Dyno numbers and mods

[drzero6]

https://youtu.be/Jai9RDImm7k



"Audi S3 free mods"
Milltek catless downpipe with resonated nonvalved exhaust with black oval tips
APR Stage 2
GFB DV+
KN panel filter
300.64 whp and 318.03wtq
Dynomode = hazards, start acc, stop, start acc, gas pedal 4times, start engine

Drivetrain loss (assumption) =33%; 15% VW emission scandal (saw article audi dealer can fix but will loose 15% power) + 18% drivetrain loss (based on APR website numbers)

[drzero6]

[ModdedEuros]

One thing that is important is to have bone stock runs on the dyno you used and than any mod after runs on same dyno to measure lift. Will not be able to really compare anything unless you have before/after

[selp]

Good numbers!

Is there anything specific you need to make sure you do, or the Dyny (awd mustang dyno) knows of the Audi and its transmission?
Is that Dyno mode, needed before dynoing the car? what does it do?

Sorry for the million questions. I was thinking of dynoing the car tomorrow.

[drzero6]

Modded, i wish I did but I tinkered with the car since day one, also we have three different HP figures 286 (mine), 292 (USA), 300 (euro) i think because of emission and poor octane levels but not sure "also assumption" (keyword)

Selp, Ask away.....Nothing once in dyno mode switches off the rear wheels, you can also remove the two fuses (see my youtube channel "drzero6" free mods video) and use a 4wheel dyno....dynojet dyno was used since most of the world use them but does not matter

Now i am comparing modded Audi's since so many different parts and config out there so things can be clear.... I just ordered AFE intake should be arriving in 2weeks, trying to beat strongest S3 in my city which is currently at 310whp .... Also check out this guy....

http://youtu.be/uUfCl64XfUY

His mods in description:

[drzero6]

[drzero6]

Dyno mode:
1. Start button (no brake just acc)
2. Flashers (hazards)
3. pedal 7times
4. Turn on car
If you move the steering wheel or rear tires (meaning not on a dyno) it will abort front wheel drive dyno mode

[Food4Audis]

seems really low for APR stage 2 tune. how come the screen shot says revo?

[drzero6]

Two different cars and tunes, mine is up top and some guy from youtube on the bottom for the sake of comparing mods .... I have the 91octane tune from APR

[drzero6]

Btw DC/VA/MD was my hometown and worked with MachV when I had my evo8 way back when

[MkUrMark]

Drivetrain loss (assumption) =33%; 15% VW emission scandal (saw article audi dealer can fix but will loose 15% power) + 18% drivetrain loss (based on APR website numbers)

What does the emission scandal have anything to do with non diesel cars? Are you messing around or am I missing something

[drzero6]

It started as diesel cars only then they noticed all cars on dyno (or dyno mode); at least that is what I understood and why Audi cars were always underrated .... Either way, I put "assumption" since it is pointless and why I did not try to look for the articles, just some effort to make sense of it all could be wrong but does not change the topic of mods and dyno

[mroberte]

Dyno mode:
1. Start button (no brake just acc)
2. Flashers (hazards)
3. pedal 7times
4. Turn on car
If you move the steering wheel or rear tires (meaning not on a dyno) it will abort front wheel drive dyno mode

For the pedal 7 times, is this the gas or the brake pedal?

[drzero6]

Gas

[drzero6]

My cheat sheet

[MkUrMark]

Those are really cool, I would buy them if the left shoe said dead pedal

[drzero6]

I figured haters would say something like that, so i got these.... Just kidding, for my auto car

[MkUrMark]

Awesome... lol at hating, we do have a dead pedal only

[jshwon]

What am I missing? Why is the whp so low with APR stg2?

[soulflyer]

My cheat sheet

Awesome!! Brand and Model please!!

[drzero6]

Nike ID shoe, from nike.com

[drzero6]

Don't focus too much on the numbers since they are not reflected in the real world.... I have beaten my friends; a GT4 cayman 2 car lengths and BMW 1M even more... From a roll to eliminate driver error...on a car event of course

[jshwon]

I understand dyno numbers are not the end all of how much power your car has but with a tune I would think a minimum amount of power output should be expected. Every tuner of the S3/EA888 engine shows atleast 350+ hp at stg 2. 300whp seems mighty low for a stage 2 S3. Just trying to understand what the factors might have been.

[HurrayFive]

I understand dyno numbers are not the end all of how much power your car has but with a tune I would think a minimum amount of power output should be expected. Every tuner of the S3/EA888 engine shows atleast 350+ hp at stg 2. 300whp seems mighty low for a stage 2 S3. Just trying to understand what the factors might have been.

