To Stage 3 or not to Stage 3 - that is the question

[onequick4door]

Baffles me why anyone would consider doing this stage 3? Just go and spend that cash on an M3/M4 or C63 that has been engineered in Germany to perform at those levels, rather than some aftermarket hack job.

Instead of taking over the APR thread I thought I'd start this debate, just because I think it's an interesting topic and one that I pondered for about a year before buying my S3.

I did the math when I bought my car. The new M3 and ATS-V were my other choices. Both cars optioned(not crazy) like I would have wanted were $70K after haggling(tax, tag, title). I picked up my S3 for $48K all in, out the door with my Audi Club discount. I figured $10-12K to modify the car as I want. $4K-$5K - Full stage 2 with all the hardware and softwares. $7K - suspension, brakes, chassis bracing and a set of dedicated track wheels. With that I'll be below the performance numbers of the M and V by a decent amount and I think have a very reliable ride.

Will I ever go stage III, don't know, I think there will be some slightly milder hybrid kits coming out that will get HP/TQ to 400(or super dang close) at the wheels that will be ultra reliable and more budget friendly. That may sway me.

To answer the question about why go full stage 3+ and not just buy something else. Well, as anyone who has raced anything knows, we are all about competition. My weedeater will beat your weedeater any day of the week. In the broader spectrum of performance cars. If you spend $16K(Full stage 3+(built internals and at least the brakes to match) you have a car that will beat just about anything, period. Seriously a 1ft rollout 0-60 which is how the car magazines really do it is 3 seconds. Look at what you would have to spend to get to that level from a factory. Reliability - big question mark? That's where factory designs vs aftermarket designs will always clash.

[selp]

Word of advice.
If you have the mod bug.. as I have had with all of my other cars.. You will want more.
So prepare yourself, and do things right from the beginning.

I haven't seen lots of places that fully build Audi engines (at least here in Az), I come from JDM world, where I built my own engines. So I am sticking to bolt ons and tune. And wait for the RS3 to come out, so I can do bolt ons and tune and make a good 450whp. Now how much is the RS3 compared to the S3 or other high performance machines? I guess well find out.

[onequick4door]

Word of advice.
If you have the mod bug.. as I have had with all of my other cars.. You will want more.
So prepare yourself, and do things right from the beginning.

I haven't seen lots of places that fully build Audi engines (at least here in Az), I come from JDM world, where I built my own engines. So I am sticking to bolt ons and tune. And wait for the RS3 to come out, so I can do bolt ons and tune and make a good 450whp. Now how much is the RS3 compared to the S3 or other high performance machines? I guess well find out.

The S3 - RS3 gap will be between - $12 - $18K more MSRP - that's based off the current S7- RS7 gap as well as the A3-S3/A4-S4 current model price gaps. Plus unless they put an aluminum block in the refresh which i've read is a possibility, I won't buy it.

[XLR8 Craig]

Instead of taking over the APR thread I thought I'd start this debate, just because I think it's an interesting topic and one that I pondered for about a year before buying my S3.

I did the math when I bought my car. The new M3 and ATS-V were my other choices. Both cars optioned(not crazy) like I would have wanted were $70K after haggling(tax, tag, title). I picked up my S3 for $48K all in, out the door with my Audi Club discount. I figured $10-12K to modify the car as I want. $4K-$5K - Full stage 2 with all the hardware and softwares. $7K - suspension, brakes, chassis bracing and a set of dedicated track wheels. With that I'll be below the performance numbers of the M and V by a decent amount and I think have a very reliable ride.

Will I ever go stage III, don't know, I think there will be some slightly milder hybrid kits coming out that will get HP/TQ to 400(or super dang close) at the wheels that will be ultra reliable and more budget friendly. That may sway me.

To answer the question about why go full stage 3+ and not just buy something else. Well, as anyone who has raced anything knows, we are all about competition. My weedeater will beat your weedeater any day of the week. In the broader spectrum of performance cars. If you spend $16K(Full stage 3+(built internals and at least the brakes to match) you have a car that will beat just about anything, period. Seriously a 1ft rollout 0-60 which is how the car magazines really do it is 3 seconds. Look at what you would have to spend to get to that level from a factory. Reliability - big question mark? That's where factory designs vs aftermarket designs will always clash.

