


She runs a little rough and white smoke is coming out of the tail pipe. I was tired and I chickened out to let it run for any real period of time.

Here is what I did on my final steps before start-up:

- filled it up with distilled water only, as I am going to do a flush.
- Put 0w-40 mobile in it
- drained the 1/3 tank of 2 year old gas out of it and put in new 90oct along with seafoam.

I can't really explain what is causing the white smoke but I hope it goes away. I am going to take one of the valve covers off tonight to make sure it is circulating oil into the head.

Any advice out there? Run it??

Saying it runs rough is a little vague. Are you getting any misses? Is the car vibrating? Is it just a clanky valve train that you hear? Did you double check timing to ensure everything is all lined up? I know when I did my timing, I had to reset the timing 2 times in order to get it fully in place. You mentioned you put seafoam in the tank. Sea foam in large doses causes white smoke/steam. It could be that?

[Skip_Brackett]

Mine ran rough initially. Burned some oil off the cylinder tops from being open. Did sea foam before the tear down. Took some miles for everything to clear out #6 exhaust cam and lifter failure

[A4alaska]

thanks Jorge.

I believe what I am hearing is noisy valve train. maybe oil pressure just needs to build in the cam followers.

I set the timing back to where it was before; cam position. Driver side cam and Crank did not change.

how did you know your timing was off (indications) and what told you that you finally had it correct?

[SJorge3442]

thanks Jorge.

I believe what I am hearing is noisy valve train. maybe oil pressure just needs to build in the cam followers.

I set the timing back to where it was before; cam position. Driver side cam and Crank did not change.

how did you know your timing was off (indications) and what told you that you finally had it correct?

Marks just weren't lining up on the crank and timing cover. The crank rotated while I was tensioning the tensioner.

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[A4alaska]

Cooling system issues:

so the engine smoothed out and no more smoke out the tail pipe. I have cooling system issues though.

I have read the posts on the forum about how to bleed the system and have performed those tasks.

Issue 1:
when I first start up the engine, even when it is cold the dummy light for temperature comes on the dash.
Temperature gets up to 1/2 way on gauge and Temp never comes down. I have plenty of heat at the interior vents so getting heat to the core.

Issue 2:
Radiator fan never comes on. I have checked fuses and pulled connections and reconnected at fans and coils.


Issue 3:
the bottom and top radiator hoses never seem to warm up. Radiator is full as I pulled the top hose and water came out. Water is also coming out of the bleeder on the hard line to bottom hose.

Issue 4:
seems to be a gravel sound coming from area of water pump. New WP with TB changeout.



So what are your thoughts out there?

- Maybe airlock still?
- Drive it and see if temp will get high enough to force fan on and see if I can get the temp gauge to come down?

Im just trying to be careful after spending so much time after dealing with this cam issue.

[SJorge3442]

Cooling system issues:

so the engine smoothed out and no more smoke out the tail pipe. I have cooling system issues though.

I have read the posts on the forum about how to bleed the system and have performed those tasks.

Issue 1:
when I first start up the engine, even when it is cold the dummy light for temperature comes on the dash.
Temperature gets up to 1/2 way on gauge and Temp never comes down. I have plenty of heat at the interior vents so getting heat to the core.

Issue 2:
Radiator fan never comes on. I have checked fuses and pulled connections and reconnected at fans and coils.


Issue 3:
the bottom and top radiator hoses never seem to warm up. Radiator is full as I pulled the top hose and water came out. Water is also coming out of the bleeder on the hard line to bottom hose.

Issue 4:
seems to be a gravel sound coming from area of water pump. New WP with TB changeout.



So what are your thoughts out there?

- Maybe airlock still?
- Drive it and see if temp will get high enough to force fan on and see if I can get the temp gauge to come down?

Im just trying to be careful after spending so much time after dealing with this cam issue.

Hmm. The temp light comes on at start up? I'd scan with VCDS (you have VCDS right?) and see what codes are showing up. With the 3.0 the fans should never come on while just idling. It'll also take some time to just get up to the operating temp from an idle too. If you think you have air in the system, park the car on an incline (nose down) and keep the cap off the reservoir for a while. You can also park the car nose up and use the bleeder screw on the hard pipe. You can also purge air from the heater core upper hose when your in a nose down fashion. You probably know this, but you always want the air to escape from the high part of the system.

The whole rock sounding this is concerning. You used a new WP so I'm confused about that. Did you replace your serp belt tensioner? Maybe a bearing in there is shot?

[A4alaska]

thanks Jorge,

I have a friend who has the VAG com software and hardware so we can check out any codes next week.

ill try parking nose high and using the bleeder on hard pipe, worth a shot.

I replaced all idler and tensioner pulleys. the noise is not too loud but definitely noticeable.

[A4alaska]

Any idea why idiot light is coming on at start up?

[imnuts]

Maybe it's just me, but what temperature light is coming on? Based on your descriptions, I'd say it sounds like you have either a thermostat or temp sensor problem, most likely thermostat given the house temps. The rattling noise I'd guess is a bad bearing on the water pump or one of the replacement pulleys.

Sent from my DROID Turbo 2

[A4alaska]

The idiot light that comes on is a big giant indicator on the message screen in between the tach and speedo.
Can someone tell me where the sending unit is for the temperature

[A4alaska]

Sorry, idiot moment. I was getting the signal due to not connecting the electrical connection on reservoir.

I am still concerned though that engine temp is getting above half on gauge and fan is not coming on and fluid in radiator is cool.

