Someone talk me out of getting the Neuspeed piggyback.

[markn1689]

100% avoids TD1 if removed before taking to dealer
Easy to install and remove in your garage.
Only 350$
+40hp +40tq gain on awd dyno (moddedeuros)
0-60 times of 3.9sec (moddedeuros)

Questions:
Will these work on 15.5+ s3's?
Will it function properly with a unitronic DSG TCU tune?

[roadrunner_oz]

No, cannot control fueling so will run too lean. The only piggyback able to control fueling is the JB1.

Get APR ;)

[clerkpalmer]

100% avoids TD1 if removed before taking to dealer
Easy to install and remove in your garage.
Only 350$
+40hp +40tq gain on awd dyno (moddedeuros)
0-60 times of 3.9sec (moddedeuros)

Questions:
Will these work on 15.5+ s3's?
Will it function properly with a unitronic DSG TCU tune?

Jb1 fwiw. Both are great products.

[markn1689]

where do i get a jb1 piggyback? i checked burger motorsports site and i don't see our car listed

edit: nm found it

http://burgertuning.com/jb_vw_stage_1_tuner.html

[bhvrdr]

No, cannot control fueling so will run too lean. The only piggyback able to control fueling is the JB1.

Get APR ;)

Do you have a log of any Neuspeed PM car running lean? I've seen you post this 5 or 6 times now but the only log i've been able to find is a JB1 car running lean...

http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showpo...postcount=1021


FWIW, original poster these cars run closed loop from the time they are warmed up. The only time you should have issues running lean is if you exhaust the fuel trims. From what people are posting up to +5psi or so seems to be within normal limits although i'd sure like to see a set of new logs on the JB1 (or any others) that show safe limits.


Mike

[markn1689]

thanks mike!

[Blaine]

Great choice until you want to take it a step further then your gonna need to flash tune, but as stated above the JB1 controls more. JB1 is only in the grey area when you try and increase the boost past the +5 psi since JB1 has the option to customize.

[roadrunner_oz]

Do you have a log of any Neuspeed PM car running lean? I've seen you post this 5 or 6 times now but the only log i've been able to find is a JB1 car running lean...

http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showpo...postcount=1021


FWIW, original poster these cars run closed loop from the time they are warmed up. The only time you should have issues running lean is if you exhaust the fuel trims. From what people are posting up to +5psi or so seems to be within normal limits although i'd sure like to see a set of new logs on the JB1 (or any others) that show safe limits.


Mike

Here you go, it is a DTUK, but uses the same sensors to plug into.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...1#post10582243

No piggyback can compensate for fueling. Been discussed to death, so think what you want. The ECU is "blind" as to the actually boost be added so cannot adjust timing and fuel accordingly. If you are going to tune then do it properly with a flash.

[markn1689]

The only piggyback able to control fueling is the JB1.

No piggyback can compensate for fueling.

huh?????????

[roadrunner_oz]

huh?????????

Sorry, yes, the JB1 can do so indirectly. The JB1 has an extra connector to a sensor on the intake manifold that relates to fueling.

The JB1 biases fuel pressure as a method of keeping short term fuel trims to a stock level. This means the ECU does not rely on a the lambda to see lean due to uncalculated airflow (because boost is tricked) in order to enrich the car. This makes a difference on DSG cars because the boost spike on the fast shitf causes lean spikes with most piggybacks.

[bhvrdr]

Here you go, it is a DTUK, but uses the same sensors to plug into.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...1#post10582243

No piggyback can compensate for fueling. Been discussed to death, so think what you want. The ECU is "blind" as to the actually boost be added so cannot adjust timing and fuel accordingly. If you are going to tune then do it properly with a flash.

What you linked me to is the DTUK unit on the race fuel settings of +7psi and it is showing similar behavior as the JB1 showed at those non recommended settings. Do you have any logs of any of these units at the +5psi settings? I'm still not sure how these +7psi logs of the JB1 and DTUK showing them both running lean would have you recommending away from the Neuspeed and to the JB1? I'm not saying the JB1 isnt a better solution but I dont see any data yet suggesting anything is better or worse yet. Have you?

