Stage 1 0-60mph quicker than Stage 2?

[Rocketsauce16]

It's a long story, but basically I went back to GIAC to go Stage 2 with miscommunication I ended up with Stage 1. Not knowing I launched and logged a 3.74 and 3.64 0-60 on my P3 on a questionable road surface. Didn't really lose traction either. That was quicker than the quickest run I had with my APR software, 3.77 on a perfect road.

I logged later in the week and kinda figured I was bleeding boost. I was and had some disgusting logs. Found out it was Stage 1 and is getting fixed as I type this.

I just started thinking about it and maybe there is something to it. This could be the thing to get some of these fast guys to run an 11 flat or 10.9 even on stock blower. Bleeding boost in 1st gear to keep traction and then laying on the power. Idk maybe it's .02 that I should keep to myself, but thought it was worth sharing.


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[fitzydude]

I mentioned previously that Revo stage 1 with a pulley had better throttle response and had more torque than Revo Stage 2 with a pulley. I hypothesized that the stage 2 tune may be bleeding boost for better drivability down low. I feel like my Revo stage 1 tune would have beat the stage 2 tune to 60 with both running an upgraded pulley. The top end is better on the stage 2 tune, but the low end felt much better on the stage 1.

Your problem could just be that GIAC is just a better tuner or the difference in road/conditions. What version of APR software were you running? V2 was turrible

[rwtzero]

Is there anyone running Stage 1 tune on a pulley? I'd love to see/hear about this scenario.

[Rocketsauce16]

Your problem could just be that GIAC is just a better tuner or the difference in road/conditions. What version of APR software were you running? V2 was turrible

V3, I ran an 11.84 on 93 bc I didn't have program switching. Which is part of the reason for the switch back to GIAC and that APR has 3 dealers that are all 1hr away and GIAC is 15min. I was happy with APR but my tuner thinks I'll be faster GIAC and program switching is a plus.


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[Rocketsauce16]

Is there anyone running Stage 1 tune on a pulley? I'd love to see/hear about this scenario.

You need Stage 2 for the third gear push at the end which is where I noticed it was missing something. I have JB4 for my 135, which gave me thought if they could bleed boost by gear that can change things but if there is the timing issues I was seeing that could be bad.

I'll post the logs later.


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[bhvrdr]

What you are seeing is a unique situation and it also illustrates differences in tuning styles that can be present.


You compared GIAC Stage 1 with pulley to APR stage 2 with a pulley.

The first thing that was brought up is what version of APR stage 2 were you running? This is important to know because there was plenty of power left on the table with early revisions, particularly with the 2014+ model years.


Putting aside that, the second thing to note is that GIAC has historically tended to throw requested timing and boost through the roof and then rely on OEM safeties to bring the car back to where it can perform. I've seen that in their files going back 10 years and I'm not saying its a bad thing either. Its just a style. What you will see happen though when you throw your boost targets to crazy high unachievable amounts is that your car can now benefit from a pulley even at stage 1 level of tune. You may notice their stage 2 cars can benefit from dual pulleys too even though they werent specifically tuned for it. This is because their boost targets were much higher than the car could make.


APR tends to ride their boost targets just over what the car can make for boost. So, technically, they can make just as much boost as GIAC at the non pulley stage 1 level on their stage 1 software tune but when you add a pulley to their stage 1 tune you will eventually bleed boost because your actual boost numbers are surpassing the requested boost.


This doesnt even take into account timing. Most stage 1 tunes do request more timing than stage 2 tunes. So if you had a GIAC stage 1 tune that was requesting a lot of timing and also had high enough boost targets that the bypass was staying closed you could have a very fast program assuming you could put high enough quality fuel in the tank to stop any over correcting knock retard. On crappy fuel, it could be a recipe for disaster or basically like running a race program on pump fuel.


The bottom line, though, would be to use the proper tune for your conditions. Do logging, see what your fuel and conditions support and use the program that best fits it.

[Rocketsauce16]

I was running the latest software from APR and is actually why I went Stage 2, but I was still running the GIAC TCU tune bc I didn't have any issues with it, like others were having with APRs on the B8.5.

I did out run a GIAC stage 2 car both on 93 which I feel is APR's strong point and GIAC is 100 oct. No complaints, just to go faster, I needed program switching.