I've been attempting to burp it without success.

Any ideas what is going on?

[SJorge3442]

Sorry, idiot moment. I was getting the signal due to not connecting the electrical connection on reservoir.

I am still concerned though that engine temp is getting above half on gauge and fan is not coming on and fluid in radiator is cool.

I've been attempting to burp it without success.

Any ideas what is going on?

Like I mentioned earlier. The. 3.0 is tough to get to temp or hotter than normal at idle. Gotta drive it to get it hot. I'd first find out what bearing is giving you an issue. I'd suggest removing the accessory belt and starting the car to see if it's a bearing on the timing belt or an accessory like your tensioner, ac condenser, or the alternator.

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[diagnosticator]

whats the difference between

Sdn and SW, from VIN 35001
Sdn and SW, from VIN 35000

That should be stated as Up To VIN <xxxxxn, and From VIN xxxxxn+1>

This is called a VIN split. If a VIN split exists for a certain part, then a change to the part and part number was made during production.

[john_gonzo]

... I replaced all idler and tensioner pulleys. the noise is not too loud but definitely noticeable.

Power steering pump?

[SJorge3442]

Power steering pump?

Yeah thats where I'm getting at. I think his bearing noise may be an accessory and not the WP. I mean, the WP bearing could be shot, or one of the other TB component rollers, but I'd probably bet its an accessory and not a new bearing, although its not far fetched.

[diagnosticator]

Hmm. The temp light comes on at start up? I'd scan with VCDS (you have VCDS right?) and see what codes are showing up. With the 3.0 the fans should never come on while just idling. It'll also take some time to just get up to the operating temp from an idle too. If you think you have air in the system, park the car on an incline (nose down) and keep the cap off the reservoir for a while. You can also park the car nose up and use the bleeder screw on the hard pipe. You can also purge air from the heater core upper hose when your in a nose down fashion. You probably know this, but you always want the air to escape from the high part of the system.

The whole rock sounding this is concerning. You used a new WP so I'm confused about that. Did you replace your serp belt tensioner? Maybe a bearing in there is shot?

Just for clarification, the driver's side fan is the radiator cooling fan. The passenger's side fan is the A/C condenser cooling fan and is normally running when the HVAC is in AUTO mode, or Manual Mode. The A/C fan does not run with the system in ECON mode.

[SJorge3442]

Just for clarification, the driver's side fan is the radiator cooling fan. The passenger's side fan is the A/C condenser cooling fan and is normally running when the HVAC is in AUTO mode, or Manual Mode. The A/C fan does not run with the system in ECOM mode.

Hmm. The more you know. I've been around here for about 3 years now and this is the first time I'm hearing this. Gonna test this this afternoon.

[A4alaska]

I am getting a lot of water buildup in the PCV piping. when I disconnected it from the valve cover it poured out of there.

Is this normal and if not what is likely the cause?

[SJorge3442]

I am getting a lot of water buildup in the PCV piping. when I disconnected it from the valve cover it poured out of there.

Is this normal and if not what is likely the cause?

This happens when the car isn't ran long enough for the moisture in the oil to burn off. Everytkme you run your car and turn it off, eater gathers in the form on condensate due to temp changes in he the oil while cooling. This is fine, because the next time you run your car and get it up to operating temperature, this water gets burned off. If you go on a ton of short drives, this is why "they " recommend changing your oil more often if you do a ton of short drives.

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[A4alaska]

This is wonderful!

I've got an oil leak on the re-built head on the back side near the firewall. It's pretty bad and drips on the exhaust pipe. I've used a mirror but still cannot tell exactly where it's coming from. By feeling around back there I can tell it's not coming from the valve cover gasket.

- Can someone send me a pic of the back of their cylinder head that shows the whole back side, I went through my pics and I didn't take one.
- Again I'm trying to pinpoint where the leak might be coming from.

[AudiA4_20T]

hang in there, you're in the homestretch. Fingers crossed it's not the HG and it's maybe a cam tensioner in the back? I can't remember if the 3.0L has them set up like the older V6s

[SJorge3442]

There's a gasket at the back of the head that covers the cams. I bet this gasket is leaking on you. Not sure if it can be replaced with the head on the engine though. Probably.

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[john_gonzo]

There's a gasket at the back of the head that covers the cams. I bet this gasket is leaking on you. Not sure if it can be replaced with the head on the engine though. Probably.

Item #12. PN: 06C103121E. This can be replaced with the head installed.

[diagnosticator]

I am getting a lot of water buildup in the PCV piping. when I disconnected it from the valve cover it poured out of there.

Is this normal and if not what is likely the cause?

For every gallon of gas used by the engine, one gallon of water is produced in the combustion products. Consequently, the blow-by gasses in the crankcase contain a lot of water vapor. When the gasses pass through the PCV system, the water vapor is cooled and condenses to liquid water and accumulates in the PCV system. Some liquid water will be trapped in the PCV system until the engine and PCV plumbing gets hot enough during a long drive to re-vaporize the liquid water that will be vented into the intake air flow and "burned" by the engine.

[A4alaska]

thank you Jorge and Gonzo,
From what I can see this does appear to be the area the oil is coming from, and not down lower by the head gasket and not higher by the valve cover gasket.

I will go online and see where I can get Item 12 gasket.

Question:
- does the top cap that retains the cam shafts need to come off or anything else, Meaning can I remove the cam covers at the back independently?
- Does this gasket require sealant?