If you're anything like me, I always found that I had more fun and ultimately greater satisfaction of building something to how I want it rather than buying something how someone else thinks I want it; you know built not bought... its more fun that way for me. Anyone can go out and buy an M3/4 but it takes some skill set and knowledge to build a car properly. Not saying just going out to buy an m3 is wrong, its just not for me. You may spend the same in the end, maybe a bit less... maybe a bit more. Only you will know. Some people lost the passion because they don't have the time to build a car like that anymore (family, work,) sometimes life takes over and its gone.

[S3Danny]

Anyone considering stage 3 would do the same to an M3 or whatever other car they could buy for the same money, so that's not really an apples to apples comparison. Then you look at all the money you would put into the M3 and say, why not just get a GTR? Then you look at the money you'd put into the GTR and say why not just get a UGR Gallardo? And on and on.

[DarkSideGTI]

My buddy bought the M4.... and then Akra exhaust, and then JB4, and then Akra DP's, etc. IF you have the mod bug it will happen with all cars.

[Blairautomotive]

I have been on both sides of this argument at different times in my life. As a dealer tech with no time to fine tune or deal with reliability issues I was in the "buy the car you want" boat. So I got an S6 and it was a cool car. Now that I own an independent and have more time and space to deal with pushing something to the limit I decided to buy an S3 just because of the stage 3 kit.

I think the choice to go to stage 3 should be approached appropriately. I would budget for major failure otherwise it is just not a responsible decision. It is certainly not something I would even let my customers get in to without having them understand the full cost of the supporting parts etc.

So that being said everyone is different and wants something different from their vehicles and even that can change.

I for one am super excited about the stage 3 kit and I hope one of my units goes unsold for a few weeks so I can install it on my car instead!

[SPB.2127]

Anyone considering stage 3 would do the same to an M3 or whatever other car they could buy for the same money, so that's not really an apples to apples comparison. Then you look at all the money you would put into the M3 and say, why not just get a GTR? Then you look at the money you'd put into the GTR and say why not just get a UGR Gallardo? And on and on.

Hitting the nail on the head with this one. Modders gonna mod and haters gonna hate.

[hipnix]

In before roadrunner_oz shows up to try and ruin this thread too.

[onequick4door]

Anyone considering stage 3 would do the same to an M3 or whatever other car they could buy for the same money, so that's not really an apples to apples comparison. Then you look at all the money you would put into the M3 and say, why not just get a GTR? Then you look at the money you'd put into the GTR and say why not just get a UGR Gallardo? And on and on.

I agree and so the gap(Approx $20K that stays in my pocket) stays the same but probably grows with the M3/ATS-V/GTR/Certainly Gallardo territory in terms of cost of comparable parts.

So you get a good, really quick car for less money. That's how I ended up looking at it, besides the fact that I'm not a fan of the M3 exterrior or interrior and flat out couldn't fit in the V with a helmet on.

[jshwon]

Appreciate this very non-Vortex mature discussion. All make good points. To be able to have an S3 comparable to a supercar with stage 3+ is an amazing thing. I myself can see both sides. For me with the S3 I will be happy with Stage 2/+. Even that power is extremely formidable to most any car on the road. If I have the need for more I will start to save and look into the S/RS7 M3/4 world. I'll probably end up doing simple bolt on's and or tune with every car I own but can certainly be content with that level of power without spending $10-15k in mods where reliability becomes a serious issue. I just don't need that much car at this point in my life.

[phillyquattro]

The S3 - RS3 gap will be between - $12 - $18K more MSRP - that's based off the current S7- RS7 gap as well as the A3-S3/A4-S4 current model price gaps. Plus unless they put an aluminum block in the refresh which i've read is a possibility, I won't buy it.

A better way to look at it is with percentages. The average base RS price difference is 24.25% above the S model (based on the RS5 and RS7). So you're looking at roughly $10k more on top of the base price of a S3. Once you option it out you could easily walk into the $12-18k range you note, but the base could be a bit less than that, especially if Audi wants to be competitive with Benz and BMW.

