Any reason why e85 isn't available for B8 A4? But is available for mk6 and b8.5?

[B8Nate]

As the title states pretty much.

I've had good results from e85 on previous owned cars. Around here in Arkansas we get very good quality e85 I know it's iffy in some other places. But here me and some friends have ran tests on it and it shows up great! Also great numbers produced on the dynos when running e85 as opposed to 93. I run 93 in my car as I am k04 and APR tuned. But I ran e85 on my 370z and my 5.0 Mustang(which were not from the factory to handle e85)
So is there any reason why the b8 a4 can't handle/won't run e85? I've researched on here and found that the b8.5 can handle it without tuning, straight from the factory. Which is awesome, my friend drives a GIAC tuned Volkswagen MK6 GTi on e85. I just don't get it. Apparently GIAC have a tune for e85 but I've not heard anything about it for Audi, but same motor?!?!
http://www.audiboost.com/content.php...x-fuel-options
^ linked here is what tune he is running. So same motor, same fuel lines, etc .... Why can't I run e85 in my a4?

My biggest guesses would be one of two things,
1- either the e85 would eat through the fuel lines and seals of the car since it isn't meant to run e85 maybe they're diff than the mk6 and b8.5 a4 (not likely, but plausible) or
2- with how protective Audi is with their software, I don't think APR will try it, Unless it gets enough feedback from consumers to make it worth their while to even try it. I'd switch to GIAC to try it but it shows it's only for the VW 2.0 tfsi motor which boggles my mind bc it's the same exact motor in our cars??!?!?!?!

Now with that all being said, the new b8.5 a4 has the same 2.0tfsi motor? If so, then how come they can run e85 from the factory. Also not only can it run it right from the factory but APR has a tune for them to run e85 making over 300 whp. Then we have the mk5, same 2.0 tfsi motor, it has a tune via GIAC for e85... Just doesn't seem fair.. am I the only one that wonders that? Where's the APR b8 a4 or GIAC 2.0tfsi stage 2 tune for b8 a4's for e85.....

I would love to see what my k04, intake, HFC, catback, etc could do with e85 as I ran it on both of my previous cars with great results.... Someone help me or at least tell me "bro it can't be done, never will be done" so I can at least get some sleep. Every time I think of it, it personally just ticks me off. I am happy with my car. But it's not fair. The b8.5 with the same motor and the mk6 with the same motor has e85 tunes and we don't

[van462]

A big part of flex fuel capability is the sensor and ECU. It has to be able to adjust the fuel maps and ignition timing based on any gas to ethanol ratio it may encounter. The B8.5 also has a metal intake manifold with an extra injector to supplement the extra fueling 85% ethanol requires. The link hows them using a 91 octane with 40% E85 mix. Likely this is done to gain the octane advantage of ethanol to run more timing but enough gas to meet the fueling limitations and cold start issues. The easier way get some of these similar results is to use water/meth injection. You get the octane boost and cylinder cooling capacity. If tuned for more advanced timing some power gains can be had.

Largest reason will be there is a relatively small modding community for a 4000lbs family sedan when much lighter options exist. Our motor layout being different that the sideways mount means we also lose out on that R&D and parts compatibility. Maestro may be able to provide the capability to tune infinite variables. You just don't hear people talk about it anything other than the premade maps for it. The 350Z community had a free map downloads from all sorts of users with various N/A,turbo and supercharged configurations.

[ToddBrunswick]

To be clear, not all b8.5 can run e85. Manual transmission b8.5 still has the plastic intake manifold.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[B8Nate]

A big part of flex fuel capability is the sensor and ECU. It has to be able to adjust the fuel maps and ignition timing based on any gas to ethanol ratio it may encounter. The B8.5 also has a metal intake manifold with an extra injector to supplement the extra fueling 85% ethanol requires. The link hows them using a 91 octane with 40% E85 mix. Likely this is done to gain the octane advantage of ethanol to run more timing but enough gas to meet the fueling limitations and cold start issues. The easier way get some of these similar results is to use water/meth injection. You get the octane boost and cylinder cooling capacity. If tuned for more advanced timing some power gains can be had.