Sorry, yes, the JB1 can do so indirectly. The JB1 has an extra connector to a sensor on the intake manifold that relates to fueling.

The JB1 biases fuel pressure as a method of keeping short term fuel trims to a stock level. This means the ECU does not rely on a the lambda to see lean due to uncalculated airflow (because boost is tricked) in order to enrich the car. This makes a difference on DSG cars because the boost spike on the fast shitf causes lean spikes with most piggybacks.

This is not exactly the case. The JB1 biases the fuel rail. That is a much different thing than saying the ECU does not rely on lambda to calculate a proper afr. It still DOES do this with the JB1.. which is fine since the car runs in closed loop under load anyways.

What the JB1 supposedly adds is the biasing of the fuel rail. What this theoretically does is keep the fuel trims in check so that if you were running higher boost settings (the +7psi) settings that may require much higher fuel adaptations there will still be headroom in the adaptations because the computer is being fooled into thinking it is making less rail pressure than is really there. This is how things are "supposed" to work. As you could see from the JB1 +7psi logs it is not working that way. The car still will run lean and throw high EGTs apparently.

Either way, the lambda is still what is controlling the afr with ALL of these boxes.



OP:

Either way, the bottom line is to log your car. I havent seen ANY +5psi logs of any of these piggies yet for your cars and that would be what we need to see before making speculations about safety or running lean or not running lean. As long as you can stay within the factory allowable fuel adaptations it is certainly possible that the car will not run lean at all. In fact, Audi uses very conservative engine air/fuel enrichment and self protection strategies based on IAT, ECT, EGT, knock, etc feedbacks so it is theoretically possible that you could actually be running a RICHER air/fuel ratio compared to stock with a piggy back. I can show you logs on the S4 where this is exactly what happened. This is because the added boost will increase heat. Increased heat leads to increased IATs and knock and subsequently triggers the OEM enrichment calibration to kick in (sometimes earlier than it would have without the increased boost). Again, only logging is going to tease out what is really happening though. Id strongly recommend it.


Mike

[coolwater]

If you car is supported, I'd recommend Eurodyne.
Been running it for a couple months now.
Stage 1.5 then added downpipe and went to Stage 2.
Zero issues and all flashed from home.

Haven't been to the dealer for service yet, but others have and so far nobody has reported a TD1 when flashed back to stock.
Here is a 12min video comparison of Eurodyne vs Power module on a MK7 GolfR.



-cW

[2015S3]

I was thinking of going Eurodyne, but I will tell you when we flasjed our 13R shop car and then returned to the dealer to trade in on a 16R, they found the Eurodyne flash I don't know how. They wanted to charge us for a new ECU but since we bought multiple cars from them they did not just threatened to do so. They ended up putting a new ECU in at the dealer.

That said it was also a few years ago so I don't know if this is the same for the "newer" flash suite. I just added the catted Unitronic DP so I was thinking of going Unitronic as they have claimed to reflash back to stock for dealer visits with no issues. I have yet to see this for myself ad we tune many platforms.

[2015S3]

Now onto the PG discussion I have used the Nuespeed, Dtuk abd currently on the JB. I did find some stored coeds in the ECU using vagcom for some sensors out of calibration. I was able to clear them and I periodically go onto the Vagcom to check. Right now all I get is the second o2 sensor issues due to the Uni DP.

The sensor OOS was due to not waiting the full 10-min before disconnecting an reconnecting g the JB1.

[coolwater]

I was thinking of going Eurodyne, but I will tell you when we flasjed our 13R shop car and then returned to the dealer to trade in on a 16R, they found the Eurodyne flash I don't know how. They wanted to charge us for a new ECU but since we bought multiple cars from them they did not just threatened to do so. They ended up putting a new ECU in at the dealer.

That said it was also a few years ago so I don't know if this is the same for the "newer" flash suite. I just added the catted Unitronic DP so I was thinking of going Unitronic as they have claimed to reflash back to stock for dealer visits with no issues. I have yet to see this for myself ad we tune many platforms.

