Camshaft Chain Tensioner conundrum ..

[rollerton]

So, I have this S6 with cold start rattle. I know, it's typical, but also not a thing I think I can ignore. At 200k miles I need to deal with it. I have a set of pads for them.
My situation is this;
#1 I am NOT going to spend $700 a piece for tensioners, so the 'you get what you pay for' lecture is out the window. I won't do it.
#2. At 200k miles am I fixing anything by replacing the pads only? I mean, technically the tensioners can fail even if pads are replaced. It'd be great to feel like after doing the work I have made progress instead of just added some time to the clock.
#3. Last time I did one was on a 2.8 Passat..like 7 years ago? I think I remember the passenger bank being doable without a bunch of headache, leaving timing belt in place. But the drivers side is foggy. I can't remember..I think I can do this w/o messing with the timing belt. Anyone done it..?

Aaaand #4. Here we go. Used Tensioners VS Chinese cheap ones. I have bought many Chinese knock-off parts and actually have not been disappointed yet. I mean, it seems to good to be true. Is it? Is it worse than a used one than has xx million miles and STILL costs more?

Having had pretty good luck with the cheap parts before I can look at is as either the parts are actually Okay, OR that my luck has to run out and I'm asking for disappointment?

I really need to do it soon..LAME!

[glennda5id]

ECS sells an original equipment supplier version for $219...

[4rings2turbos]

I've successfully used the Europa ones and those are much cheaper and very high quality as well.

Replacing the pads only help if the pads are severely worn or broken, otherwise it doesn't solve anything.


And finally both can be done with the TB in place. On the 2.7T the bank 2 timing cover is in the way and needs to either be bent slightly or the front cover removed and a bolt or two taken out of the rear cover so it can move. Nothing too crazy.

Make sure you don't tension them too far with the tool, you can damage them and, I know you know this, put some nice nail polish marks on the cams and chain. It's much easier than trying to count links and using cam caps for timing afterward.

[JTown77]

I would love to see a detailed write up of this afterwards!

I have only changed chains on the 2.7. However being the new owner of an s6 I need to start the learning process over again.

[Hobartian]

Perhaps the high price for genuine O.E.M. parts is Audi's way of getting you to upgrade to a new car with a warranty.

It would seem to me that an Audi Allroad C5 could be kept running indefinitely if the price of parts were reasonable.

I don't think the factory envisaged people still driving the cars sixteen years after they were sold. I visited Germany some time ago and

was told that ten years was the cut off point. I saw five year old vehicles in quite good condition being fed into a recycling machine.

In the mean time I am trying to decide whether to spend $1430 Australian dollars for two genuine front shock absorbers!

[rollerton]

Yeah...I need to get this done, the noise is not a good sign. Runs quiet, but cold start is rattling. But the cheapest I see them on ECS's site is $375 each. I just can't decide if the shinese part is worth the risk, but the whole set, timing chains, VC gaskets and all is $265. Sketchy?
I'm tempted to try. What if they're just fine? I mean, even if they only last 30k miles I'm okay as long as they show a sign before they crap out.

edit; if you compare the pictures on ECS's site for $375 each ...it looks like the tensioners might be the exact same ones on Ebay for $90 each. Visually they're identical, the SAME casting numbers in the exact same spot.


Ebay





ECS





Screw it. I'll let you know how they look when they show up. There's hundreds of positive reviews of the 1.8 chain tensioners, why would these be any different?

[Arsenal2012]

Yeah at 200k just gamble
Its a good reason to swap if it fails.

[bpark1210]

I'll chime in since I just got done w/ all that TB maintenance BS. To remove the CCT on the driver's side you'll have to remove the timing belt since the cam will need to be lifted to remove the cam chain and CCT. I've never heard of anyone being able to lift the cam chain out of the way w/o lifting the entire cam, remember the drivers side is opposite of the passenger bank w/ the tensioner on the fwd end connected by the camshaft sprocket to the belt. I don't believe you can create enough slack in the chain to create room to remove the tensioner itself.



In this pic I've got my lock bar in place since I didn't have to remove the cams to get to the leaking CCT seal. To remove the entire assembly you'd have to get the exhaust cam off which is the one connected by the cam sprocket to TB.



As far as pads or whole tensioner replacement debate, I'm kind of in the same dilemma. I noticed a rattle on the passenger side after I completed the TB job but it has since gone away after breaking in some good LiquiMoly oil. I know at some point when I open bank 1 though I'll probably find a loose chain or bad tensioner pads. I've asked my indy mechanic in the past about my Passat CCT when it was making noise and he said it's usually the pads or chain that stretches and not the tensioner. I've seen the pads for sale here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Set-of-2-Cam...tWqkOz&vxp=mtr

and it's very tempting to just go w/ pads since it seems to be the point of failure not the tensioner itself. With the money saved you could pop in a new chain for extra insurance since the CCT has to come out anyways to get the lower chain pad guide. It's gonna be a pretty involved job since you'll have to time things up after replacement, might as well pop in new VCG's, and plugs while you're in there. I'd also note to get new cam bearing cap bolts since they are torque to yield bolts (7ft lbs + 90*), don't want to snap one off in the head during reassembly.