I agree with most of what you said and interesting points that I didn't know. Thanks for your insight!



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[Schadenfreude]

It's a long story, but basically I went back to GIAC to go Stage 2 with miscommunication I ended up with Stage 1. Not knowing I launched and logged a 3.74 and 3.64 0-60 on my P3 on a questionable road surface. Didn't really lose traction either. That was quicker than the quickest run I had with my APR software, 3.77 on a perfect road.

I logged later in the week and kinda figured I was bleeding boost. I was and had some disgusting logs. Found out it was Stage 1 and is getting fixed as I type this.

I just started thinking about it and maybe there is something to it. This could be the thing to get some of these fast guys to run an 11 flat or 10.9 even on stock blower. Bleeding boost in 1st gear to keep traction and then laying on the power. Idk maybe it's .02 that I should keep to myself, but thought it was worth sharing.


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Things to keep in mind are the standard error of measurement, differences in weather conditions and changes in your technique. All of those things could easily cause the differences in time that you observed. Depending on the error of measurement your times may actually all be considered the same (if for example the range was + or - 0.1 seconds).

[Rocketsauce16]

Things to keep in mind are the standard error of measurement, differences in weather conditions and changes in your technique. All of those things could easily cause the differences in time that you observed. Depending on the error of measurement your times may actually all be considered the same (if for example the range was + or - 0.1 seconds).

The 3.77 was on the night I ran at the track the DA was -600 and very ideal conditions. The 3.64 it was 75 degrees humid and on a crappy road in my neighborhood. That eliminated better conditions, it wasn't a fluke. For me that crappy neighborhood road I will break traction, hop, and slide, so from what I felt the biggest thing was traction.


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[Schadenfreude]

The 3.77 was on the night I ran at the track the DA was -600 and very ideal conditions. The 3.64 it was 75 degrees humid and on a crappy road in my neighborhood. That eliminated better conditions, it wasn't a fluke. For me that crappy neighborhood road I will break traction, hop, and slide, so from what I felt the biggest thing was traction.


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I didn't say it was a fluke. What I'm saying is 0.1 seconds in a 3.64 span accounts for 2.7%. If your technique is so consistent across varying conditions that you can produce results with less than that much change between runs then you should probably be driving F1 or flying experimental military aircraft. I'll bet launch control has more than 2.7% variation. Heat in the clutch packs probably accounts for more than 2.7% change. 1/10th of a second sounds like a lot but when you look at how little % change it really is, you can see how easily 2.7% can be gained or lost. I weigh myself in the morning and at the end of the day I can see more than 2lbs change based on activity level. Seems like a lot but at 200lbs it is a 1% change. Not statistically significant by a long shot.

[Rocketsauce16]

Sorry I said that wrong, I don't think I'm wrong with what the previous ppl said and I launched the APR multiple times and yes bc of traction it causes short shifts and other strange things tend to happen. I only launched stage 1 a few times and all my times were better than the APR Stage 2. Not knocking APR I put the fastest 93 oct 1/4 time with them, but I think there is something about Stage 1 and 2 vs launching. There is something here I just don't know if there is ability to bleed boost by gear.

Being that I was Stage 1 what seems so long ago. I forgot the feeling of going all the way through first gear to second gear fluidly. Maybe there is a way to pedal it, but it's given me something to play with..


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[pdqgp]

Sorry I said that wrong, I don't think I'm wrong with what the previous ppl said and I launched the APR multiple times and yes bc of traction it causes short shifts and other strange things tend to happen. I only launched stage 1 a few times and all my times were better than the APR Stage 2. Not knocking APR I put the fastest 93 oct 1/4 time with them, but I think there is something about Stage 1 and 2 vs launching. There is something here I just don't know if there is ability to bleed boost by gear.

Being that I was Stage 1 what seems so long ago. I forgot the feeling of going all the way through first gear to second gear fluidly. Maybe there is a way to pedal it, but it's given me something to play with..

I was APR Stage 1 with DSG Tune before I moved to Stage 2. Stage 2 immediately proved stronger from a launch as my car even today in the 50's will spin all four wheels off the line and take off. I noticed it upon the test drive from when Stage 2 was applied as I didn't turn off TC and Stage 2 spins so bad if I don't the car will cut power and bog badly. I've embarrassed myself a few times on the street due to that. Never did that with Stage 1.

