My MTM clutch quits...now what...?

[AvanTTix]

So after a good 10yrs or so of service my MTM pressure plate decided to quit...



I've been in touch w/ MTM-USA and the cost of replacing the pressure plate and the disk is about $1k - flywheel is still good and could be re-used... but I'm struggling w/ the $1,000... 10yrs ago I'd have done it... now, 10yrs later... hum...

I've been looking thru previous threads trying to figure out what other options are out there for a KO4 set-up, and it sounds like the Stage 2 Daily Clutch Kit from ECS w/ South Bend components could be a good candidate...

The one thing I did enjoy about the MTM clutch is how smooth it was and how OEM-like it felt. That's my worry about getting something else. Retaining that OEM-feel is probably the only reason I'd reluctantly spend a grand to get another MTM set-up...

What do people say?

[redline380]

For k04 power, hands down RA4 setup. Never been happier and even though I am on the stock s4 clutch, it has held up to my 320awhp.

[texasboy21]

I second the ECS RA4 clutch. It uses an OEM B5S4 clutch and pressure plate. If you are feeling a bit more spendy, JHM has a similar kit but it uses a B7 RS4 clutch and PP. Both kits include a LWFW.

[old guy]

I suspect that after 10 years the damping springs in your OEM dual mass flywheel aren't as good as you think. You should consider replacing it.

And i really can't recommend a Southbend clutch. I went through two of them. The first one had stack height issues and i had to remove/replace it after one week. The second one had a SS pressure plate that was so damn stiff it eventually bent my clutch fork.

I recommend doing a bit of research before going with a SB clutch.

[itsmatt33]

went from awe tunings south bend kit to clutchmaster fx4000 6 puck to another fx400 6 puck to ECS ra4.

so far both southbend and clutchmasters sucked in terms of reliability and customer service. I am currently still enjoying the ECS kit and have had no issues thus far

[SleeperAvant]

JHM B7 RS4 clutch here and couldn't be happier.

[AvanTTix]

Thanks for the feedback guys!

The flywheel is from MTM to and according to me mechanic which a have total faith in, it's re-usable - springs back and slight resistance, no end play, just normal signs of heat scoring.

For those who have either, how's the feel of the ECS RA4 or the JHM B7RS4? Do they feel OEM-like?

Along w/ reliability, I do want something that is going to be smooth...

[gunde]

I went the ra4 route a few years ago, and it is the only mod I regret on my car. I have installed new engine and trans mounts,fluid damper pulley, and re-installed the OEM snub mount to reduce the vibration I get in the cabin in lower gear. If I drive "aggressively", it is fine. But driving like my grandmother would ( my usual driving style) I get a lot of noise and vibration from this set up. I run a 1.8T, manual, K04, unitronic

[redline380]

I went the ra4 route a few years ago, and it is the only mod I regret on my car. I have installed new engine and trans mounts,fluid damper pulley, and re-installed the OEM snub mount to reduce the vibration I get in the cabin in lower gear. If I drive "aggressively", it is fine. But driving like my grandmother would ( my usual driving style) I get a lot of noise and vibration from this set up. I run a 1.8T, manual, K04, unitronic

This would be the same story for just about any single mass flywheel.

[old guy]

This would be the same story for just about any single mass flywheel.

Not necessarily so. A lightweight single mass flywheel can most certainly cause vibration. A full weight single mass flywheel really doesn't feel that much different then the dual mass.

[Charles.waite]

Not necessarily so. A lightweight single mass flywheel can most certainly cause vibration. A full weight single mass flywheel really doesn't feel that much different then the dual mass.

This. My Valeo kit was pretty vibration free. Maybe at really low revs when lugging it was bad but I think that was caused by other factors.

[Kevin C]

Not necessarily so. A lightweight single mass flywheel can most certainly cause vibration. A full weight single mass flywheel really doesn't feel that much different then the dual mass.

I plan on doing a new clutch when I do my five speed to six speed swap. One idea ( I know that others have looked into this) I had was to see if the 240mm dual mass flywheel from a 2.0 B7 would fit. The B7 uses the same basic 02X transmission that I'm swapping in , has the same crankshaft flange, and the starter motors interchange. That would get me a bit larger clutch and allows me to keep using a dual mass. The downside is that the flywheel is more expensive than even a 1.8T dual mass (although I did find OK price for a LUK on Rock Auto). Stock the 2.0 T puts puts put about 30 ft lbs more tq.. Seems like a good stock style upgrade.

[Charles.waite]

The stock 2.0t clutch is garbage. DM flywheel failures are decently common. Not a bad idea, but I'm not certain the mounting is the same.

[evo_ski]

caused by other factors.

Driver error.

[Charles.waite]

Driver error.

I'm gonna kick you in the shins! You don't even know what a clutch is!

[KHARDa4]

I ran a stock clutch on a built k04 with no problems. Not saying that it couldn't of potentially broke on me. I would if eventually upgraded anyways just food for thought.

[SleeperAvant]

Avanteeix, the JHM B7 RS4 engages smoothly, I have the stage one and it is good for my power levels. It also engaged hard if you want it to. Very street able clutch and isn't a pain when driving in traffic.

I had the southbend stage 4 before and hated it. By comparison I also had a CM FX400 but it only lasted 30,000 miles.

[Kevin C]

The stock 2.0t clutch is garbage. DM flywheel failures are decently common. Not a bad idea, but I'm not certain the mounting is the same.

As far as the mounting goes; I'm not sure either, and so far no one shows that an aftermarket flywheel kit with the same part numbers. A stage three for a B7 is always more expensive, even when compared to the stage 3 B6 240 mm setups. Not sure why. I realize the a DM clutch is one more thing to break, at the same time I have 140,000 miles of DM driving and no failures... It only happens to other people, unless it happens to me.

