Audi’s quattro shows not all AWD systems are alike

[purelife]

Read this today about the next generation Quattro.
http://driving.ca/audi/a4/auto-news/...s-are-the-same

[smonska]

What a downgrade. It doesn't even have a center diff, just an engage/disengage clutch. i.e. not real "Quattro". This is the kind of part-time AWD featured on regular 2WD cars so they don't get stuck in snow, not for handling benefits or performance purposes, the sort of AWD system we Audi/Subaru folks have been knocking for years on other makes about how inferior it is. I don't buy the new "next generation" marketing, it's cost cutting and fuel economy all the way.

[R y an]

+1^

[AUDIMAN33]

Quattro has be the Real MVP for a very long time, I think they know what they are doing. I do somewhat question this though.

[Blythiano]

This is the kind of part-time AWD featured on regular 2WD cars so they don't get stuck in snow, not for handling benefits or performance purposes, the sort of AWD system we Audi/Subaru folks have been knocking for years on other makes about how inferior it is. I don't buy the new "next generation" marketing, it's cost cutting and fuel economy all the way.

Hopefully it is sort of the reverse of this and errs on the side of being engaged normal quattro style. Then, it just has the ability to disengage for fuel economy if you're just cruise controlling on a straight highway.

Interesting that article says it will be introduced in the A4 Allroad but was only in the sedan as a test setup.

[jmeenach]

I'm not a fan. With city driving, etc., I feel like there will be a lot of time in FWD, eating front tires and making it so I have more sensors to worry about.

[RudyH]

What a downgrade. It doesn't even have a center diff, just an engage/disengage clutch. i.e. not real "Quattro". This is the kind of part-time AWD featured on regular 2WD cars so they don't get stuck in snow, not for handling benefits or performance purposes, the sort of AWD system we Audi/Subaru folks have been knocking for years on other makes about how inferior it is. I don't buy the new "next generation" marketing, it's cost cutting and fuel economy all the way.

I kind of agree, and would prefer a more mechanically based AWD system vs using electronic clutches.

The kind of part, is just how 'proactive' is the system. In the end, I agree, the consistency of the mechanical diff's are usually better then electronic clutches that are programmed to open and close because at times you can 'over engineer' the program vs mechanical you can likely get more consistent results - with the exception of weather / road conditions.

[Blythiano]

Saw this Audi video on the technology...

https://youtu.be/VjwYNvsJ-OM

[RudyH]

Saw this Audi video on the technology...

https://youtu.be/VjwYNvsJ-OM

Actually was thinking about this morning. The idea isn't half bad...
Example, in Comfort (or rename to Eco) or Auto mode, if you had this technology in place, this is excellent. Cruising the highway you put it in Eco mode and save gas. If you have Dynamic (Sport) mode, you have it locked just like we always have known it to be and have fun on the track or in poor weather conditions.

Auto mode is where Audi can play with the technology to get it to play nice in both situations.

[name.goes.here]

What a downgrade. It doesn't even have a center diff, just an engage/disengage clutch. i.e. not real "Quattro". This is the kind of part-time AWD featured on regular 2WD cars so they don't get stuck in snow, not for handling benefits or performance purposes, the sort of AWD system we Audi/Subaru folks have been knocking for years on other makes about how inferior it is. I don't buy the new "next generation" marketing, it's cost cutting and fuel economy all the way.

Agreed. Engineering is now implemented, as you note, with two objectives in mind: cost cutting and fuel economy.

[smonska]

Hopefully this only shows up on low-performance economy-minded models, i.e. sub 2.0L 4 cyls.

[jmeenach]

Hopefully this only shows up on low-performance economy-minded models, i.e. sub 2.0L 4 cyls.

I REALLY hope this doesn't make it into the S models. Because nothing screams performance like "FWD masked as AWD"

[Killerboots]

Interesting thread, subscribed. I agree with everything being said so far. We'll see if the marketing is real or not soon enough.

[hodrosS42001]

You all realize that this is nothing new.. The A1, TT, TTS, TTRS, A3, S3, RS3 and R8 all use a Haldex based AWD system. I'm sure I even forgot a car or two.

[jmeenach]

You all realize that this is nothing new.. The A1, TT, TTS, TTRS, A3, S3, RS3 and R8 all use a Haldex based AWD system. I'm sure I even forgot a car or two.

And I don't have a Haldex based system and do not want one. And to compare the R8 system to this is like comparing apples to oranges, as the R8 is primarily RWD, as opposed to FWD as described here.

