Originally Posted by
Demringstho864
Thank you for the very very helpful post. I have some additional questions my self. I'm hoping somebody will chime in and put my mind at ease. Because my anxiety is starting to take over. What is the main issue with the timing on the tfsi. Is it just the tensioner ?? Does the chain stretch ?? Should I replace everything or just the tensioner ?? I plan on having this car for quite a while. And I have one of the very few 09s without oil consumption issues. I'm in the process of doing a carbon cleaning. I brought my car in for a p2015 code to the dealership. They confirmed it was the intake flap. But since the service department felt like being douchebags. And my car being slightly modded. I now have TD1. So I'm between a rock and a hard place. I'm rather mechanicly skilled so I don't have a problem with taking on anything. But this is my first Audi. And I'm going to be honest. I'm slightly intimidated.
It is primarily just the tensioner. If you go to my thread, I explain what specifically fails and my thoughts on 'how' it fails.
Yes the timing chain stretches, but this is to be expected and is 'normal'. Audi does state that the chain should last the life of the vehicle - I would tend to agree with that based on how the chain is built. There has been a revised one which the links are beefier; might as well get the new one too. If you're mechanically seasoned and are comfortable doing 'core' engine work, this is a job is possible to complete in a weekend with all the proper tools (depending on how efficiently you work).
Originally Posted by
afstud
i would also like to know if i can get away with just doing the tensioner or which chain is the most prone to failure? does anyone have an idea of what this would or should cost from an independent mechanic to have done? i was thinking of having them do this and a carbon clean at the same time.
As I mentioned above, the tensioner is the key component that NEEDS to be replaced. My thoughts are, if you're in there and that far, you might as well replace all the other timing sets and guides as they all wear together. By the book you're looking at 6.2 hours to R&R the chain so take that and multiply it by the shop's rate (prolly $110 an hour'ish?); so you're looking at $700 in labor at least alone.
Originally Posted by
Demringstho864
I have been quoted anywhere from 2500 to as much as 3700 dollars to have it done. I said I will take what you guys are smoking. Because that much be the good stuff
I can't believe those prices for sure. The whole front of the car has to come apart (bumper, headlights, intercooler, A/C condensor swung out of the way, radiator, front clip, etc.) and then you have to disassemble the timing stuff. To R&R the timing chain, by the book, it's 6.2 hours. I can see that as it took me almost 3 hours to just rip the front of the car apart and I've never done it before nor did I have a manual on this car. Someone who is more familiar could save 30mins I'm sure on that alone leaving the time needed to R&R the chain and components.
As I mentioned above, you're looking at like $700 in labor, at least. If it's a 'full' replacement of all timing (see notes below), you're looking at $1000 in just parts alone. That's still less than $2000 then.
Originally Posted by
Demringstho864
730 is the cost for a complete timing chain kit
Depends on what kit. As I mentioned above, I would highly recommend anyone to just swap all of those internals out. On ECS's site, here is the ultimate kit:
https://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B8_A4...ing/ES2592683/ - $653
That kit does not include a front timing cover, which I will almost guarentee will get bent upon removal (see my thread on why); new cover:
https://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B8_A4....0T/ES2737581/ - $140
and the kit doesn't include the oil pump chain and tensioner:
https://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B8_A4....0T/ES2224492/ - $85
https://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B8_A4...2.0T/ES281409/ - $31
All of that is just over $900 and you'll need to get the proper sealant stuff with is like $70 alone
https://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B8_A4...2.0T/ES463634/
There's a $1000 basically right there.
Originally Posted by
van462
The timing chain as well as the tensioner has been revised, the new chain is much beefier. I was able to get by with just buying a new chain $89 and tensioner $59. I only used two special tools. The T10352 (there are different versions of this tool) for the cam bridge and T10368 crank spacer. Both can bought for around $50 total. For early years the cam bridge has a screen that likely fails. Its worth checking out while there. You may want to replace the guides but I didn't they looked good upon tear down. I recommend permatex ultra black RTV sealant for timing cover reassembly. Its an oil resistant sealant and unlike an anaerobic sealant if you tweak the cover plate a little it will still seal. I did wish I had a crank pulley holder but was able to make due with a strap wrench. Granted without the timing locks I did have to wind the intake cam back as it will spring fwd due to valve spring pressure.
