2001 A6 2.7t timing belt slipped - looking for info on engine swap

[brokenwrench]

First of all, I'm new, so hopefully I'm not annoying anyone too much with what appears to be a common issue.

I'll get straight to it - picked up a car yesterday on a deal looking to fix up a mechanic's special to make a buck or two. seller told me timing belt slipped, but I always wanted a turbo (your laugh hear I suppose). Anyways, I put a battery in it and turned it over this morning and it makes a tick/knock sound and doesn't start, so likely he was telling me straight.

What are the options for a new/rebuilt engine? I see "used" engines all day long on ebay for less than $1k, is it even worthwhile to consider one of those? I don't want to pick up a smoker. I don't see rebuilt long blocks anywhere, so if someone can point me towards that option I'd appreciate it. I can find the heads for relatively cheap, but the engine block/internals seem to cost more than most engines I've worked on.

So then the other option - if I wanted to rebuild another engine, swap to K04 turbos, new suspension, etc. what would such a car be worth?

[a4kamila6]

Best bet would be to find a crashed car with an intact front. At least you know the engine ran more or less before car was crashed. Taking your heads off and fixing everything would be costly. Even finding used heads and taking everything to machine shop would cost a nice penny. Used motor is best bet.


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[brokenwrench]

That's kinda what I was figuring, problem is the local scrap yards are a little sparse on German vehicles, so I'll either have to wait until something "ideal" shows up or get something from the internet. How common is smoking on the 2.7? Does the 2.7 ECU turn down the boost pressure automatically when the engine is still cold (that may be an imaginary feature, but would be really nice) or can I assume since these are luxury vehicles most people would know to read the owner's manual and take it easy when the it's cold?

Also, how do I know if I have the BEL or APB and does it matter which one I get to put back in if I'm not replacing the ECU as well?

And honestly, part of the reason I wanted a turbo was the opportunity to build it up a bit. I'm hoping I can build something that's a lot of fun and then sell it before I have too much fun and break it. But since I'll be replacing the engine anyways, would it be worthwhile to get some K04 turbos, DV's, silicone intake tubing, etc.? Mostly I guess I'm looking for advice on what will give me the biggest performance benefit for the cost.

[Kaane]

A6's have zero resale value, only reason to own one is because you like it. Don't put a dollar into it if you want to make money. Part it out or install cheapest used engine you can get that works.

[a4kamila6]

The most important question would be is it a manual or a tip? If a manual, its worth finding cheap used motor. If its an automatic, dont really think its worth spending a lot of cash on.



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[AudiA4_20T]

Best bet would be to find a crashed car with an intact front. At least you know the engine ran more or less before car was crashed. Taking your heads off and fixing everything would be costly. Even finding used heads and taking everything to machine shop would cost a nice penny. Used motor is best bet.


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If you know what you're doing this is a ~$300 fix. You also say you want engine mods and things but what are your budget and goals?

[a4kamila6]

If you know what you're doing this is a ~$300 fix. You also say you want engine mods and things but what are your budget and goals?

I was under the impression both the block and heads had to be resurfaced or at least should be after removing heads? If not, i could see someone fixing it for cheap.


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[Kaane]

I'll sell you a whole running engine for $600 turbos included.

[AudiA4_20T]

I was under the impression both the block and heads had to be resurfaced or at least should be after removing heads? If not, i could see someone fixing it for cheap.

Hardly. Put a new valve in, sand down any notches in the piston that the valve may have caused, and get a new headgasket/head bolts

[a4kamila6]

Well in that case seems OP should consider a rebuild.


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[4rings2turbos]

I'll sell you a whole running engine for $600 turbos included.

BEL or APB? Shipping would probably be $200 at LEAST to Chicago..

[Kaane]

BEL or APB? Shipping would probably be $200 at LEAST to Chicago..

APB, ya shipping would be expensive.

[brokenwrench]

Ok, sounds like my first option should be a rebuild. No metal shavings in the oil, seller said he ran it for a little bit after it slipped.....guessing it didn't completely blow out the pistons. I guess I'll tear it down and let you guys know what I find out.

