I've had it with the ra4 clutch. Replacement?

[slark]

I know some of you have the Ecs ra4 clutch and like it but I can't handle the vibrations anymore. Acceleration, deceleration, it's just constant and it's too much for a daily. I didn't install it, the PO did, so I can't be sure it was even done right, but it's driving me mad. I'm very sensitive to every little noise and vibration in my vehicles and it's killing me.

That being said, what are my best cost effective options for replacement? I've read through multiple diy's and I feel fairly confident I can do the job myself. I have access to a lift and a tranny jack, thankfully.

As far as things to do while I'm in there, what do you guys recommend? I know some recommend getting a spare slave cylinder just in case. Anything else?

Any other obscure tips? Easier ways to do things?

Any info is appreciated. I feel like I'll have a new love for this car once I get back to a smoother clutch.

Also, anyone want a ra4 clutch with less than 10k on it once i get this done? Haha.

[OhioFatBen]

Look into the Valeo single mass conversion kit. Sounds like it would be right down your alley. OE-spec clutch disc and pressure plate with a single mass flywheel. Not a "lightweight" flywheel either. You get the benefits of the reliability and cost-effectiveness of a single mass, without the vibrations and whatnot. Can be had for less than $500 most places I believe.

[BARRY]

i don't think that has anything to do with the RA4 clutch. i'd proceed to look at your engine mounts, transmission mount, and snub mount. they could be upgraded to stiffer or broken.

[redline380]

I have the RA4 and love it. I agree that if you are getting vibrations take a look at the mounts and such. I get lots of vibrations but have stiffer mounts all around.

The valeo kit would be a decent option if you dont have much power. And if you decide to go through with replacement, I may be interested in the RA4 clutch.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

Definitely look into if your mounts are bad. All it could take is the snub mount being out of alignment and you can get some vibrations. The spongy factory piece could even be ripped if you don't have a poly mount.

Double check motor mounts aren't leaking purpleish goo.

Both those are easy to inspect/fix rather than a clutch job and will likely fix the issue.

Jason

[slark]

Definitely look into if your mounts are bad. All it could take is the snub mount being out of alignment and you can get some vibrations. The spongy factory piece could even be ripped if you don't have a poly mount.

Double check motor mounts aren't leaking purpleish goo.

Both those are easy to inspect/fix rather than a clutch job and will likely fix the issue.

Jason

I've replaced both motor mounts(febi b5 s4, the snub(poly) and the trans mount, and the vibrations have barely changed. The only thing that helped a little was a fluidampr. I wish I could know what else to look for but I'm at a loss.

[slark]

I have the RA4 and love it. I agree that if you are getting vibrations take a look at the mounts and such. I get lots of vibrations but have stiffer mounts all around.

The valeo kit would be a decent option if you dont have much power. And if you decide to go through with replacement, I may be interested in the RA4 clutch.

Does your entire cabin shudder under 2100 rpms? Because that's where I'm at. Everything rattles. It drives me nuts.

[ozMatt]

Does your entire cabin shudder under 2100 rpms? Because that's where I'm at. Everything rattles. It drives me nuts.

It's the single mass flywheel. Heavier ones are better than the light weight ones, but they still "chatter" between 1900-2100 rpms. The fluidamper does help (as you said).

Don't get me wrong, i found the RA4 to be an excellent clutch, but as i live in a hilly area, the vibrations killed it for me. Yes, i learnt to drive around them, but then my mpg went down the toilet.

I ended up going to a sachs performance clutch with a stock dual mass flywheel. No more vibrations.

Recently i was looking to go a less aggressive setup, and was considering the Valeo that everyone raves about. However after some research it was suggested to me the the Valeo kit still has this trait because of the single mass flywheel, maybe not as bad as the RA4, but still there.**

**Personally i would love to hear from more people using the Valeo if they can confirm/deny the vibration issue exists on their setup.

[MetalMan]

Recently i was looking to go a less aggressive setup, and was considering the Valeo that everyone raves about. However after some research it was suggested to me the the Valeo kit still has this trait because of the single mass flywheel, maybe not as bad as the RA4, but still there.**

**Personally i would love to hear from more people using the Valeo if they can confirm/deny the vibration issue exists on their setup.

I drove the Valeo on 2 separate B5s for ~30k miles. Great clutch/FW. Within the last 2 months I switched to a RA4 flywheel with B7 RS4 clutch.
As OP mentioned, with the RA4 there is shudder/chatter which ends by ~2,100-2,200 RPM.
On the Valeo, there is slight shudder/chatter which ends by ~1,800 RPM, but this issue is much less pronounced compared to the RA4. I didn't really notice it.

[old guy]

I have been running a Valeo single mass kit for 40k miles. 20k with a K03 big injector file and 20k with a F21L. I'm totally satisfied with it. I can feel a slight difference from the dual mass flywheel but nothing even close to objectionable.