I guess if they want to dig deep enough, they can find something there I'm sure.
I've got additional insurance to cover things in case of a major blow-up...
So far so good though for me.

-cW

[2015S3]

So went back to stock at the dealer and no TD1 correct?

What extra insurance did you purchase?

[ModdedEuros]

Just flash the car with UniConnect and run Unitronic. Than when you need to go to the dealer you can flash back to stock.

No tune/piggyback removes liability of warranty. JB1 states this right onsite

We had the power module on our S3 for a while until UniConnect came out

Power module video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8E-Q2_Ri-k

Videos to come of our project S3 running Unitronic software

[John@Unitronic]

Just flash the car with UniConnect and run Unitronic. Than when you need to go to the dealer you can flash back to stock.

No tune/piggyback removes liability of warranty. JB1 states this right onsite

We had the power module on our S3 for a while until UniConnect came out

Videos to come of our project S3 running Unitronic software

Our Stage 1 Performance Software for the DSG should work fine, but I'd recommend using our Stage 1/1+ ECU Software and Stage 1 TCU Software together, which can be flashed via UniConnect+ from the comfort of your own home or garage. Here are two reviews from two of our Clients who've participated in this thread — one from roadrunner_oz HERE and another from bhvdr HERE. If this is the route you decide, be sure to confirm your ECU Box Code (if possible) and ECU Production Date to be sure we have Performance Software for your specific Box Code.

[roadrunner_oz]

What you linked me to is the DTUK unit on the race fuel settings of +7psi and it is showing similar behavior as the JB1 showed at those non recommended settings. Do you have any logs of any of these units at the +5psi settings? I'm still not sure how these +7psi logs of the JB1 and DTUK showing them both running lean would have you recommending away from the Neuspeed and to the JB1? I'm not saying the JB1 isnt a better solution but I dont see any data yet suggesting anything is better or worse yet. Have you?






This is not exactly the case. The JB1 biases the fuel rail. That is a much different thing than saying the ECU does not rely on lambda to calculate a proper afr. It still DOES do this with the JB1.. which is fine since the car runs in closed loop under load anyways.

What the JB1 supposedly adds is the biasing of the fuel rail. What this theoretically does is keep the fuel trims in check so that if you were running higher boost settings (the +7psi) settings that may require much higher fuel adaptations there will still be headroom in the adaptations because the computer is being fooled into thinking it is making less rail pressure than is really there. This is how things are "supposed" to work. As you could see from the JB1 +7psi logs it is not working that way. The car still will run lean and throw high EGTs apparently.

Either way, the lambda is still what is controlling the afr with ALL of these boxes.

Mike

Incorrect. Mike, you must know more than George from JB1 ;) .... quote from BurgerMS

The car runs lean AFR’s stock direct from the factory. Below is a the stock lambda chart in the software.



Below is a log of the car running at +7.5psi which is not advisable and was only done for experimental purposes. The boost pressure as read by the VCDS log is as seen by the ECU which will reflect stock pressure.



As the car gets into 5th gear the boost target as programmed in the 100 load column is maintained.
The lean running baffles a lot of people myself included and throws a lot of people off hence a lot of conspiracy theories about tunes being too lean etc. We have tested our own GTI and R for a year now, majority of the driving has been foot flat in order to be certain that lean running under higher static compression will not hurt the motor. Another error a lot of people are doing is that they are looking at the EGT's. The figure shown on the logs are not EGT but turbine gas temperature (the primary lambda sits in the exhaust turbine housing) which traditionally runs 120-200 degrees celcius hotter than readings after the turbo. The same can be said for the lambda. On the turbo inconel wheels have been used which is relatively rare so by design the VAG group has has optimized everything for this.
The unit also biases fuel pressure as a method of keeping short term fuel trims to a stock level. This means the ECU does not rely on a the lambda to see lean due to uncalculated airflow (because boost is tricked) in order to enrich the car. This makes a difference on DSG cars because the boost spike on the fast shifts causes lean spikes with most piggy backs.
Customer dyno sheets can be found on this thread: http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10775

[coolwater]

So went back to stock at the dealer and no TD1 correct?