[brokenwrench]

While I'm trying to figure out how to pull out the engine so I can pull the heads off, anyone know off-hand how much power the 2.7t tip tranny can withstand? Still not sure what direction I'm going to head with this project, but any insight will help me out.

[4rings2turbos]

People have done mild stage 3, baby stage 3 has been done more often but I think most people here wouldn't recommend that. Stage 1 is fine, stage 2/2+ is doable but it probably won't last as long as you might like.

Of course all of this depends on how hard you drive it.

[brokenwrench]

The engine is almost out, it's completely freed up, I just have to clear up some space on the other side of my garage to make room for it.


Here's what I found when I removed the front cover. I moved the crank to TDC before removing the timing belt (it practically fell off). This is the arrangement I found the cams in.
[IMG][/IMG]


And here's a close-up of the sheared timing belt tensioner pulley bolt. Based on the wear I found inside the timing cover it appears the tensioner was loose for quite a while.
[IMG][/IMG]


And for those who enjoy pictures, a close-up of the pulley itself showing the uneven wear.
[IMG][/IMG]


The bearing on the tensioner pulley appears more or less in good condition, seems odd to me that it would just shear off like that. It must have backed out on its own. Is this a common cause of failure for this problem? So even if the engine overall is salvageable, I have to remove a sheared bolt from the block....I do wish I would learn to stop making impulse buys.

[NuGGet_PuFFer]

Honestly your best bet is to part it out. I'm not trying to be discouraging/negative/a dick, but you're about to throw way more money into that car than u could possibly ever recoup, and it's an automatic. The torque converters in the C5 A6's, particularly those in the auto V6 variety, are ticking time bombs.

If u had a minty 6spd with the same problem(s), and being that you seem like u know your way around a car, I'd say go for it. EVEN IF that were the case, you'd still lose money, just not as much.

These cars are truly unique, and that comes with a cost.

With all that being said, for the money, there are few cars on the road that can give you the kind of premium driving experience that a well-sorted C5 Audi can bring, but again, premium vehicles come with a premium cost of ownership, which most people fail to acknowledge.

[Chris_s1]

So true. My C5 is between 20-30% of where I really want it to ideally be, and I've spent thousands of dollars. To get it too 100%, I'll be looking at a a crazy amount of money. Then again, I'm in love with the car, from the lines to the way it drives. I've only been here a short period of time and I'm still learning a massive amount, but I can tell you that if you don't really love the car you'll absolutely regret throwing money into it. It requires meticulous maintenance and repair, and the mod itch does not stop once it starts. You'll need a new motor, and a 6 speed swap to get it properly done up. Then you've got all the items to replace while you're swapping motors, and turbos, and modding and on and on and on. Point is, if you really know your way around a wrench and you're aware of what you are jumping into, then dig in! Otherwise, part out, get a good chunk of whatever you threw in it back, and move on.

Good luck either way, if you stick with it don't be shy to ask for help. The guys around here are some of the nicest and most helpful you'll ever find.

[brokenwrench]

Finally got the engine out. Haven't had time to remove the heads yet, but hopefully this week.

Sorry for the bad pic, but most people have seen a 2.7t with attached tip anyways...
[IMG][/IMG]

And the empty engine compartment. I decided to remove the engine with trans because there's a good chance if I end up doing anything to this car, mod-wise, it'll involve upgrading the tranny too.
[IMG][/IMG]


Since I'm still not completely settled on what I'll end up doing with this project, I did have another question for the community here.....if I end up swapping to the 01E trans and I replace the engine with one that came out of a manual vehicle (ECU included), will I have to reflash the manual ECU if it's going into a previously automatic vehicle (don't know why I would, but I'm not very familiar with this)? If I understand correctly I will have to reflash the gauge cluster, but anything else?

[Kaane]

You just need to change the adaptation values in the cluster with VCDS, everything else will work fine.

[brokenwrench]

Pulled the passenger side head off last night, it was the worst of the two, timing slipped 270 degrees behind the crank. Driver's side only appears to have slipped one tooth or about 7 degrees. Anyways, here's what I found........