That being said...I totally agree with what most people here have stated. If you mod cars, you'll mod whatever it is you buy. No stock car is ever good enough, regardless of how much it cost. Whether it's an RS3, GT3, or a P1. There's always room for improvement. ;-)

[markn1689]

if apr- not to stage 3
ticking time bomb, no support. dont do it

[deadbolt]

if apr- not to stage 3
ticking time bomb, no support. dont do it

Sorry Mark but you cant speak from personal experience. You can link all the threads you want but until you personally have had an issue on your own car your points won't come across as creditable. Same as when you try to up sell Unitronic. When I had APR and had questions I always received prompt responses.

I am not considering the Stage 3 upgrade at this time but it does look pretty good. I'm just wondering how they are getting there CHP to WHP numbers. Based on there numbers they are losing about ~10% from powertrain instead of the typical 20% from torsen. I am assuming its cause of the haldex system.

So how to powertrain % calculated on our cars?

[CbutterK]

So... I am THAT guy that sold a perfectly great stage 2+ TT-RS & a stage 1+ S3 and bought the 2016 M3, thinking the 4 door M3 will give me what I loved about the S3 & TT-RS in one car... It did not. Anyway, even with the stage 3+ and supporting Mods, I would have been about $25K under what the M3 cost, to be at the same level of performance as the S3 Stage 3+. I have full bolt on & JB4 on the M3 now(yes, I'm also THAT guy with mod bug too), with supposedly 535+HP, but I bet the S3 stg 3+ will destroy my M3 from the dig to 100mph, and I think it might actually get better lap times on a roadcourse than the M3. I think the biggest difference is that with the AWD, you can actually put all that power down and use it, versus wasting about 200 horses just trying to get traction on the M3. Anyway, I'm not a novice racer, and I've had the S3 & M3 on the same track. The lap times on the S3 was based on Power limitation, and the lap times on the M3 was based on traction limitation. I turned the boost down significantly on 1-3rd gear, just to try to get enough traction out of the corners.

If the stage 3 was available while I still had the S3, I might have kept the S3, as I really thought with more power, the S3 could dominate at the track... But I do love the sharp response and on the edge character of the M3 tho...

[hodrosS42001]

The S3 - RS3 gap will be between - $12 - $18K more MSRP - that's based off the current S7- RS7 gap as well as the A3-S3/A4-S4 current model price gaps. Plus unless they put an aluminum block in the refresh which i've read is a possibility, I won't buy it.

No, the RS3 will not be 18k higher than the S3.. that's flawed logic. Based off the Euro pricing and conversion factors, less VAT it would be around 52-53k base.

[onequick4door]

Cbutterk - no offense on my M comments. Your wheel fitment research on your old S3 saved me a boat load of time and energy.

[CbutterK]

Cbutterk - no offense on my M comments. Your wheel fitment research on your old S3 saved me a boat load of time and energy.

Absolutely no offence taken whatsoever! I love the M, but I have to admit the S3 platform is a much better value proposition. Glad my wheel trial & error helped you. I just picked up a CC R-line and modded that to Stage 2 right away as a quick fix to my VAG addiction, lol. But ultimately I think I'll be back in the new TT-RS whenever it comes out.

[phillyquattro]

No, the RS3 will not be 18k higher than the S3.. that's flawed logic. Based off the Euro pricing and conversion factors, less VAT it would be around 52-53k base.

Throw on possible options like the ceramic brakes or titanium exhaust and you could very easily be looking at $18k higher. The titanium exhaust on the RS7+ is $9k by itself. While there typically aren't a lot of options on RS models, the options they do offer are expensive.

[hodrosS42001]

Throw on possible options like the ceramic brakes or titanium exhaust and you could very easily be looking at $18k higher. The titanium exhaust on the RS7+ is $9k by itself. While there typically aren't a lot of options on RS models, the options they do offer are expensive.

Agreed, I was purely speaking base price.

[2015S3]

Whatever your modding budget is, double it cause that is what you are going to spend. Also the AWD Haldex system in my opinion is still not the best.

I had a full built rotated 2011 STI that I had before the s3. In my opinion that was true AWD and put all 500whp to the ground effortlessly. Can I compare interns of quality and engineering no, but it sure was a blast when it was running!

My next Audi will be the TTRS for sure.

[Blaine]

Whatever your modding budget is, double it cause that is what you are going to spend. Also the AWD Haldex system in my opinion is still not the best.

I had a full built rotated 2011 STI that I had before the s3. In my opinion that was true AWD and put all 500whp to the ground effortlessly. Can I compare interns of quality and engineering no, but it sure was a blast when it was running!