[somedude]

the taurus SHO has been using a varient of the proposed system for years and it handles serious power. It is not fair to compare the 2 systems. different brands, goals, price point, and power. There are a couple guys making north of 600whp and running some nasty 1/4 mile times and it seems to work really well for them. This system launched in 2010.

[smonska]

That video shows why I don't want it, front wheels spin, then rears kick in. However quickly, it's still AFTER slippage occurs, it meaning it isn't dynamically giving power to the rear wheels, as an assist to cornering, let alone a rear bias, like Quattro (especiialy with sport differential) or the system in a WRX or Evo. It's a "if it's slipping only" system. It's going to handle like a FWD car, because it is a FWD until you slip. While I'm no x-drive fan, as it is still a clutch type system, even that is at least RWD biased.

[somedude]

That video shows why I don't want it, front wheels spin, then rears kick in. However quickly, it's still AFTER slippage occurs, it meaning it isn't dynamically giving power to the rear wheels, as an assist to cornering, let alone a rear bias, like Quattro (especiialy with sport differential) or the system in a WRX or Evo. It's a "if it's slipping only" system. It's going to handle like a FWD car, because it is a FWD until you slip. While I'm no x-drive fan, as it is still a clutch type system, even that is at least RWD biased.

the engagement is all in programming. It is purely speculation on how audi would implement this. Who knows it could always be engaged until a given tq request above a certain speed is achieved then it releases the rear wheels to improve economy. I get what you are saying and I don't completely disagree. I feel that audi will implement this system in a more effective way than what the above video shows.

[AUDIMAN33]

So will the new S4 have this shity new Quattro?


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[AnTarbh]

I think we can only speculate if cost cutting is a concern, but there is a push for new legislation (some legislation implemented) that requires auto makers to improve their average mpg. The S models, executive cars, and R8 don't help that average, this is probably one way Audi will get close/r to compliance. It will be interesting to see if they use this system on the higher end models.

Also whoever brought up the uneven wear good point. I wonder what the consequences would be.

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[R y an]

cool slo mo video

[LINDW4LL]

You all realize that this is nothing new.. The A1, TT, TTS, TTRS, A3, S3, RS3 and R8 all use a Haldex based AWD system. I'm sure I even forgot a car or two.

The TT and A3 platform cars all have understeer issues due to only being able to transfer 50% of power to the rear in any real-world conditions. The real question with this new system will be how much power is able to be transferred rearward. I understand this is not a Haldex system but an in house development.

The kind of part, is just how 'proactive' is the system. In the end, I agree, the consistency of the mechanical diff's are usually better then electronic clutches that are programmed to open and close because at times you can 'over engineer' the program vs mechanical you can likely get more consistent results - with the exception of weather / road conditions.

I prefer mechanical quattro as well and hate the idea of a car being FWD much of the time; but theoretically speaking, if this new system can be made to send 75-85% of torque to the rear, it will eliminate everyone's complaints in actual real world driving.

These latest systems are quite amazing in their ability to react before any loss of traction is realized. They use throttle position, yaw sensor, RPM, wheel speed sensors, etc... to truly react in a proactive fashion.

Hopefully this only shows up on low-performance economy-minded models, i.e. sub 2.0L 4 cyls.

I REALLY hope this doesn't make it into the S models. Because nothing screams performance like "FWD masked as AWD"

That's what I read in a few articles. No performance models in the plans.

[jmeenach]

That's what I read in a few articles. No performance models in the plans.

Then I might not care. S4 still in my sights

[btomasie]

Hi all,
sorry if I missed it being blatantly stated, but does the 2017 A4 use the "old" system, or this new next-gen Quattro? I see the original article specified "A4 Allroad" but then described a 2017 sedan as their test mule. So I just want to be 100% sure the normal 2-17 sedan in production still uses the normal system? I am 95% sure I am pulling the trigger on a 2017 Prestige this spring, so want to be sure. Thanks!

Brian

[LINDW4LL]

The B9/2017 A4 uses normal mechanical Crown diff quattro.

[Treiber]

The B9/2017 A4 uses normal mechanical Crown diff quattro.

Is it an official information or just your guess?

[ryan_sn]

Here is a slow mo video of the Haldex system on my S3 that my cousin took. Video quality isn't the best but its watchable. I also have no idea if this was the launch with or without TCS activated since I did one with traction control on and off.

[LINDW4LL]

Is it an official information or just your guess?

That is a fact.