The valves don't appear to have damaged the pistons too much, a little bit of impact near the ring seat and a scrape near the center, but given these are forged pistons this may not be an issue.
[IMG][/IMG]

The center intake and both exhaust valves on each cylinder don't seat.
[IMG][/IMG]


And here are the wheels that came with the car when I bought it. It has the original bland style rims on it now, but he threw these in for a few bucks extra. These are 18", rubber's in pretty good shape still.
[IMG][/IMG]


I may have found a local 2.7 6mt vehicle with "smoking" problems, was in a wreck and has 250k on the clock . The price is right, but I'm pretty wary of purchasing ANOTHER A6 with a bad engine, I'll see what this other one looks like overall though. At this point I think I'm leaning towards a manual conversion and stage 3 kind of project.

[Eurylo]

I may have found a local 2.7 6mt vehicle with "smoking" problems, was in a wreck and has 250k on the clock . The price is right, but I'm pretty wary of purchasing ANOTHER A6 with a bad engine, I'll see what this other one looks like overall though. At this point I think I'm leaning towards a manual conversion and stage 3 kind of project.

The Silver 2.7 with rear end damage, BBS factory wheels and sport seats? I was interested in the vehicle and the owner was vague about alleged services done to it- I got the car fax on it with zero notable services done unlike claims of new clutch, timing etc. and all the recent services performed to the car were at Jiffy Lube or some crap, so I passed. If we are even talking about the same car

[brokenwrench]

The Silver 2.7 with rear end damage, BBS factory wheels and sport seats? I was interested in the vehicle and the owner was vague about alleged services done to it- I got the car fax on it with zero notable services done unlike claims of new clutch, timing etc. and all the recent services performed to the car were at Jiffy Lube or some crap, so I passed. If we are even talking about the same car

Possibly, I think this car's in Windsor. I haven't seen it, just a listing on craigslist. I asked about it a couple weeks ago, but never followed up. Don't know if he still has it. I also found one in Aurora, white with a bad trans.

On another note, a mechanic friend of mine might have found me a pair of K04's. If nothing else, I might build up the engine and sell it by itself to an A4 owner (???).....

[NuGGet_PuFFer]

Possibly, I think this car's in Windsor. I haven't seen it, just a listing on craigslist. I asked about it a couple weeks ago, but never followed up. Don't know if he still has it. I also found one in Aurora, white with a bad trans.

On another note, a mechanic friend of mine might have found me a pair of K04's. If nothing else, I might build up the engine and sell it by itself to an A4 owner (???).....

Or just sell me the k04's

[brokenwrench]

Ok, super exciting news, I found a donor 6mt vehicle that still runs. The interior is too far gone to make it worth bringing back, and besides it's brown inside.

So I'm taking pre-orders for parts - white 2000 A6, brown/tan interior. Has factory GPS and backup/parking sensors. Not sure yet if it'll be worth it to swap those out to the other car yet. Body in good shape, has a sizeable ding in the right-rear quarter panel, otherwise most panels are pretty straight. Rear seating area is still in fairly good shape, I'll post some pics when I get it to the house. I'm keeping the front and possibly rear bumper covers along with the gauge cluster and all 6mt-related parts. I do have a tip with 136k on it and all auto-related parts available, PM me.

Stay tuned for a build thread....

[NuGGet_PuFFer]

Ok, super exciting news, I found a donor 6mt vehicle that still runs. The interior is too far gone to make it worth bringing back, and besides it's brown inside.

So I'm taking pre-orders for parts - white 2000 A6, brown/tan interior. Has factory GPS and backup/parking sensors. Not sure yet if it'll be worth it to swap those out to the other car yet. Body in good shape, has a sizeable ding in the right-rear quarter panel, otherwise most panels are pretty straight. Rear seating area is still in fairly good shape, I'll post some pics when I get it to the house. I'm keeping the front and possibly rear bumper covers along with the gauge cluster and all 6mt-related parts. I do have a tip with 136k on it and all auto-related parts available, PM me.

Stay tuned for a build thread....

Good form sa'

[brokenwrench]

The Audi's are multiplying.....guess that's what happens when I leave them alone for too long.

[IMG][/IMG]

[8520]

I believe this quickly turned in to the epitome of "while you're in there".

