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  1. #1
    Veteran Member Four Rings fR3ZNO's Avatar
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    17Z Pedal Feel Opinions

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    Hey everyone, I did a few searches, but couldn't find much.

    I want to get a few opinions from those of you with 17Z's on the pedal feel.

    I recently picked up a set of them and was worried that the pedal feel would be crap. I currently run B5 S4 calipers in the front and stock rears. I had to bleed the brakes about three times before the pedal was okay. Even then, the feel is kinda meh. I'm pretty sure the air is all out because with the car turned off, the pedal firms right up. It feels like there's more pedal travel before the brakes engage.

    I am also on the stock MC and brake booster as well. I have yet to do any ABS recoding with VCDS, but I don't believe that would alleviate the pedal travel.

    Anyways, back on topic. I am kinda hesitant to install the 17Z's because of a few cases that I've read where the pedal feel is crap. I emailed ECS about pedal travel with their Stage 5 kit with 18Z calipers and they said: "We sell a lot of these kits and have never had any complaints about pedal feel. These are designed to retain the OEM pedal feel even though it is a larger caliper. A lot of the customers who purchase these kits use them for the track."

    So I'm getting mixed answers here. I understand how Pascals Law works and how different MC piston and caliper piston areas affect the pedal feel, but I want to hear some firsthand accounts.
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  2. #2
    Veteran Member Four Rings redline380's Avatar
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    My pedal feel is shit. I chalked it up to having air in the system because I bled and bled an bled through around 4 liters of fluid and finally said screw it, im running them.

    Will probably try bleeding again in the spring. My brakes work, and pretty well at that, but it takes quite a bit of pedal travel.
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  3. #3
    Veteran Member Four Rings fR3ZNO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redline380 View Post
    My pedal feel is shit. I chalked it up to having air in the system because I bled and bled an bled through around 4 liters of fluid and finally said screw it, im running them.

    Will probably try bleeding again in the spring. My brakes work, and pretty well at that, but it takes quite a bit of pedal travel.
    Yeah, I said the same thing after going through like 3 liters of brake fluid. I am planning on putting S4 calipers on in the rear, so I'll have to rebleed it that time, but I won't able to tell if I'm getting air out that's been in the system or if it's air from the new calipers (or both).
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  4. #4
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    I was all set to do the 17 or 18 z conversion but I decided that it is such a mass of upgrade I don't need it. It's pretty funny, our cars have awesome upgrades but this one is like putting a bulldozer brake on a scooter. I definitely didn't want to play with that pedal feel. So instead I got b8 s5 front brakes and b7 s4 rear brakes. Dollar for dollar this is the most efficient brake upgrade. I got drilled CENTRIC rotors, stainless steel lines, calipers with carriers, powerstop Z23 carbon fiber and ceramic pads, which sound pretty interesting and the pads came with hardware. For about seven hundred bucks. I got a liter of Motul RBF 660 for 25 bucks on eBay. The pads are pretty big. I definitely think the 17 and 18 Z are worth it if you can get the pedal feel right and if tracking your car is your plan.

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  5. #5
    Veteran Member Four Rings AudiSport12's Avatar
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    Not what I wanted to read...
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  6. #6
    Veteran Member Four Rings redline380's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacobsen View Post
    I was all set to do the 17 or 18 z conversion but I decided that it is such a mass of upgrade I don't need it. It's pretty funny, our cars have awesome upgrades but this one is like putting a bulldozer brake on a scooter. I definitely didn't want to play with that pedal feel
    Well none of this is incorrect, per se, there is something to be said about aesthetics, like it or not. I'm always a function over form kind of guy, but when I can have it both, why not?

    Considering my 17z's cost the same as your b8 s5 brakes, and most likely less, I'd rather go with the option that looks good too. Not saying the b8's look bad, but 17z's definitely look better.
    “You may recall we went to a PARK IN BOTSWANA." George W. Bush, 43rd President of the United States of America

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  7. #7
    Veteran Member Four Rings fR3ZNO's Avatar
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    17Z Pedal Feel Opinions

    17Z's do look pretty badass^

    I do plan to track my car in the future. How far in the future, I don't know. I haven't bought any other components for the 17Z other than the calipers themselves. I have thought about selling them and picking up a set of used ST40's that are for sale locally. The ST40's are designed for stock MC's but the only thing that I'm hesitant about is that the rotors he's selling with them are kinda crusty and new rotors rings are like $500-700. A 17Z setup can be had for less than that.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by redline380 View Post
    Well none of this is incorrect, per se, there is something to be said about aesthetics, like it or not. I'm always a function over form kind of guy, but when I can have it both, why not?