[diagnosticator]

There are important reasons why the factory flywheel is a dual mass design. The DM flywheel is able to absorb and dampen crankshaft torsional vibrations preventing vibrations from being transmitted to the driveline. Solid flywheels cannot do this. It amazes me how easily many owners dismiss the reasons the factory uses the designs they do, using something else without understanding the technical facts associated with the OE and aftermarket mods parts available. Aftermarket vendors are mainly motivated by profit opportunity, not necessarily providing parts that are the best compromise choice for a given application considering the technical facts involved. The sales hype never mentions the negative consequences that result from non OE design parts.

[ozMatt]

Thanks MetalMan and OG for your input

Diagnosticator- spot on.

[redline380]

It amazes me how easily many owners dismiss the reasons the factory uses the designs they do, using something else without understanding the technical facts associated with the OE and aftermarket mods parts available.

It amazes me how so many people talk about about something they have never used. Time and time again, people always talk about how bad it is, how terrible the chatter can get, blah blah.

Talk to me after you buy one and install one.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

There are important reasons why the factory flywheel is a dual mass design. The DM flywheel is able to absorb and dampen crankshaft torsional vibrations preventing vibrations from being transmitted to the driveline. Solid flywheels cannot do this. It amazes me how easily many owners dismiss the reasons the factory uses the designs they do, using something else without understanding the technical facts associated with the OE and aftermarket mods parts available. Aftermarket vendors are mainly motivated by profit opportunity, not necessarily providing parts that are the best compromise choice for a given application considering the technical facts involved. The sales hype never mentions the negative consequences that result from non OE design parts.

A dual mass flywheel and a clutch disc with a sprung hub work essentially the same. The only difference between the two is the flywheel does the damping compared to the clutch disc.

With our RA4 kit we include discs with sprung hubs. You will get slightly more vibration from a lighter flywheel but anytime you remove a good amount of weight from the flywheel this is common. We also use steel rather an aluminum and keep it at 12lbs compared to some of the other light weight options.

Jason

[Kevin C]

A dual mass flywheel and a clutch disc with a sprung hub work essentially the same. The only difference between the two is the flywheel does the damping compared to the clutch disc.

With our RA4 kit we include discs with sprung hubs. You will get slightly more vibration from a lighter flywheel but anytime you remove a good amount of weight from the flywheel this is common. We also use steel rather an aluminum and keep it at 12lbs compared to some of the other lightweight options.

Jason

One caveat, is that by having a significant mass on the sprung side, a dual mass is a much more efficient filter. Plenty of vehicles are built without a dual mass system, and have acceptable NVH. Every case and every driver is a little different. My new dual mass includes a sprung hub disc.

[cmiguel32]

I have the RA4 clutch kit and the only chatter I notice is when my idle dips below 800 rpms if I nearly stall the car. Love the kit. Not sure what's up with other folk's cars... maybe install?

[Matt Devo]

I have the RA4 clutch kit and the only chatter I notice is when my idle dips below 800 rpms if I nearly stall the car. Love the kit. Not sure what's up with other folk's cars... maybe install?

it seems to be a whole lot worse with the 5-speed transmissions. I'm desperately trying to find a heavier flywheel to use with my JHM RS4 setup as the gear rattle/flywheel chatter is ruining my enjoyment of the car.

[MetalMan]

it seems to be a whole lot worse with the 5-speed transmissions. I'm desperately trying to find a heavier flywheel to use with my JHM RS4 setup as the gear rattle/flywheel chatter is ruining my enjoyment of the car.

Did you see my thread in the B5 section on using the ECS RA4 flywheel with B7 RS4 clutch? ECS says their steel FW is 12lbs, JHM says their aluminum FW is 9lbs. 3lbs could be a solid difference for you.

[Matt Devo]

Did you see my thread in the B5 section on using the ECS RA4 flywheel with B7 RS4 clutch? ECS says their steel FW is 12lbs, JHM says their aluminum FW is 9lbs. 3lbs could be a solid difference for you.

I did indeed, though I've seen posts from RA4 users with 5-speeds who also report chatter/rattle, so am apprehensive to be the guinea pig.

[walky_talky20]

I bought the B7 RS4 kit. I'm hoping to get a ClutchMasters 240mm flywheel to go with it. 19 pounds FTW.

[Matt Devo]

I bought the B7 RS4 kit. I'm hoping to get a ClutchMasters 240mm flywheel to go with it. 19 pounds FTW.

keep us in the loop, I like the sound of that option a whole lot better than the 12lb ECS RA4 flywheel

[MetalMan]

I did indeed, though I've seen posts from RA4 users with 5-speeds who also report chatter/rattle, so am apprehensive to be the guinea pig.