Correct; as I mentioned above, the tensioner has been revised like 6 times already and the newer style chain has beefier links.
I'm not sure why you guys are calling it a 'cam bridge', its the control valve for the intake cam. T10352 removes this. You are correct on that there are 2 different models, T10352 & T10352/1. The kit I mentioned earlier, the part has BOTH versions on the same tool which is actually the T10352/1 (which is very nice). How many miles did you have on the motor when you did your swap? It's possible you may not have had much wear on the guides. Having said that, the timing guides have been revised as well. That black RTV would be a good recommendation; however, it will eventually breakdown with the PCV gases and you might get some oil seapage. I posted a link above on the 'VW' proper sealant that is used on the front cover. The timing locks really help 'hold' everything in place when you re-establish timing.
Originally Posted by
jfo
I don't think you will find any data on the frequency or failure time for these parts yet...just the experience of a small number who have posted here. Here are my thoughts. If you have the old tensioner, it should be a priority repair, IMO. It seems like it's more of a question of when, not if it will fail. From the pic's you can see the problem component in the tensioner is a small piece of stamped metal worth pennies. The consequences of failure are severe however, and can be far worse than Allowencer experienced with bent valves, damaged pistons, etc.
This is only my 2nd vehicle with a chain. I've done tensioners and belts a number of times but never had to replace a chain yet. That doesn't mean my A4 won't need a chain however. My reading has shown that chain does wear over time, usually with the link pin connections enlarging, causing the chain to lengthen. As some point this may cause some issues with the engine not running as well as it should. And it could get bad enough to do more damage but I don't any specifics for our car. It's also possible for a chain to break, but this seems uncommon. The revised chain appears to be more robust. So, it would probably make sense to do the chain while the front is apart, particularly if the mileage is high.
I had the tensioner done with the stage2 fix and in retrospect wish I had also done the chain.
I've covered much of which you've stated to above, so I won't repeat. Based on my findings, the chains that do break seem to break because it catches that oil drain gutter in the front cover since there's so much slack in the chain when you start the car. It literally jumps like a bike chain.
Originally Posted by
S4'ed
T10368 has been replaced with T10351. The old tool often failed to maintain the sprocket timing : when the crank pulley center bolt is removed, the timing often jumps before you can install the T10368.
T10368 hasn't been replaced at all. T10368 doesn't hold timing - it's meant to protect the front splines on the crank's face where the crank pulley bolts into. Timing shouldn't jump at all if you follow the procedure properly. I do not show any details for T10351.
Originally Posted by
van462
I can see where it could easily happen. The crank timing gear uses the same spline type where it mates to the crankshaft as it does to the crank pulley. If it loses orientation you can have a motor that looks to be timed correctly (using the timing chain colored plates and arrows) but will still have valve/piston contact. A guy on VW vortex had this happen.
This is why you use T10368 to maintain pressure against the whole assembly as well to protect the crank's splines.
Originally Posted by
afstud
so i do the tensioner and which chain? i see theres a couple of them, do i just have the top one done?
Here is a pic of the timing in a CAEB motor (from the thread I mentioned):
- The front most chain, which goes to the bottom, is for the oil pump. It has it's own tensioner; pictured in most foreground, lower right. I posted details on this above. The oil pan has to come off to replace this chain.
- The main timing chain is then next and rides on the main timing guide (in the picture its the black guide rail on the left). This goes around the crank and up and around each cam's sprockets
- The 3rd chain is behind the main timing one and that's for the balance shaft. You can see its guides for it, almost placed horizontally and that timing chain has its own tensioner which is more static (you can see it just below the POS tensioner that is prone to failure).
Originally Posted by
A4 Centaur
Sounds like doing the top one with the tensioners are the way to go?
See my previous responses - ideally, you might as well do them all if you're in there and want a good piece of mind.
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