    Considering my 17z's cost the same as your b8 s5 brakes, and most likely less, I'd rather go with the option that looks good too. Not saying the b8's look bad, but 17z's definitely look better.
    I paid $57 per caliper with carrier

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  9. #9
    Veteran Member Four Rings fR3ZNO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AudiSport12 View Post
    Not what I wanted to read...
    Sorry man! I just wanted to see what people had to say before I bought the rest of the pieces. I see tons of threads regarding 17Z/18Z upgrades, but no one seems to discuss pedal feel.
    "If one does not fail at times, then one has not challenged himself." - Ferdinand Porsche

  10. #10
    Veteran Member Four Rings redline380's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacobsen View Post
    I paid $57 per caliper with carrier

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    wow, that's pretty damn cheap. Tough to beat that!





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  11. #11
    Veteran Member Four Rings LINDW4LL's Avatar
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    Pedal feel is fine- 18Zs are a bit better than 17 due to the smaller pistons, and certainly neither is bad.

    I think lots of people struggle at bleeding these though. They are harder to bleed due to their sheer size and the number of pistons; lots of room for air bubbles to get trapped. I always recommend tapping the calipers with a rubber mallet to knock any air bubbles loose. A power bleeder doesn't hurt, either.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by fR3ZNO View Post
    Sorry man! I just wanted to see what people had to say before I bought the rest of the pieces. I see tons of threads regarding 17Z/18Z upgrades, but no one seems to discuss pedal feel.
    I wonder how big of a deal of master cylinder upgrade is, it can't be that hard. I wonder if you would also have to upgrade the brake booster?

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by redline380 View Post
    wow, that's pretty damn cheap. Tough to beat that!





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    Rockauto is pretty damn cheap, even for OEM parts. The 17z were listed 345 for a set, thought that was a good deal.

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  14. #14
    Veteran Member Four Rings fR3ZNO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LINDW4LL View Post
    Your B6s have the same 25.4mm master as the B7/C5/B5 S4, right?

    If so, pedal feel is fine- 18Zs are a bit better than 17 due to the smaller pistons, but neither is bad. These calipers are hard to bleed though due to their sheer size and the number of pistons. Lots of room for air bubbles to get trapped. I always recommend a power bleeder and tapping the calipers with a rubber mallet to knock any air bubbles loose.
    According to RockAuto, yes. I believe a 25mm bore is listed for the MC. I don't know if the manufacturer just neglects to include the extra decimal point.

    I noticed the 18Z total piston area is smaller than the 17Z. I thought that was interesting. I assumed the larger caliper/rotor would use larger pistons.

    I used a power bleeder and a plastic dead blow hammer when bleeding my B5 S4 calipers and that seemed to help dislodge some air. I stopped trying to bleed them after going through 3 liters of brake fluid.
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  15. #15
    Veteran Member Four Rings redline380's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacobsen View Post
    Rockauto is pretty damn cheap, even for OEM parts. The 17z were listed 345 for a set, thought that was a good deal.

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    that's where I got mine, except only $290 plus shipping. No crossover pipes though





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  16. #16
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    What if you braced the pistons with some kind of shim and lifted it in the air and rotated it around and shake it wild bleeding it. Before you mount it?
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  17. #17
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by redline380 View Post
    that's where I got mine, except only $290 plus shipping. No crossover pipes though





    Sent from my Lumia 900 using Tapatalk
    The ones I saw have the crossover pipes in the photo and I think it was indicated that it included them.

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    APR exhaust, HFC, 225 injectors, APR II program, KO4, South Bend II endurance clutch and SMFW, Forge Tip+piping, Apikol SMIC, Stern motor+trans mounts, Stern Snub, 034 street density arms, Hotchkis sway bars, Lemforter links, Bilstein B8, B7 S4 calipers, powerstop braided lines, Centric drilled rotors, PowerStop Carbon Fiber pads, Timken bearings, Gates racing timing belt, DENSO IQ01-27 plugs, R8 coils, Motul Xcess 5w40, MANN 950/4 filter, gear300, CHF202, Motul RBF 660.