[NuGGet_PuFFer]

FWIW, when I first got my a6(2.7 w/approx 165k miles) I had the place I got it from do the timing belt and one of the CCT pads was cracked, had the whole CCT replaced with aftermarket and haven't had any issues in the 10-15k miles since.

It's like on one hand it's an important part whose failure could be catastrophic, on the other hand that's just way too much dinero.

If I were u, I'd prob replace with aftermarket. Whichever you decide, good luck.

[julex]

FWIW, several years ago when I was rebuilding my engine I simply replaced the pads for the peace of mind. While doing that, I found all the pads being a little worn out with actual chain making tracks in them and one missing significant part of pads altogether. There was no metal to metal contact just yet, but enough for engine to have slight rattle on cold.

Even though top pads might look good, there is a good chance that bottom pads might be cracked/worn out, especially on passenger side where bottom of tensioner is the side that drives the tensioner chain.

You really don't know what you're going to find until you actually open the heads.

[rollerton]

It's the drivers side I wan't sure about as far as TB goes. I remembered the passenger side being no big deal, and..can't remember the drivers side. I think may have got it done without removing the belt, but I think It was a bitch and would've been easier if I had.
I ordered a tensioner 'kit' from Ebay; $265 for tensioners, chains, and all the seals. I'll to the passenger side as soon as it shows up and hope it's the noisy one.

[bpark1210]

I'll to the passenger side as soon as it shows up and hope it's the noisy one.

My research showed bank 1 (passenger) was always the one to go out. I was in the same boat w/ the rattles on that side. You may be able to squeeze the CCT out on the passenger side if you loosen the cam caps and lift the cams to make just enough clearance for the chain to come out then the CCT would just pop out. I'd like to see what you find under the valve covers as I couldn't get mine off due to a fuel hose that disentegrated on me. That reminds me I better replace that hose soon before I develop a fuel leak. And just to make sure you did order the correct CCT for your passenger side. The driver and passenger side look similar but work in opposite ways if installed on the wrong bank. One pushes up and the other pushes down based on the chain rotation.

[rollerton]

Yeah, passenger side no biggie..just don't feel like messing with timing belt at the moment. It was done last summer. But boy is it LOUD in cold start. Shit.
Hope it makes it a few more days!
I bought both, because what the heck. HOPE it's the passenger side for now.
It's definitely a budget S6 project, but it's seriously cleaning up nicely. It was VERY well taken care of for 200k miles. I've seen many with half the miles in way worse shape.
Here's what you get for $265 ebay style.

[bpark1210]

$265 for BOTH sides! WHHHHHHAAAAAAAHHT! I thought you were paying $265 for one side w/ the all the gaskets/chains, etc but for both sides is just insane.

[rollerton]

$265 for BOTH sides! WHHHHHHAAAAAAAHHT! I thought you were paying $265 for one side w/ the all the gaskets/chains, etc but for both sides is just insane.

Ezzzaktly...and even more ezaktly when I looked closer and saw that ECS sells these ezzakt same tensioners alone for $300. Each. I mean, V8 tensioner seals and VC gaskets run you $110.
Chains are $35 each.
That makes the tensioners $50 each. For that price I'm okay if I get a few miles out of them as long as they don't destruct the engine.

[julex]

as long as they don't destruct the engine.

And that's where the catch is. My hard learned rule of thumb is: anything that can grenade engine directly (timing stuff, internals) must always be either OE Audi or at least well proven upgrade (like IE rods).

[8520]

And that's where the catch is. My hard learned rule of thumb is: anything that can grenade engine directly (timing stuff, internals) must always be either OE Audi or at least well proven upgrade (like IE rods).

Or flywheels........

[julex]

Or flywheels........

touche

[BasicA6]

I am in the market for this as well!

[rollerton]

So, this stuff showed up. I have to say...it does NOT look bad. Honestly, the quality...looks...great? Other then a tiny bit of rough casting on a couple edges I really don't see a problem with these. Especially for the price.
Gaskets, chains and all...look good to me. Considering the alternative is $1500 probably. I'll probably do the passenger side this weekend..hope they work as well as they look..actually. Comparing these to OEM and aftermarket pics on ECS's site, they are identical in every was, except the branding.
The solenoids are the exact same as on OEM, same markings.

[glennda5id]

Some thoughts...

Since a failed tensioner shouldn't cause valve damage (atleast I don't think they can, assuming it doesn't explode!), I think the only downside is the headache of doing the job again if one of them fails.

I am currently replacing valve cover gaskets that I installed 2.5 years ago (~12k miles) which have started leaking. They are hard as a rock! I don't think its worth the time to use cheap valve cover gaskets. 12k miles, and the car is not driven hard or anything. I am putting in some Victor Reiz. Hopefully these do better. I am also coating them with HiTach gasket spray.