Peak dyno numbers are absolutely useless and aren't meant to be compared to each other. The only thing a dyno is meant to do is show delta's, same car, same dyno, same day preferably, so that atmospheric and elevation conditions are as close a match between runs as possible.

Do your runs pre-modification, do your runs post-modification, measure the delta, that's it. You now know that based on that dyno, on that day, you've absolutely added n(power). Outside of that dyno, on that day, that number means nothing. This makes it fundamentally impossible to compare peak numbers across dynos (and even across cars on the same dyno), yet people still do it.

This dyno, on this day, showed ~300WHP. That is a useless statistic without a delta. If that same dyno, on that same day, pre-modification, showed something like ~240WHP...then a ~60WHP net gain is right in line with what you'd expect for those modifications, regardless of whatever the peak number is.

My point being, look at dyno's for their purpose, the delta, ignore the peak numbers because they are relative, and especially ignore anything without a delta.

[drzero6]

No way 350+whp.... As you can see from the APR graph, they did a 330whp with intake, DP, and stage 2.... I have a stock intake with panel filter plus our gas is not that clean ... Also i do not know what dyno and corrections APR used if any but what is odd is how low my wtq number even compared to APR's LO output (i have HI output stage 2 91oct)

[jshwon]

This dyno, on this day, showed ~300WHP. That is a useless statistic without a delta. If that same dyno, on that same day, pre-modification, showed something like ~240WHP...then a ~60WHP net gain is right in line with what you'd expect for those modifications, regardless of whatever the peak number is.

My point being, look at dyno's for their purpose, the delta, ignore the peak numbers because they are relative, and especially ignore anything without a delta.

I understand this point perfectly as I've dyno'd a few of my own cars. But a delta is not a dyno's sole purpose. You can't ignore that dyno's are also used to gain an understanding of how much horsepower a car puts down. Why would any tuner post dyno results? You are paying with an expectation that with those mods you should see x amount of power. If a car manufacturer claims a car has 300hp and if you then dyno said car and it puts down 200hp you're going to be scratching your head no?

I'm not dumping on drzero6's numbers I'm just wondering why a stg2 S3 is only making 300whp. If it's off 30whp guess it's not a big deal and there could be factors to that. Like he said he has no intake and gas could be crappy etc.

[ModdedEuros]

Figured I would add an old run of ours

2015 S3 with Neuspeed Power module at 5psi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8E-...noUGot&index=1

Gained 36hp to the wheels over base run

[drzero6]

Nice moddedEuros, and this is why i want people to post mods and dyno.... Also keep in mind my S3 comes rated at 286, US 292, Euro 300hp I think it is due to emissions or gas so once tuned does not matter (also assumption)

[HurrayFive]

I understand this point perfectly as I've dyno'd a few of my own cars. But a delta is not a dyno's sole purpose. You can't ignore that dyno's are also used to gain an understanding of how much horsepower a car puts down. Why would any tuner post dyno results? You are paying with an expectation that with those mods you should see x amount of power. If a car manufacturer claims a car has 300hp and if you then dyno said car and it puts down 200hp you're going to be scratching your head no?

I'm not dumping on drzero6's numbers I'm just wondering why a stg2 S3 is only making 300whp. If it's off 30whp guess it's not a big deal and there could be factors to that. Like he said he has no intake and gas could be crappy etc.

Just for clarification's sake, it is actually its only intended purpose, that people use it to compare peak numbers across physically different measuring devices doesn't make it correct.

Your tuner (and anyone worth paying attention to) is posting DELTAS of the same vehicle on the same dyno before and after modification because that is the only correct way to show a net gain. There are so many variables outside of the SAE smoothing method applied to the dyno; the friction applied to the rollers, the method the rollers contact the vehicle, the software itself that drives the dyno - they all vary wildly but they all do exactly what they are made to do, measure deltas of the same vehicle on the same dyno pre and post modification.

Without a delta, that peak number is useless, end of story. By your logic, I could go to any dyno in the country and put down 380WHP and blow everyone's mind. Meanwhile, if my initial run BEFORE mods was already 330WHP, that's not nearly as impressive as it looks. Someone else could go to another dyno and only put out 300WHP post-mod but 240WHP pre-mod and they actually are putting down MORE power than me because they've picked up a larger net gain. See the point? It doesn't mean you can't pay attention to the peak number, but you shouldn't even consider it without the delta.

[13B]

Time slips and in particular trap speeds for me. I more or less ignore everything else.

[jshwon]

Just for clarification's sake, it is actually its only intended purpose, that people use it to compare peak numbers across physically different measuring devices doesn't make it correct.

Your tuner (and anyone worth paying attention to) is posting DELTAS of the same vehicle on the same dyno before and after modification because that is the only correct way to show a net gain. There are so many variables outside of the SAE smoothing method applied to the dyno; the friction applied to the rollers, the method the rollers contact the vehicle, the software itself that drives the dyno - they all vary wildly but they all do exactly what they are made to do, measure deltas of the same vehicle on the same dyno pre and post modification.