  18. #18
    Veteran Member Four Rings fR3ZNO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacobsen View Post
    What if you braced the pistons with some kind of shim and lifted it in the air and rotated it around and shake it wild bleeding it. Before you mount it?
    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    That's an idea. Maybe not shake it though. Lol
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  19. #19
    Veteran Member Four Rings BARRY's Avatar
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    pedal feel is much better than stock. mind you these are monoblocks so you are eliminating a lot of the flex from any type of sliding piston caliper. this along with braided lines will always give a better pedal feel. also don't forget the spacer and bolt kit is all metal. you'll have a bit less pedal motion to stop compared to stock which is a good thing. along with this a good set of pads will aid in slowing your car down at a higher rate per pedal motion due to the pad brake coefficient of friction. my Ferrodo DS2500's so much better than the Hawk HPS I ran in the past. Also completely quiet vs the HPS. they cost 3x more though, but are so worth it.

    whoever states they had a horrible pedal were missing one of these things, or had air in their system. a properly bleed system will feel awesome where as a system with air in it will feel like crap.

  20. #20
    Veteran Member Four Rings fR3ZNO's Avatar
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    You bring up some good points. I already have braided lines with my S4 calipers. But regardless, much less deflection among other things like you said.

    Thanks for the info!
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  21. #21
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by fR3ZNO View Post
    ...I'm pretty sure the air is all out because with the car turned off, the pedal firms right up.
    This is not likely because there's no air in the (hydraulic) system, but because your brake booster check valve is faulty. Not a surprise given the age of our cars.
    What condition are your HP2 (B5 S4) calipers? Are your pads wearing evenly on both inboard and outboard sides of the caliper? If your caliper is sticking on the slides, you could be getting brake pressure from only one side of the pads, and you'll feel reduced braking effect.

  22. #22
    Veteran Member Four Rings Timtheguru's Avatar
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    Make sure you have the suction jet pump intact, this will make a huge difference in pedal feel.
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  23. #23
    Veteran Member Four Rings redline380's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timtheguru View Post
    Make sure you have the suction jet pump intact, this will make a huge difference in pedal feel.
    I have mine deleted on my B5. Didn't make a difference for stock brakes, but my 17z's have a lot of pedal travel
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  24. #24
    Veteran Member Four Rings Timtheguru's Avatar
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    Stock 1.8t brakes? I can imagine it wouldn't make much difference with those little guys.
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  25. #25
    Veteran Member Four Rings redline380's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timtheguru View Post
    Stock 1.8t brakes? I can imagine it wouldn't make much difference with those little guys.
    Hmm... maybe I will try throwing in the SJP and seeing if the makes a difference. Right now I have a line going right from the booster to the manifold, with a check valve of course.
    “You may recall we went to a PARK IN BOTSWANA." George W. Bush, 43rd President of the United States of America

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  26. #26
    Veteran Member Four Rings Timtheguru's Avatar
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    Julex did some testing adding the SJP back to the 2001.5+ B5S4 (much different than the 2000-2001 SJP) http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4/msgs/212610.phtml.

    There is a nice screw cap 1.8t SJP that is supposed to be less likely to split, like their glued together ancestors. I put one of the newer SJPs in my B6A4 1.8t and the HP2 calipers are much more responsive now, compared to deleted. Little background, original one from the PO was split where it is glued, then I deleted it, then added in the screw cap SJP.
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  27. #27
    Veteran Member Four Rings jjvwg's Avatar
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    not super happy with my pedal feel on my 17z setup. like others have said, I bled about 3 liters through also, on two different occasions with no change. Part of me thinks the check valve to my brake booster is leaking, but haven't added another in line yet to see if it helps. my pedal feel was never great on my b7 a4 setup either however, so I know its not the 17z's or air in the lines. I really need to ad another check valve to see if it helps with booster assistance, otherwise im thinking MC, in which case id like to see if I could step up to something like a b7 rs4 one. right now the only thing keeping me from tracking my car is im not confident in my brakes!
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  28. #28
    Veteran Member Four Rings manhertm's Avatar
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    Had 18z and my pedal feel was pretty firm from what I recall. I felt like the ABS would engage earlier though.
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  29. #29
    Veteran Member Four Rings fR3ZNO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manhertm View Post
    Had 18z and my pedal feel was pretty firm from what I recall. I felt like the ABS would engage earlier though.
    How was the pedal travel and what pads did you run?
    "If one does not fail at times, then one has not challenged himself." - Ferdinand Porsche

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