Largest reason will be there is a relatively small modding community for a 4000lbs family sedan when much lighter options exist. Our motor layout being different that the sideways mount means we also lose out on that R&D and parts compatibility. Maestro may be able to provide the capability to tune infinite variables. You just don't hear people talk about it anything other than the premade maps for it. The 350Z community had a free map downloads from all sorts of users with various N/A,turbo and supercharged configurations.

makes sense I just wanted someone to shed some light on it, I just wasn't sure of the differences of the b8.5 vs b8 i.e the extra injector and metal intake manifold. I've never popped the hood of a 8.5 so I wouldn't know. Thanks for shedding some light on that. As far as the 40% e85 blend with 60% 91 octane I saw that, but just figured well not fully e85 I get, I even diluted the e85 in my 370 by leaving about 10% 93 octane in my tank and filling the rest with e85. I just figured if GIAC had a tune for mk6 2.0tfsi motor (for sure the same motor as ours, plastic intake manifold, etc) then maybe they would offer one for the b8 a4. guess I'm SOL then, trying to make my daddy ride fast, gotta get the kids to soccer practice before the wife has my throat... No I'm 22 and don't have kids. But I was interested in running e85 in most places it is cheaper (even though I know it does use more of it to compensate) it still a clean fuel and I never had anything bad to say about it when I ran it. I guess I'd just like the OPTION to run it if I wanted, but I guess I'm wishing for too much!! Makes sense though, I'd rather stick with my k04, 93 tuned option and at least be safe I guess! Next time I'll get a S or RS model. For now, the k04 and 93 is working just fine for a little 4 cyl 2.0 motor, plenty quick and gotta love the awd option of audi as opposed to VW. Anyways thanks for helping me understand it all.

[B8Nate]

To be clear, not all b8.5 can run e85. Manual transmission b8.5 still has the plastic intake manifold.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hmm weird...

[Party_Marty]

Hmm weird...

Yea I found out about this....I love my 6spd and wouldn't trade it for an auto!!! But I wouldn't mind having that metal intake manifold...

[BMWManiac]

Yea I found out about this....I love my 6spd and wouldn't trade it for an auto!!! But I wouldn't mind having that metal intake manifold...

The intake manifold can't be the only difference for E85? Or is that the reason why 6 speed didn't get it? Wouldn't trade mine either and there are hardly any e85 around here anyways

[MrLaFave]

Wait what? I can put e85 in my '13 A4? I was strictly told nothing but 93. Can someone explain to me the benefit other than being cheaper per gal to using e85 over 93? Also as far as I've read, switching grades will cause a car to burn more gas so the price difference seems like it's probably a wash.

[energy_legs]

The important thing to realize here is that the Mk6 GTI has the same engine family (EA888), but they are not the same engine code, they do not share the same ECU revision, and they have different fueling systems. All this means that the effort to create a flex fuel setup for the B8 is almost identical to the effort to create it for the B8, as VAN462 said earlier, this modding community is much smaller. It can be done if there are enough of us willing to demand it and pay for it.

[IHave2Turbos]

e85 is generally around 100-105 octane so you are getting the extra power from that. basically it is like running a "race gas" 104 octane tune for "regular" gas but at a cheaper price point. Likely why only the automatics get it, the 6sp manual would probably encounter problems with the extra tq.

[adamazing]

Wait what? I can put e85 in my '13 A4? I was strictly told nothing but 93. Can someone explain to me the benefit other than being cheaper per gal to using e85 over 93? Also as far as I've read, switching grades will cause a car to burn more gas so the price difference seems like it's probably a wash.