My next Audi will be the TTRS for sure.

The problem with the STI is that engine really is a ticking time bomb at any power level. Reason why I walked from a getting a STI. AWD Haldex isn't the best... but guess what it works on getting these cars down the track... FAST. Anything else... /shrug.

Also you can't compare an AWD Audi with a RWD platform. A RWD platform takes a TON more work and parts to actually PUT THE POWER DOWN. See my signature. Over half my cars were highly modded. Crazy power + RWD = You better be running some BIG SLICKs and a Perfect Suspension Set up or dream on putting anything over 500rwhp down. Best example of the DYNO QUEEN mentality is the GT500 crowd. They have these modded engines at 1000 rwhp they brag about...then most are running STOCK suspension with the STOCK 285 street tires in the rear. They would be lucky to outrun a stock Mustang GT to 60 MPH. Power = CRAP unless you can ACTUALLY USE IT. Thats also the problem with the RWD quoted stock 0-60 and 1/4 miles times... they are done with a PROFESSIONAL driver with PERFECT conditions which the 99.99% of normal people will not be able to replicate. AWD cars are much easier to actually run what they are quoted to run with the average driver especially with a DSG.

I bought the S3 for one goal. 1/4 mile and super quick 0-60 sprints.. you know the ONLY race/action that 99% cars will EVER see. I can give two craps less about the track nor will my car ever see a race track besides a drag strip. Is that what your gonna tell the car that just dusted you at a stop light (in Mexico).. "Well I'd beat you at the track..." If I wanted a track only car I'd get another Viper.

[onequick4door]

I think with the S3 you can have a well rounded athlete in both disciplines in terms of straight line acceleration and track prowess. Unless you starting messing with the camber and aren't squaring up that section width for launches.

That said, I do look forward following the power upgrade to hitting the local 1/8 mile and making the country folk round here scratch their heads in disbelief.

[jshwon]

I think with the S3 you can have a well rounded athlete in both disciplines in terms of straight line acceleration and track prowess. Unless you starting messing with the camber and aren't squaring up that section width for launches.

Agreed. I think the S3 will be far from a pig around the track. I remember watching a Smoking Tire YouTube where the guy drove a APR stage 2 around the track. He mentioned a couple of times liftoff over steer was pretty achievable if you need it.

[13B]

Whatever your modding budget is, double it cause that is what you are going to spend. Also the AWD Haldex system in my opinion is still not the best.

I had a full built rotated 2011 STI that I had before the s3. In my opinion that was true AWD and put all 500whp to the ground effortlessly. Can I compare interns of quality and engineering no, but it sure was a blast when it was running!

My next Audi will be the TTRS for sure.

Does anyone know what the power limitations are of the Haldex clutch pack in the S3? Any experience from your former cars as to wear and tear on those items, or upgrades that address them?

[markn1689]

@deadbolt i had apr on my stage 2+ s4. on my tt225. and my 07 a3 sportback. i was a customer since 1999

blew 2 sets of turbos on the s4. no support, they do not care. so much money wasted at the tuner swapping back and forth to stock

APR is shady AF

[S3Danny]

@deadbolt i had apr on my stage 2+ s4. on my tt225. and my 07 a3 sportback. i was a customer since 1999

blew 2 sets of turbos on the s4. no support, they do not care. so much money wasted at the tuner swapping back and forth to stock

APR is shady AF

You blew two sets of turbos on a car that is known for eating turbos even while stock, and you blame the tuner? You do realize that there's really nothing in regards to tuning that would cause a turbo to come apart, other than the additional strain being placed on it by you making the decision to tune the car for more power in the first place, right? You might consider taking a step back and really thinking about who's fault it was that your turbos came apart due to an aftermarket, uprated tune being on the car (hint: a mirror might help you find the answer).

[deadbolt]

@deadbolt i had apr on my stage 2+ s4. on my tt225. and my 07 a3 sportback. i was a customer since 1999

blew 2 sets of turbos on the s4. no support, they do not care. so much money wasted at the tuner swapping back and forth to stock

APR is shady AF

I don't understand what APR is suppose to do for you if your turbo blew. Did you find any concrete proof that APR's tune was the cause of your blown turbo? What support are they suppose to offer you? Pay for your repairs? You know the inherent risk when you start tuning and modding your car.