Is the B6 5-speed much different from the B5 5-speed? The main impact for me is that with the RA4 I WILL get chatter while trying to accelerate below 2,200 RPM, in gears 3-5. Cruising and light acceleration are fine below 2,200 RPM, though.

keep us in the loop, I like the sound of that option a whole lot better than the 12lb ECS RA4 flywheel

I like the sound of that better too... but I'm worried that the total height stack-up will be too much without removing a fair amount of material from the CM FW. Still interested to hear about it nonetheless!

[walky_talky20]

Me too. My brother has this exact flywheel in his car. Is it bad that I'm secretly hoping that his car is somehow irreparably damaged such that I can opportunistically liberate its flywheel for my upgrade purposes? lol

[Matt Devo]

Is the B6 5-speed much different from the B5 5-speed? The main impact for me is that with the RA4 I WILL get chatter while trying to accelerate below 2,200 RPM, in gears 3-5. Cruising and light acceleration are fine below 2,200 RPM, though.

the B5/B6 1.8T 01A AWD 5-speeds are identical outside of 5th gear having a slightly different ratio (B5 is taller), but I'm running a B5 1.8T 5-sp currently anyways. I'm experiencing the same with the JHM flywheel, as well as chatter when decelerating below 3k rpm.

[MetalMan]

I'm experiencing the same with the JHM flywheel, as well as chatter when decelerating below 3k rpm.

Now THAT must annoying, since I engine brake (down to ~1,500 RPM) all the time. Aside from the cost savings I'm getting the feeling I made a good choice to skip the JHM FW.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

the B5/B6 1.8T 01A AWD 5-speeds are identical outside of 5th gear having a slightly different ratio (B5 is taller), but I'm running a B5 1.8T 5-sp currently anyways. I'm experiencing the same with the JHM flywheel, as well as chatter when decelerating below 3k rpm.

I was about to ask what rear end you're using but then I saw in your sig you have a DIY 4:1. That sparked my interest, care to elaborate?

Jason

[Matt Devo]

I was about to ask what rear end you're using but then I saw in your sig you have a DIY 4:1. That sparked my interest, care to elaborate?

Jason

the usual B5/B6 5-speed 3.89:1 FDR 01R rear diff. The 4:1 diff is the center/torsen diff, which on the 01A transmissions is very easy to modify (see: http://diffmod.plainbored.com). I'm actually not running the 4:1 diff ATM, as I swapped 5-speed transmissions a while back to try and troubleshoot some drivetrain slop and never got around to putting the diff back in.

[slark]

For anyone wondering, I have the 5-speed. So I'll add a +1 to that column of info.

[CyberPMG]

I've never had any chatter during acceleration or deceleration with my RA4 kit. Granted, mine is a six speed, so this may be a unique issue for the 5 speed transmissions. If you're feeling the vibration in the seat and shifter, then it's likely coming from the rear towards the rear diff mount and not from the clutch. If your clutch kit is using a lightweight aluminum flywheel, consider using a heavier steel flywheel. Optionally, you could also add a Fluidampr pulley to help with any vibrations (and help regain some low end torque).

[Matt Devo]

I've never had any chatter during acceleration or deceleration with my RA4 kit. Granted, mine is a six speed, so this may be a unique issue for the 5 speed transmissions. If you're feeling the vibration in the seat and shifter, then it's likely coming from the rear towards the rear diff mount and not from the clutch. If your clutch kit is using a lightweight aluminum flywheel, consider using a heavier steel flywheel. Optionally, you could also add a Fluidampr pulley to help with any vibrations (and help regain some low end torque).

have fluidampr, still have gear chatter/rattle from lwfw. I'm not sure it made any difference at all honestly

[CyberPMG]

have fluidampr, still have gear chatter/rattle from lwfw. I'm not sure it made any difference at all honestly

Then it must be something to do with a 5-speed vs a 6-speed. I had the prototype RA4 Stage 2 from ECS with an aluminum flywheel. Never had the Fludampr pulley. Actually had a lightweight pulley from ECS. No vibrations ever felt during any acceleration or deceleration. Had massive chatter if I tried getting on it when the RPMs were at or below 2k and not change to a lower gear first. I added the Fluidampr when I was putting in the new (remanufactured) engine into the car along with a rebuilt transmission.

Maybe there's a harmonics difference that's causing the vibrations? I remember a friend who had a stock 1.8T 5-speed and could feel vibrations when accelerating. He had a stock clutch. The clutch was not slipping, so I think the vibration issue may be something else? Maybe it could be the rear differential and/or mount?

[ozMatt]

......Had massive chatter if I tried getting on it when the RPMs were at or below 2k and not change to a lower gear first....