B8.5 8-Speed Tiptronics are FlexFuel capable from the factory. They have upgraded intake manifolds with a 5th injector that's cycled for cold starts. That's why the intake is metal to begin with, because the plastic manifold won't hold up well to e85 over the life of that car. Hell, it won't even hold up to itself for 50k miles for some folks. The Flexfuel cars have fuel lines, seals, and larger CFM injectors designed to support e85. On top of that, the ECU is coded from the factory to read, interpret, and adjust for all varying levels of blended e85 and/or gasoline in your tank for any timing pull+advance.

There is zero benefit to running e85 in stock, factory form. E85 tends to be significantly cheaper than regular gas but there is less energy comparitively, so your car needs to use more of it to get that same effect - so MPG's go down considerably.

If you have a tune to compensate for e85, then you've hit the jackpot. E85 is roughly equivalent to 105 octane. This allows your tune to run higher amounts of boost without knock. And that is the magic of the FlexFuel ECU - in that it can detect and blend any mix of e85 and gas (up to 100% e85) and adjust the tune levels automatically.


As for why Audi only made this functionality available in B8.5 Tiptronics... who knows. You'd have to get that answer form someone at AoA or Germany.

[shaunm82]

Wait what? I can put e85 in my '13 A4? I was strictly told nothing but 93. Can someone explain to me the benefit other than being cheaper per gal to using e85 over 93? Also as far as I've read, switching grades will cause a car to burn more gas so the price difference seems like it's probably a wash.

Check your gas cap door. That'll tell you for sure if you can run e85. Generally the facelift models + AT are able to run it from the factory.

[BMWManiac]

And I would expect the opposite with concerns to automatics vs manuals. At least in the bmw world, autos cant hold the same power levels as manulas

[BVB_Hawk]

Check your gas cap door. That'll tell you for sure if you can run e85. Generally the facelift models + AT are able to run it from the factory.

Does the label on the gas cap door specifically call out the fact that it's E85 capable? Because my '13 A4 8sp Tip only shows unleaded, min 91 oct, nothing about E85.

[adamazing]

Does the label on the gas cap door specifically call out the fact that it's E85 capable? Because my '13 A4 8sp Tip only shows unleaded, min 91 oct, nothing about E85.

It would be ironic to have a FlexFuel optioned car, live in the middle of Iowa, and not be able to use corn. Lol

[B8Nate]

And I would expect the opposite with concerns to automatics vs manuals. At least in the bmw world, autos cant hold the same power levels as manulas

well, honestly I'm not 100% sure on the A4 as I haven't done a whole lot of modding to the engine myself. The previous owner had the k04 installed and tuned, I was simply provided with receipts, invoices and a dyno sheet lol but if I had to guess just like the dsg mk6 vs the manual mk6, the dsg auto can handle more power when tuned than the manual can bc it cannot be tuned for obvious reasons. Now my car doesn't have dsg I know this but the stronic is still a smart trans system and when I had my 370z I had an auto 7 speed bc I was told from Nissan themselves that it was faster 1/4 mile times when compared to the 6 speed manual. (go ahead look it up, nothing crazy but it is faster) lol crazy to think, but with the tuning capabilities nowadays with autos they're starting to handle more power and be faster than manuals and completely eliminate driver error, now I had a manual 5.0 and boy I wouldn't of had it any other way, so don't get me wrong I love a manual. But very impressed with some autos holding more power and sometimes being slightly quicker than a manual.

B8.5 8-Speed Tiptronics are FlexFuel capable from the factory. They have upgraded intake manifolds with a 5th injector that's cycled for cold starts. That's why the intake is metal to begin with, because the plastic manifold won't hold up well to e85 over the life of that car. Hell, it won't even hold up to itself for 50k miles for some folks. The Flexfuel cars have fuel lines, seals, and larger CFM injectors designed to support e85. On top of that, the ECU is coded from the factory to read, interpret, and adjust for all varying levels of blended e85 and/or gasoline in your tank for any timing pull+advance.