What extra insurance did you purchase?

Geico Mechanical Breakdown insurance.
Covered some work on my A4 when I was TD1.
It's about $100 more each year. After $250 deductible, they cover all mechanical issues on your car.

-cW

[bhvrdr]

Incorrect. Mike, you must know more than George from JB1 ;) .... quote from BurgerMS

The car runs lean AFR’s stock direct from the factory. Below is a the stock lambda chart in the software.



Below is a log of the car running at +7.5psi which is not advisable and was only done for experimental purposes. The boost pressure as read by the VCDS log is as seen by the ECU which will reflect stock pressure.



As the car gets into 5th gear the boost target as programmed in the 100 load column is maintained.
The lean running baffles a lot of people myself included and throws a lot of people off hence a lot of conspiracy theories about tunes being too lean etc. We have tested our own GTI and R for a year now, majority of the driving has been foot flat in order to be certain that lean running under higher static compression will not hurt the motor. Another error a lot of people are doing is that they are looking at the EGT's. The figure shown on the logs are not EGT but turbine gas temperature (the primary lambda sits in the exhaust turbine housing) which traditionally runs 120-200 degrees celcius hotter than readings after the turbo. The same can be said for the lambda. On the turbo inconel wheels have been used which is relatively rare so by design the VAG group has has optimized everything for this.
The unit also biases fuel pressure as a method of keeping short term fuel trims to a stock level. This means the ECU does not rely on a the lambda to see lean due to uncalculated airflow (because boost is tricked) in order to enrich the car. This makes a difference on DSG cars because the boost spike on the fast shifts causes lean spikes with most piggy backs.
Customer dyno sheets can be found on this thread: http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10775

Please tell me what you disagree with. I'd like to discuss.

He states they bias the fuel rail. As I'm sure you know that does not make a car not depend on lambda for air fuel data, all it does is prevent a car from having off the chart fuel adaptations. Biasing the fuel rail means that the car thinks it is using less rail pressure than it really is. Keep in mind Audi is known for having a pressure relieve valve on the fuel rail anyways. So it does allow the car to have more fuel available if you ran out of adaptation but that is only based off of the input from the lambda sensor. Were you disagreeing with that or is there something else you know they are doing?

Again, i'm not sure why you would state that the NS unit is causing lean issues and to stay away from it but now you seem to be saying the lean issues are just fine for the JB1 unit??? All of these units rely upon the factory closed loop fueling to maintain a proper afr. The JB1 gives more headroom (available fuel pressure) in case the adaptations get exhausted (theoretically allowing you to go higher on the boost, but that didnt prove to be true as George stated 7psi was experimental and not advised).

Mike

[TWS3]

I ordered the Neuspeed PM and APR Intake for my 2016 S3 from ModdedEuros and have been extremely happy so far. I do not run my S3 very hard and actually baby it quite a bit. I do not have a DSG tune.

In stock form on 93 octane I recorded two 0-60 runs, using launch control, of 4.49 and 4.55. After I installed the APR intake and PM(+5psi setting) I recorded 0-60 in 3.99 seconds and was very happy with the performance difference and seat of the pants feel.

I plan to run 100 octane race gas this spring and test the +7psi setting.

The install for the APR intake and Neuspeed are very easy and straightforward, I think each are a great bang for your buck.

The guys at ModdedEuros were great to work with and I highly recommend them.

[markn1689]

is the untronic tune ready for my 2015.5?

last i checked my ecu was not supported.

[mroberte]

Went through the same situation, but in the end JB1 won. Love it and it will be upgradable to JB4 when avail for additional power/changes. I already knew a Flash was completely out of the question for me. With some GTI's with bolt-on's making 300 at the wheels, thats pretty impressive for a piggyback!

[ModdedEuros]

is the untronic tune ready for my 2015.5?

last i checked my ecu was not supported.

Not out yet. Not far away though