Without a delta, that peak number is useless, end of story. By your logic, I could go to any dyno in the country and put down 380WHP and blow everyone's mind. Meanwhile, if my initial run BEFORE mods was already 330WHP, that's not nearly as impressive as it looks. Someone else could go to another dyno and only put out 300WHP post-mod but 240WHP pre-mod and they actually are putting down MORE power than me because they've picked up a larger net gain. See the point? It doesn't mean you can't pay attention to the peak number, but you shouldn't even consider it without the delta.

You are misunderstanding "my logic". No one is arguing the point of not taking one random dyno result and using that as a benchmark for anything. No were did I say that the delta's are not what matters. What I am saying is there have been several tuners that have done just what you say, and measured against their baseline runs with the same car, dyno etc. And guess what..each tuner is in the same horsepower range for their stage 1 and or stage 2 tunes. So with that you get an average or expectation of how much horsepower you should be gaining with certain software/hardware. While delta's are very important you can't just ignore what the peak horsepower is.

So all that matters is the delta. You go run your stock car on a dyno to get a baseline. Your car is manufacture rated at 250 (for example) it dyno's at 180. You don't care? It doesn't matter? You now have your baseline for a delta but the delta of what it dyno'd at vs what the manufacture rating states means nothing to you? I hear you..I know that people dyno to see what was gained over a baseline. This is nothing new or revolutionary. But to say the numbers don't matter for anything is silly. People buy cars partly because of its performance and tuneability. No peak HP numbers aren't everything but they aren't irrelevant.

[HurrayFive]

You are misunderstanding "my logic". No one is arguing the point of not taking one random dyno result and using that as a benchmark for anything. No were did I say that the delta's are not what matters. What I am saying is there have been several tuners that have done just what you say, and measured against their baseline runs with the same car, dyno etc. And guess what..each tuner is in the same horsepower range for their stage 1 and or stage 2 tunes. So with that you get an average or expectation of how much horsepower you should be gaining with certain software/hardware. While delta's are very important you can't just ignore what the peak horsepower is...

Sorry man, you're missing the point entirely, and a basic understanding of the relative nature of a dyno.

...And guess what..each tuner is in the same horsepower range for their stage 1 and or stage 2 tunes.

That doesn't matter at all, it's coincidence and should be interpreted as such, the result is relative to each individual dyno. My local shop uses an AWD MAHA style dyno that puts out numbers that wouldn't make sense to most people, they read significantly lower than just about every other dyno type. The delta, on the other hand, is on par with what you'd expect for net percentage increase for before/after modifications. Doesn't mean the tune is off or the car is off or the dyno is wrong, the number is relative to that dyno and that dyno alone.

...Your car is manufacture rated at 250 (for example) it dyno's at 180. You don't care? It doesn't matter?

No, it doesn't, because that's not how relativity works. I could go to three different dynos in the same day and get wildly different stock peak numbers. That same MAHA dyno I mentioned above? Bone stock Golf R's and S3's sit somewhere around 210-220WHP as an average. If that were the only figure you looked at, you might think, "Man, that's low, everyone else is dyno'ing at X". That's flawed, and an incorrect way to interpret those results. What you'd also see, if you did an AFTER modification delta run, is that the percentage increase of the base number is right in line with what you'd expect for that modification...even if the peak number by itself is somewhat disappointing. Catching my drift?

Each dynos output is relative to how that dyno is configured. All I know is on that dyno on that day my base is now (using your example) 180. Now, if three other stock S3's happened to visit that dyno on that day and put out significantly more or less than me, that might be cause for concern that something is wrong with the car. It doesn't change the relative nature of each dyno or that fact that peak numbers compared across them is useless.

No peak HP numbers aren't everything but they aren't irrelevant.

I also never said peak numbers were irrelevant, I said they're useless without a delta to show what the total net gain was. See example above.

/end thread jack, sorry OP, I was simply trying to put some context around why these types of runs don't really show anything without a before run and a delta to compare against, I will leave it be.

[ModdedEuros]

Nice moddedEuros, and this is why i want people to post mods and dyno.... Also keep in mind my S3 comes rated at 286, US 292, Euro 300hp I think it is due to emissions or gas so once tuned does not matter (also assumption)

yea really only way to measure power is dyno the car before, than each mod after. same dyno, same car

[travis453]

Am I the only one still wandering if we fall under the emissions scandal since drzero6 stated it has spread to gas cars too. Has anyone run dynos in dyno mode and then with haldex unplugged?? Now I'm interested.

[travis453]

I'm literally wandering the streets. No, wondering* haha