There is zero benefit to running e85 in stock, factory form. E85 tends to be significantly cheaper than regular gas but there is less energy comparitively, so your car needs to use more of it to get that same effect - so MPG's go down considerably.

If you have a tune to compensate for e85, then you've hit the jackpot. E85 is roughly equivalent to 105 octane. This allows your tune to run higher amounts of boost without knock. And that is the magic of the FlexFuel ECU - in that it can detect and blend any mix of e85 and gas (up to 100% e85) and adjust the tune levels automatically.


As for why Audi only made this functionality available in B8.5 Tiptronics... who knows. You'd have to get that answer form someone at AoA or Germany.

That was my main concern, I was sure it was something to do with the plastic manifold, that should of been reason #3 on my original first post. Once I thought about it, I was like I bet it's because it would eventually start eating through that. Now with that being said again I should of been clear, I was meaning to run it with a 91 or 93 octane mix 60/40 or maybe 50/50 blend to where it wouldn't just be straight e85 as I said before I didn't even run 100% e85 on my 370z or 5.0 and it LOVED the fuel. So yes MPG's are awful with e85 (one of the only downsides) but with it being considerably lower priced it balances out IMO. Now say a tune was available for our cars and ran a e85 mix with 93 I feel like we would see great numbers on our cars because like stated above, yes basically 104-105 octane for less than $2 here, it's just the smart idea. That's why I was hoping someone like APR would offer one as an extra map so you could run it only when you wanted and be able to "switch" maps and go back to normal 93. It'd be nice to get the extra 15-30hp seen in boosted cars. I mean I made 14hp in my NA 370z with it and 19hp in my 5.0 on it my friends mk6 made right under 30hp more when on e85 as compared to 93. Which is amazing. Boosted cars love e85 for how clean it burns, cool it burns and the high octane! To me it would just make sense to run it, and if you were going to run it all the time and weren't able to map switch from an e85 tune to a 93 tune like with apr then maybe upgrade to the metal intake or something. But seems like it'll prob never be done. With all that being said, I'm perfectly happy with my 93 tune and k04 setup. Just thought it'd be a little more fun with e85 k04 setup.

e85 is generally around 100-105 octane so you are getting the extra power from that. basically it is like running a "race gas" 104 octane tune for "regular" gas but at a cheaper price point. Likely why only the automatics get it, the 6sp manual would probably encounter problems with the extra tq.

Exactly!

The important thing to realize here is that the Mk6 GTI has the same engine family (EA888), but they are not the same engine code, they do not share the same ECU revision, and they have different fueling systems. All this means that the effort to create a flex fuel setup for the B8 is almost identical to the effort to create it for the B8, as VAN462 said earlier, this modding community is much smaller. It can be done if there are enough of us willing to demand it and pay for it.

well looks like it'll never be done simply b/c we're not that big of a modding community and even smaller amount doesn't really care and is happy with 91/93 tunes. It's a cool idea and if it ever gets brought up or made. I'll be on board!! 93 + k04 = amazing .... I could only imagine what k04 + e85 would be like

Yea I found out about this....I love my 6spd and wouldn't trade it for an auto!!! But I wouldn't mind having that metal intake manifold...

metal intake FTW lol

[adamazing]