[onequick4door]

Agreed. I think the S3 will be far from a pig around the track. I remember watching a Smoking Tire YouTube where the guy drove a APR stage 2 around the track. He mentioned a couple of times liftoff over steer was pretty achievable if you need it.

Off-topic but I can tell you right now it's very far from being a pig on a road course. I took mine bone stock a week after the 1K mileage break-in(changed the oil and filter of course). I got the unique experience of a day of rain and a day of Sun. Generally I wouldn't run in the rain, but had to see what she would do and holy crap I was impressed. I have almost 20 years experience on track, just not in AWD and turbo cars. The amount of grip with the Haldex with the conti's was pretty amazing. I smoked everything. Rain and AWD is a great equalizer. Now the next day in the dry, just can't hang with the new Z06, tracked prepped R8's, GT3's, etc... . But I thought the car was very neutral and easy to drive at the limit. Can't trail brake, but lift off oversteer was easily achievable. Unless you just flat overcooked an entry the car didn't exhibit much push. That's why I went with the parts I did(see my build thread) and can't wait till April for my next event.

The car your referring to from the "Smoking Tire" is the APR Stage 2 S3, which I don't believe had an upgraded rear swaybar. I think he mentioned the car had springs brakes, light weight wheels and cup tires in the video, but point is, the rear sway is the key to get more rotation at least that's my conclusion thus far.

[jshwon]

Off-topic but I can tell you right now it's very far from being a pig on a road course. I took mine bone stock a week after the 1K mileage break-in(changed the oil and filter of course). I got the unique experience of a day of rain and a day of Sun. Generally I wouldn't run in the rain, but had to see what she would do and holy crap I was impressed. I have almost 20 years experience on track, just not in AWD and turbo cars. The amount of grip with the Haldex with the conti's was pretty amazing. I smoked everything. Rain and AWD is a great equalizer. Now the next day in the dry, just can't hang with the new Z06, tracked prepped R8's, GT3's, etc... . But I thought the car was very neutral and easy to drive at the limit. Can't trail brake, but lift off oversteer was easily achievable. Unless you just flat overcooked an entry the car didn't exhibit much push. That's why I went with the parts I did(see my build thread) and can't wait till April for my next event.

The car your referring to from the "Smoking Tire" is the APR Stage 2 S3, which I don't believe had an upgraded rear swaybar. I think he mentioned the car had springs brakes, light weight wheels and cup tires in the video, but point is, the rear sway is the key to get more rotation at least that's my conclusion thus far.

Yup that's the one. And it seems your experience mirror theirs and more so with your mods.

[markn1689]

I don't understand what APR is suppose to do for you if your turbo blew. Did you find any concrete proof that APR's tune was the cause of your blown turbo? What support are they suppose to offer you? Pay for your repairs? You know the inherent risk when you start tuning and modding your car.

i wasnt asking them for help the repairs got covered under warranty because i swapped ecu's

i only ask that they return my damn emails when i ask them questions about the s3 tune. they have an army of fools whose job it is to support us and awnser questions. after 16 years of being a loyal customer you would think that the LEAST they could do is return an email from me about a tune. nope

[S3Danny]

i wasnt asking them for help the repairs got covered under warranty because i swapped ecu's

i only ask that they return my damn emails when i ask them questions about the s3 tune. they have an army of fools whose job it is to support us and awnser questions. after 16 years of being a loyal customer you would think that the LEAST they could do is return an email from me about a tune. nope

You didn't ask for help yet just made a post bitching that they didn't give you support (For something that isn't even their problem). Which is it?

They won't reply to your emails so your response is to get on the internet and act like a child? How about picking up the phone and seeing if they got your email or ask your questions then?

[markn1689]

asking questions about a tune=asking for help=support
never got a call back from them.

i get pissed when they continually avoid posts from users experiencing issues.

[S3Danny]

asking questions about a tune=asking for help=support
never got a call back from them.

i get pissed when they continually avoid posts from users experiencing issues.

You said they didn't give you support when you blew up your turbos on an S4. Then you said you never asked for help. Then you said you didn't get a reply to a question about an S3 tune. Now you say they're all the same thing?

Users need to go through their dealers that installed the product if they have issues. Not some internet message board.