[brokenwrench]

One quick question for anyone here - when I was driving the white car into the garage it made a kind of weird noise when I shut it off. Don't know how to describe it, except it was kinda like the old cars that wouldn't quite "shut off" when the key was turned off. You know, like "vroooooom, putter, putter, cough, cough, rattle, wheeze." Is that just the sound of the after run water pump? I drove it a bit before I bought it and everything seemed to be fine with the engine, but without plates I couldn't go very far. Maybe I'll try running it again and see it I can get a video of it.....

--Update: I figured out what the noise is, just a bad radiator fan *phew*. But it does make a lot of noise.

[rollerton]

In the interest of helping you along ..if the outside mirror glass is good I may need a pair. And by "good" I mean "cheap!"

[brokenwrench]

Haven't had time to get started on tearing down the white car yet, but I came across this and it got me thinking of an RS6 type of conversion (I know this isn't a wide-body sort of project, just bare with me).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ENGINE-ASSEM...xW6wFY&vxp=mtr

First of all, will a stock S8 4.2 take the extra power from a pair of turbos? Will the 4.2 be able to be bolted up to my brand-spanking-old 6sp (01E??)? Will the narrow body drive train handle RS6 power? Would it be easier to just get the APB up to 500 bhp? Really hoping someone talks me out of this before I end up with an even bigger project on my hands.....

Of course, there's always something like this, you know, "since I'm in there anyways"...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-14-AUDI...VWxloD&vxp=mtr



btw, aside from flared quarter panels and different front fenders and wider rocker panels, what's the difference between the wide and narrow bodies? Interior? Axles, hubs - where does the track width difference come from?

[brokenwrench]

In the interest of helping you along ..if the outside mirror glass is good I may need a pair. And by "good" I mean "cheap!"

PM me, I'm more than happy to get this car out of my garage, even one part at a time.

[8520]

Honestly. Keep it simple. Get a good 6 speed car running with bigger turbos and go from there.

An rs/wide body project is a lottttt of work and you really need a good, at this stage 3rd, donor car.

[brokenwrench]

I wasn't thinking of a wide body conversion, I'm not THAT much of a masochist. I've done similar things like that before, and I honestly don't have the time or space for that much body work. But I would like RS6 power, at least - or even D4 S8 kind of power....hhhmmm

[8520]

Your most cost effective option is the 2.7 if you want big power. Stock motor is good for roughly 450whp 475wtq on a stock block, depending on your tuner.

An rs6 motor will only fit in a widebody car anyways, as the frame rails are 2" longer.

[brokenwrench]

An rs6 motor will only fit in a widebody car anyways, as the frame rails are 2" longer.

^^Ah, that's exactly the information I was looking for.

Alright, 2.7 project here I go...

[brokenwrench]

So in the process of trying to source a couple turbos for my 2.7, I came across a little gem: IHI RHF5 turbos from an early Cayenne. Dozens are available on ebay right now, cost is about 25-35% less than used K04's I've been finding. Ball bearing, slightly better performance than the K04 overall. Only drawback I can find right now is I would have to fabricate my own exhaust manifold. Since I was planning on replacing the downpipes and the rest of the intake/exhaust that part of the project would be a wash either way.

I'm looking pretty seriously into the RHF5 rather than the K04 due to the higher altitude environment I live in here in northern CO. Also, it would appear to provide higher overall pressure and better high-rpm performance.

Does anyone know of anyone else trying this combination already?

[MrWalker]

hey i'm planning the same upgrade to my 2.7. its auto and i'l swapping it out to stick. the guys here are really good with this so if they can correct me if I'm wrong but the stock auto transmission won't support ko4s. at least thats what i was told when i spoke to a shop about upgrading. also if you run the vin number you can find out who engine you have. i believe you may have BEL like mine if its between the years 2001-2004 and TIP.

[MrWalker]

Also, how do I know if I have the BEL or APB and does it matter which one I get to put back in if I'm not replacing the ECU as well?

I did some looking around and BEL/APB are both from 2000-2004. i have no clue whats the difference between them. I'm sure the guys here could tell you.

[8520]

BEL is slightly stronger. It's a year thing. I believe BEL was 03-04, but check the stamp casting. On APB's its near the front engine hoist hook point.