That was my main concern, I was sure it was something to do with the plastic manifold, that should of been reason #3 on my original first post. Once I thought about it, I was like I bet it's because it would eventually start eating through that. Now with that being said again I should of been clear, I was meaning to run it with a 91 or 93 octane mix 60/40 or maybe 50/50 blend to where it wouldn't just be straight e85 as I said before I didn't even run 100% e85 on my 370z or 5.0 and it LOVED the fuel. So yes MPG's are awful with e85 (one of the only downsides) but with it being considerably lower priced it balances out IMO. Now say a tune was available for our cars and ran a e85 mix with 93 I feel like we would see great numbers on our cars because like stated above, yes basically 104-105 octane for less than $2 here, it's just the smart idea. That's why I was hoping someone like APR would offer one as an extra map so you could run it only when you wanted and be able to "switch" maps and go back to normal 93. It'd be nice to get the extra 15-30hp seen in boosted cars. I mean I made 14hp in my NA 370z with it and 19hp in my 5.0 on it my friends mk6 made right under 30hp more when on e85 as compared to 93. Which is amazing. Boosted cars love e85 for how clean it burns, cool it burns and the high octane! To me it would just make sense to run it, and if you were going to run it all the time and weren't able to map switch from an e85 tune to a 93 tune like with apr then maybe upgrade to the metal intake or something. But seems like it'll prob never be done. With all that being said, I'm perfectly happy with my 93 tune and k04 setup. Just thought it'd be a little more fun with e85 k04 setup.

The S4 guys started blending E85 mixes into EPL tunes just recently (about 6 months ago). A lot of them are having great success with it. The long term effect are obviously still unknown but it's do-able. If you have tuning knowledge, you can always create your own tune via Eurodyne Maestro. The main hassle is just constantly guessing or tracking your e85 blend manually with every fill up since the ECU wont do it for you - but it's do-able.

93 + k04 = amazing .... I could only imagine what k04 + e85 would be like

You don't have to imagine, just get a B8.5 Tip

[AllroadCorbin]

B8.5 8-Speed Tiptronics are FlexFuel capable from the factory. They have upgraded intake manifolds with a 5th injector that's cycled for cold starts. That's why the intake is metal to begin with, because the plastic manifold won't hold up well to e85 over the life of that car. Hell, it won't even hold up to itself for 50k miles for some folks. The Flexfuel cars have fuel lines, seals, and larger CFM injectors designed to support e85. On top of that, the ECU is coded from the factory to read, interpret, and adjust for all varying levels of blended e85 and/or gasoline in your tank for any timing pull+advance.

There is zero benefit to running e85 in stock, factory form. E85 tends to be significantly cheaper than regular gas but there is less energy comparitively, so your car needs to use more of it to get that same effect - so MPG's go down considerably.

If you have a tune to compensate for e85, then you've hit the jackpot. E85 is roughly equivalent to 105 octane. This allows your tune to run higher amounts of boost without knock. And that is the magic of the FlexFuel ECU - in that it can detect and blend any mix of e85 and gas (up to 100% e85) and adjust the tune levels automatically.


As for why Audi only made this functionality available in B8.5 Tiptronics... who knows. You'd have to get that answer form someone at AoA or Germany.

For the record E85 creating extra power has very little do with extra boost. In fact it causes the engine to require less boost for the same power output...what an E85 tune does is allow the engine to greatly advance timing. Your max boost pressure should not change much at all when running E85 vs 93. I peak at the same 23.5 psi on E85 as I do 93

[f_399]

If the ECU adapts even on a stock car, are the factory hp/tq rating based off 93 octane?

[Bruce G.]

If the ECU adapts even on a stock car, are the factory hp/tq rating based off 93 octane?

On a stock ECU, the factory hp/tq ratings remain the same no matter if your running E85 or 93 octane. ECU really act as a buffer, keeping power output constance dispite environmental temps, humidity, altitude (to a certain degree), fuel, ect. Really the only difference you experience is a cleaner burn, knock resistence, and 30% worst fuel economy. With a tune, your able to take advantage of the higher octane by advancing the timing, increasing boost or compression, or a little bit of both.

You also have to remember that back when the B8 came out, E85 accessibility and the overall infrastructure was just taking off. My dad was using E85 back then when ethanol was less than $2 a gallon and pump gas was over $4, and there was only 1 E85 station in our entire county.

[van462]

Another factor the GTI I think only uses the 2.0tfsi world wide. The A4 has the 1.8, 2.0 gas in 2 power levels, 3.0 supercharged, once the 3.2 plus the 2.0 and 3.0 TDI's.