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[CVTwhatadumidea]

You all realize that this is nothing new.. The A1, TT, TTS, TTRS, A3, S3, RS3 and R8 all use a Haldex based AWD system. I'm sure I even forgot a car or two.

The R8 uses a viscous coupling.

[skis4hire]

If you followed the crown gear quattro implementation, it already uses wet clutch plates as part of what controls torque splitting. The tech video for the crown gear diff states that electronic control of these plates can be added allowing 100% torque transfer rather than 85%.
https://youtu.be/_09y0SwOrkA?t=3m37s

100% means you're disengaging the other axle, which is what the newest system is claiming to do.
It's not clear if they're doing it directly in the clutch plate of a crown diff or adding a clutch plate to a separate center diff.

In any case, based on the description what separates this from Haldex is that the center diff itself will be fully mechanical when engaged.
If you left the diff permanently engaged (Say be enabling sport mode? speculation of course..) it would react instantly just like the current system.

Time will tell how the system performs but I don't think Audi would jeopordize it's signature quattro brand with anything sub-par.

[Wilbur]

If you followed the crown gear quattro implementation, it already uses wet clutch plates as part of what controls torque splitting. The tech video for the crown gear diff states that electronic control of these plates can be added allowing 100% torque transfer rather than 85%.
https://youtu.be/_09y0SwOrkA?t=3m37s

100% means you're disengaging the other axle, which is what the newest system is claiming to do.
It's not clear if they're doing it directly in the clutch plate of a crown diff or adding a clutch plate to a separate center diff.

In any case, based on the description what separates this from Haldex is that the center diff itself will be fully mechanical when engaged.
If you left the diff permanently engaged (Say be enabling sport mode? speculation of course..) it would react instantly just like the current system.

Time will tell how the system performs but I don't think Audi would jeopordize it's signature quattro brand with anything sub-par.

I agree 100%. Doesnt make sense for them to go backwards.

[15DGR V6]

If you followed the crown gear quattro implementation, it already uses wet clutch plates as part of what controls torque splitting. The tech video for the crown gear diff states that electronic control of these plates can be added allowing 100% torque transfer rather than 85%.
https://youtu.be/_09y0SwOrkA?t=3m37s

100% means you're disengaging the other axle, which is what the newest system is claiming to do.
It's not clear if they're doing it directly in the clutch plate of a crown diff or adding a clutch plate to a separate center diff.

In any case, based on the description what separates this from Haldex is that the center diff itself will be fully mechanical when engaged.
If you left the diff permanently engaged (Say be enabling sport mode? speculation of course..) it would react instantly just like the current system.

Time will tell how the system performs but I don't think Audi would jeopordize it's signature quattro brand with anything sub-par.

The way I read it, there are two additional clutches, in addition to the existing CGD, to completely disengage the driveshaft and separate the front axle from the rear axle. The clutches simply engage/disengage Audi's existing mechanical Quattro system.

[dbuxton13]

I asked all the above type of questions while at the Frankfurt Auto Show in Germany where they debuted the new S4 and the A4 Ultra. The Ultra is a specific type of A4, which for now is Europe-only. The Quattro on the A4/S4 do not use this Ultra system.

[Jet Jockey]

I could be wrong but I was told that on the B9 A4 it was the TorSen type center diff (not crown type) and that the "Ultra" type Quattro system would be introduced on the new B9 Allroad.

[15DGR V6]

I could be wrong but I was told that on the B9 A4 it was the TorSen type center diff (not crown type) and that the "Ultra" type Quattro system would be introduced on the new B9 Allroad.

That's what is stated in this article:
http://blogs.youwheel.com/2015/06/29...-a4-announced/

Although, I'm not sure that Audi has given up on the Crown Gear Differential as of yet. So far, it's only been used in certain vehicles and they've all been S/RS cars. So, perhaps, it will remain but only for use in S/RS cars.

[dbuxton13]

With regard to the new Torsen type C (or T-3) differential being used in the B9 A4... all the information you can handle, and didn't ask for!:

http://torsen.info/products/T-3.htm

[Jet Jockey]

That's what is stated in this article:
http://blogs.youwheel.com/2015/06/29...-a4-announced/

Although, I'm not sure that Audi has given up on the Crown Gear Differential as of yet. So far, it's only been used in certain vehicles and they've all been S/RS cars. So, perhaps, it will remain but only for use in S/RS cars.

That is my understanding that the S and RS cars will have the Crown Gear diff.