[bpark1210]

Those look gooood. I'm gonna have to pick up a set for "just in case".

I can't imagine oil temps effecting the casting on the CCT even with inferior material, if ECS sells the same I don't see how they could sell a product that would fail. I'd def opt for a OE supplier chain though for extra insurance.

[V1nny]

here is what I got:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261903969348
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Left-Cam-Cam...-/262206256964
both sides for under $200 Looking for someone in VA/DC area who could install them for me, also got 2.8 camshafts:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271864461229
Everyone tells me timing belt needs to come off, and asks for over 1K in labor.

[rollerton]

Everyone tells me timing belt needs to come off, and asks for over 1K in labor.

i think it's possinle to work around the timing belt, and labor-wise on a 2.7 it would be worth trying. passenger side doesn't look tough, but the drivers side...i dont know. kind of think it would be more work than its worth on that side. If you could even manage it. I dont see a way to get the chain off that side with the belt on.

[V1nny]

would this help?
https://youtu.be/KvAABeSflMA

[rollerton]

would this help?
https://youtu.be/KvAABeSflMA

It doesn't hurt. But I didn't see him do the drivers side. If it is possible to do without pulling the cam up you could not replace the chain either way. Unless it has a master link..which I don't think it does.

[JTown77]

If you've gone this far removing the cams is not that much more work.

[86franklin]

Some thoughts...

Since a failed tensioner shouldn't cause valve damage (atleast I don't think they can, assuming it doesn't explode!), I think the only downside is the headache of doing the job again if one of them fails.

I am currently replacing valve cover gaskets that I installed 2.5 years ago (~12k miles) which have started leaking. They are hard as a rock! I don't think its worth the time to use cheap valve cover gaskets. 12k miles, and the car is not driven hard or anything. I am putting in some Victor Reiz. Hopefully these do better. I am also coating them with HiTach gasket spray.

If the pad breaks and comes off it will jump sprocket teeth and bend valves. Only the middle intake valves though.

Also pulling the intake cam on both sides make it a lot easier to get the cct out.
Sent from my Nexus 6

[rollerton]

If you've gone this far removing the cams is not that much more work.

This is TRUE! Until you reach the level of motivation I have reached. It's not that much more work...but..it's a little more work.
Technically I guess I could simply tilt the rad support forward, take off serp belt, timing covers..I don't have a tool for the fan. If it wasn't for the fan I'd only complain a little bit...

[glennda5id]

This is TRUE! Until you reach the level of motivation I have reached. It's not that much more work...but..it's a little more work.
Technically I guess I could simply tilt the rad support forward, take off serp belt, timing covers..I don't have a tool for the fan. If it wasn't for the fan I'd only complain a little bit...

You can get a fan tool on amazon for $10...just a little bit more!

[rollerton]

This is so much fun. I love it sexy time.
Technically I think the drivers side could be done without taking the timing belt loose. But I think it would take 3X longer. I removed both valve covers and poked around and found that after sitting for about a half hour I could see the passenger side chain had some slack underneath the tensioner. But the tensioner came out intact, nothing obviously wrong with it.
Whatever.






Reinstalled. I made paint marks on the chain, for chain-to-cam alignment and I also marked on the cams themselves, relative to the caps; so that no matter how many links I ended up with during reassembly I could be 100% sure the cams ended up in the exact same position as they were. You can see the marks in this pic here:

Spun the engine over by hand several times, everything lines up as close to exact as I can make it. Turning the engine causes the tensoner (both side at various points in rotation) to pup up and down. I think I've read about this before; but I can't say why it is. But since I don't have an explanation for it and I haven't touched bank 2 yet, I assume it's because I'm turning the engine backwards or something.

[JTown77]

Oil pump pressure is the cause for the in/out I believe.

[julex]

it goes in and out simply because intake cam (driven by chain) first gives the chain resistance (this is the "in" part) and then once you pass top of lobes, the intake cam springs ahead pushed by lifters essentially allowing the chain to slack and tensioner to extend (the "out" part). Should the tensioner have any oil pressure in it, the "in" part would not happen and thus there would be no in and out... or what she said

[strawmanmark]

A few months back I did the passenger side of my 03 4.2, with almost 250K miles on it. No problem. Now I am into the driver's side and find that I cannot get the cam or the tensioner out, the tin cover is in the way. And, the sprocket is in the way of the bolt to take the cover loose from the other cam cap. Has anyone been able to do this without putting it into the service position (taking off the front end)?
Thanks
Mark

[rollerton]

Has anyone been able to do this without putting it into the service position (taking off the front end)?
Thanks
Mark

Bad news Mark...pretty much have to take the timing belt off to do the drivers side. As you see there are a few hurdles on that bank. I can imagine someone who was determined enough might figure out a way to do it, but from what I see it would take twice as long and be a yuge hassle. YUGE!
Like I said before, from now on when I timing belt jobs I'm just going to replace the pads on the drivers side tensioner at minimum; if not replace it outright. At that point It's a little extra labor / cost to do something you can nearly guarantee will need to get done anyway.