The only time I encounter any type of "short" shift concern or issue is if I'm in manual mode and miss the 1->2 mark. I currently have mine set to "auto shift" - dumb I know, but I will change it later when I get a chance to visit my tuner shop again.

Track day is coming up late April. Can't wait!

[TomPaul10]

I was APR Stage 1 with DSG Tune before I moved to Stage 2. Stage 2 immediately proved stronger from a launch as my car even today in the 50's will spin all four wheels off the line and take off. I noticed it upon the test drive from when Stage 2 was applied as I didn't turn off TC and Stage 2 spins so bad if I don't the car will cut power and bog badly. I've embarrassed myself a few times on the street due to that. Never did that with Stage 1.

The only time I encounter any type of "short" shift concern or issue is if I'm in manual mode and miss the 1->2 mark. I currently have mine set to "auto shift" - dumb I know, but I will change it later when I get a chance to visit my tuner shop again.

Track day is coming up late April. Can't wait!

off topic i apologize, but when you say "auto shift" is that some type of mode for "manual where if you i guess lets say forget to shift, it will shift for you ? because when I'm in manual mode, i absolutely hate how the car will sometimes shift for me sometimes ( yes when I'm in complete manual mode, pushing over shifter to the right )

[Lamprey]

<snip> I currently have mine set to "auto shift" - dumb I know, but I will change it later when I get a chance to visit my tuner shop again.

Why do you consider that dumb? I can see why people like to have the control, but the auto shift should shift perfectly and not have the chance to bounce off the rev limiter like a full manual shift would. That alone seems like a good reason to have/leave the auto shift.

[Mat@1975]

Why do you consider that dumb? I can see why people like to have the control, but the auto shift should shift perfectly and not have the chance to bounce off the rev limiter like a full manual shift would. That alone seems like a good reason to have/leave the auto shift.

Hello,

On track (not drag race ), before i had my APR TCU tune with auto up-shift disable, i was verry upset by this: when i changed gear a tad bit late, then auto upshift + my change input --> then a dirty short shift... verry anoying...

BR

Mat

[Lamprey]

Hello,

On track (not drag race ), before i had my APR TCU tune with auto up-shift disable, i was verry upset by this: when i changed gear a tad bit late, then auto upshift + my change input --> then a dirty short shift... verry anoying...

BR

Mat

That makes sense.

It would be cool if they offered a switch/toggle between the two modes so you could enable auto shifting for dragging and disable it for tracking (assuming that is even possible). But, considering how long we've been waiting for tune switching...

[Rocketsauce16]

Hello,

On track (not drag race ), before i had my APR TCU tune with auto up-shift disable, i was verry upset by this: when i changed gear a tad bit late, then auto upshift + my change input --> then a dirty short shift... verry anoying...

BR

Mat

I just keep my left hand in position to downshift, but the double shift made me learn my lesson real quick. Idk maybe they can disable it on GIAC, but I would more like launch control lowered, bc for me in my experience it adds a 10th to my 60ft but plan on getting some drag radials. Mainly so I can do the test and tunes on Sunday's. I work most street drag nights. They've let me in with street tires but I catch grief from the other racers and plenty of dirty looks haha!


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[Rocketsauce16]

I was APR Stage 1 with DSG Tune before I moved to Stage 2. Stage 2 immediately proved stronger from a launch as my car even today in the 50's will spin all four wheels off the line and take off. I noticed it upon the test drive from when Stage 2 was applied as I didn't turn off TC and Stage 2 spins so bad if I don't the car will cut power and bog badly. I've embarrassed myself a few times on the street due to that. Never did that with Stage 1.

The only time I encounter any type of "short" shift concern or issue is if I'm in manual mode and miss the 1->2 mark. I currently have mine set to "auto shift" - dumb I know, but I will change it later when I get a chance to visit my tuner shop again.

Track day is coming up late April. Can't wait!

I had a friend that has the TCU tune on his b8 s4 and golf r.. Always complaining about it; the delayed rev limiter bouncing shift in 2-3 and the 1st gear short shift. Lowering his launch control helped and they did figure out the other issues, but definitely a process. My car has always been quicker but I have lighter wheels, rotors, and spare removed. I start quicker and pull about a car length or so on the top end.


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