[markn1689]

no.
i made one statement: i blew 2 sets of turbos in my s4.
2nd statement: they have no support.

[deadbolt]

no.
i made one statement: i blew 2 sets of turbos in my s4.
2nd statement: they have no support.

In the end it sucks how it turned out for you. From my own experience I have never had any issues getting in contact with APR my email, phone or even through PMs in forums. But 1 persons experience isn't the experience the entire collective receives. I have not seen many people chime in with the same issues you have stated in terms of lack of contact from APR.

[Groove1797]

In the end it sucks how it turned out for you. From my own experience I have never had any issues getting in contact with APR my email, phone or even through PMs in forums. But 1 persons experience isn't the experience the entire collective receives. I have not seen many people chime in with the same issues you have stated in terms of lack of contact from APR.

I'm going to second this. I don't even own a car anymore but APR came to my aid after 6 years. I had the first version of the B6 1.8t exhaust and a weld failed. They sent me a new system and paid for overnight shipping. Do you have the emails that you sent? I'm sure Arin would get to the bottom of it.

[rj1031]

I see it like this...if I Stage 3+ my S3, I have an all-around 500+ hp car. Done. Period. $20-30K of total cost of mods (built motor, built trans, axles, turbo kit, and etc.) and labor. Wait! What?!?!?!? With that much money, I could easily sell my locked ecu S3 and get a low miles 997.1 Turbo and have an Alpha 10 package and call it a day. $30-35K w/ labor. Double the horsepower!!! I think whichever direction I'm going, I rather save until my warranty is done.

[Blaine]

I see it like this...if I Stage 3+ my S3, I have an all-around 500+ hp car. Done. Period. $20-30K of total cost of mods (built motor, built trans, axles, turbo kit, and etc.) and labor. Wait! What?!?!?!? With that much money, I could easily sell my locked ecu S3 and get a low miles 997.1 Turbo and have an Alpha 10 package and call it a day. $30-35K w/ labor. Double the horsepower!!! I think whichever direction I'm going, I rather save until my warranty is done.

Same can be said about any car.... just pick the car you like.

Difference is the 997.1 parts will cost you 10X more when they break and then working and maintaining the car is a total Bi#$h. I could buy a 5k C5 Corvette and invest 8k and run 10's... whats the point? It just great that we have the option to buy a kit for this price and run 10's if we choose.. in a 4 door.

AND the 10's was achieved in a NON RACE trim.. seats intact and next to NO WEIGHT LOSS. The wheels used where 19's which are NOT 1/4 mile time friendly due to being much heavier than 17's/18's. I'm guessing the same car with lighter brakes/wheels/slicks would put down a much better time. (Of course running slicks would be much harder on the drivetrain.. you'll find the weak parts REALLY fast!!!) (The PS2 are 2lbs heavier than the Conti's each) There is still much on the table to be gained at the same power lvl. Like to see the same car with some 16lb 18's and slicks or Drag Radials. But it is great APR tested the car and put out the times in full weight.. alot of companies will toss their kit on car with extreme lightening done and a full drag package.

And people keep stating well the S3 will run a tenth slower compared to the Golf R due to its weight, BUT where is this extra weight Front? Rear? Sometimes the extra weight in the RIGHT place helps the 1/4 mile time. Has this been confirmed that the Golf R is indeed faster? See the 2016 Charger Hellcat VS the 2016 Challenger Hellcat.. 400 lbs heavier than the Challenger, but the Charger is faster due to the extra rear weight on the rear wheel for a traction advantage.

[onequick4door]

I love bench racing!

Thanks rj1031 for getting this thread back on track. The fact we can have a functional 4 door than can get into the tens and cruise to work the next day in comfort with a kick ass sound system is just awesome.

The Porsche analogy isn't a good one. Yes the performance level is up there, but the maintenance on those cars is off the chart. If I had to say the best bang for the buck excluding comfort and functionality. The C6 or C7 vettes are it. Parts are affordable, you can still work on them yourself for the most part, crazy support, etc, etc.. . I ran(was on the track at the same time) with 6 brand new Z06's at VIR in Nov. Seeing them in their element full tilt is amazing.

Now bringing this thread back, I look forward to seeing how the changes I make in the coming months/years impacts real world track performance including a big jump in power as well as the continued development of this platform by the Tuners and the collective forums. Should be a lot of fun.