This is what we're talking about. Although in my case any load at this engine speed (~1900-2100rpm) and it would go nuts.
(I had brand new engine and g/box mounts done shortly after to try and fix it but they did nothing)

I believe it is a harmonics issue that is greatly exaggerated by the LWFW, as the stock DMFW just doesn't do this. Maybe a heavier steel FW would help/cure this, but I haven't tried it.
(and it's why I want to try the Valeo, but can't be stuffed changing out a clutch just to test it)

I've experienced this on two different setups as well, my Stg 1+, and a mates Elim 71R. We both have 5-speed box's.
He didn't really care about it, I hated it.

[Charles.waite]

I had some low rev (1200-1600) vibrations with my Valeo SMFW and clutch. It was worse than stock, but not THAT much worse. It was just a greater amplitude than the OEM vibrations.

I'm fairly sensitive to increases in NVH too and it didn't bother me much. There's zero power down there when you're lugging t anyway so there's no real reason not to downshift. The vibration was barely noticeable in 1st FWIW.

I had a 6-speed btw and no real chatter to speak of.

[CyberPMG]

This is what we're talking about. Although in my case any load at this engine speed (~1900-2100rpm) and it would go nuts.
(I had brand new engine and g/box mounts done shortly after to try and fix it but they did nothing)

I believe it is a harmonics issue that is greatly exaggerated by the LWFW, as the stock DMFW just doesn't do this. Maybe a heavier steel FW would help/cure this, but I haven't tried it.
(and it's why I want to try the Valeo, but can't be stuffed changing out a clutch just to test it)

I've experienced this on two different setups as well, my Stg 1+, and a mates Elim 71R. We both have 5-speed box's.
He didn't really care about it, I hated it.

You have two options. If you're at low RPM while driving and need to get on the gas, downshift first and then go. That will raise the RPM above 2000, and life will be fine I would then hold out upshifting until after you go beyond 3000 RPM. This way, when you upshift, you don't end up back below 2000.

Option two will be to change back to a clutch that supports the DMFW.

[jesse500]

Are there any options for say a lower weight, dual mass flywheel? (curious, still new to standard trans. in a overall sense). If not, it seem the 19IB CM steel flywheel, and B7 RS4 clutch setup seems like a good choice. The Valeo SMFW also, but The upside of a lighter flywheel, considering stock DMFW is like 26IB, would be nice.

[Charles.waite]

The b7 clutch is also 240mm vs 228mm so it's larger and all things being equal it can hold more power. It will also have a bit more inertial given the diameter even with the same mass (I think, are my physics right here?)

[MetalMan]

it seem the 19IB CM steel flywheel, and B7 RS4 clutch setup seems like a good choice.

I've been seeing this idea thrown around, but there is no conclusive evidence that it will work out (step height, stack height). Obviously anything can be made to work but in this case that could mean machining the FW and making it lighter.
Also it has the wrong size dowel pins for the pressure plate so something will need to be done there, either drill out the pressure plate holes or use custom dowel pins.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

the usual B5/B6 5-speed 3.89:1 FDR 01R rear diff. The 4:1 diff is the center/torsen diff, which on the 01A transmissions is very easy to modify (see: http://diffmod.plainbored.com). I'm actually not running the 4:1 diff ATM, as I swapped 5-speed transmissions a while back to try and troubleshoot some drivetrain slop and never got around to putting the diff back in.

Ah OK. Thanks for the link and clarification.

Jason

[jesse500]

I've been seeing this idea thrown around, but there is no conclusive evidence that it will work out (step height, stack height). Obviously anything can be made to work but in this case that could mean machining the FW and making it lighter.
Also it has the wrong size dowel pins for the pressure plate so something will need to be done there, either drill out the pressure plate holes or use custom dowel pins.

Clutch masters has the FW, and Something like a FX250 would be a good Stage 2-Stage 3 clutch setup. But $852 hurts.

[AudiA4_20T]

There are important reasons why the factory flywheel is a dual mass design. The DM flywheel is able to absorb and dampen crankshaft torsional vibrations preventing vibrations from being transmitted to the driveline. Solid flywheels cannot do this. It amazes me how easily many owners dismiss the reasons the factory uses the designs they do, using something else without understanding the technical facts associated with the OE and aftermarket mods parts available. Aftermarket vendors are mainly motivated by profit opportunity, not necessarily providing parts that are the best compromise choice for a given application considering the technical facts involved. The sales hype never mentions the negative consequences that result from non OE design parts.

Amen John. I left my DMFW in there even with my BAT setup. You can't beat how smooth it is. And places like Southbend will resurface your stocker for free. Greg (400HPA4) came along and convinced everyone that they needed SMFWs so now people pay a fortune for all these setups (especially Clutchmasters junk). I think my whole setup ran me ~$450, would launch the hell out of that thing and take it to the track with no issues.