So my question would be, is the stock 2.0 clutch worse than a stock 1.8 , and how good are the stock aftermarket replacement units.

[Charles.waite]

The 2.0t clutch has a SAC mechanism that's generally fine but can be problematic. I think my b7 has an issue with it as its impossible to properly slip the clutch, you either get a hard engagement or you burn the clutch. There's no feel in between.

Though its original. The aftermarket LUK units could very well be fine, but as you've seen they're super pricey for some dumb reason.

As a point of comparison, but original b6 clutch and my Valeo clutch were both butter smooth and super easy to modulate. Driving the b7 afterwards highlights there being a clutch issue. I've read of a number of b7 people with clutch issues well before 100k that aren't wear related but I know it's hard to get real trends from Audizine. Maybe the clutch is fine but there were some bad units installed at the factory?

[Kevin C]

The 2.0t clutch has a SAC mechanism that's generally fine but can be problematic. I think my b7 has an issue with it as its impossible to properly slip the clutch, you either get a hard engagement or you burn the clutch. There's no feel in between.

Though its original. The aftermarket LUK units could very well be fine, but as you've seen they're super pricey for some dumb reason.

As a point of comparison, but original b6 clutch and my Valeo clutch were both butter smooth and super easy to modulate. Driving the b7 afterwards highlights there being a clutch issue. I've read of a number of b7 people with clutch issues well before 100k that aren't wear related but I know it's hard to get real trends from Audizine. Maybe the clutch is fine but there were some bad units installed at the factory?

Good info, thanks! One thing that matters for feel is the wave spring in between the friction faces, I wonder if it's different on the 2.0. More things too look at.

[walky_talky20]

If you decide to go with a B7 RS4 clutch kit, and are wanting OEM feel, I would recommend you change your clutch pedal over-center spring for the more suitable up-rated spring from the B6/B7 V8 models. This thread on the B7 RS4 clutch upgrade in the B5 Forum discusses the advantages to swapping in a suitable spring when using upgraded pressure plates:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...1#post11302610

Here is the difference.

B6 A4 1.8T/3.0 Spring (weak-sauce):



B7 RS4 Spring (The blue adds at least 5HP):

[onceover]

Some misinformation here. The ECS RA4 Kit uses either B6/7 S4 parts or B7 RS4 parts of you go to the Stage 2 kit

I'm using a RA4 stage 2 and couldn't be happier. Came from a clutch masters FX400 before this and the pedal feel and engagement is so much better.

[redline380]

Some misinformation here. The ECS RA4 Kit uses either B6/7 S4 parts or B7 RS4 parts of you go to the Stage 2 kit

I like how you call out misinformation and indeed you are the incorrect one.

Stage 1 RA4 is b5 s4 clutch kit
Stage 2 RA4 is b5 RS4 clutch kit
Stage 3 RA4 is FX300 clutch kit

ECS does not have a flywheel that will work unmodified with the B7 RS4 clutch kit. JHM offers that.

[texasboy21]

I like how you call out misinformation and indeed you are the incorrect one.

Stage 1 RA4 is b5 s4 clutch kit
Stage 2 RA4 is b5 RS4 clutch kit
Stage 3 RA4 is FX300 clutch kit

ECS does not have a flywheel that will work unmodified with the B7 RS4 clutch kit. JHM offers that.

Yep

Stg1
https://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B6_A4...Clutch/ES5488/

Stg2
https://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B6_A4...Clutch/ES5489/

[AvanTTix]

If you decide to go with a B7 RS4 clutch kit, and are wanting OEM feel, I would recommend you change your clutch pedal over-center spring for the more suitable up-rated spring from the B6/B7 V8 models.

Wanting an OEM feels is exactly what I'm after.

Talking to my mechanic, he's concerned that I won't like the feel/feeddback of a lightweight single mass flywheel vs my current double mass flywheel, and he knows me pretty well since we've been working together for almost 10yrs now... So I can't dismiss his input.

Right now, I don't know what to do... I'm undecided btw getting a new MTM pressure plate & disk, which will give me the same feedback that I've been used to for the last few years, but I'd still be using my current flywheel, or going w/ the JHM lightweight flywheel w/ B7-RS4 pressure plate which is unknown in term of feel/feedback and how different from the OEM feel it would be, but it'd be a brand new set-up... argh... ...

I read that thread you linked to. Some interesting stuff... plus the blue would match the paint...

[Matt Devo]

Wanting an OEM feels is exactly what I'm after.

Talking to my mechanic, he's concerned that I won't like the feel/feeddback of a lightweight single mass flywheel vs my current double mass flywheel, and he knows me pretty well since we've been working together for almost 10yrs now... So I can't dismiss his input.

Right now, I don't know what to do... I'm undecided btw getting a new MTM pressure plate & disk, which will give me the same feedback that I've been used to for the last few years, but I'd still be using my current flywheel, or going w/ the JHM lightweight flywheel w/ B7-RS4 pressure plate which is unknown in term of feel/feedback and how different from the OEM feel it would be, but it'd be a brand new set-up... argh... ...

get a new MTM PP and disc. The JHM RS4 setup is pretty sweet, but it's not going to feel OEM, and you do get some gear rattle when decelerating at low RPMs with the 5-speed transmission (much less so with a 6-sp).

[AvanTTix]

Thanks for the input Matt - your input counts a lot since you and I have had a somewhat very similar approach to/views on our aftermarket mods... I guess I'll just suck it up and move forward w/ MTM...

[walky_talky20]

I agree about lightweight flywheel. I would not want a flywheel lighter than maybe 18 or 20 lbs. I don't think the dual mass aspect matters as much, but the weight is important. 9 or 12 lbs might be fine for a racecar, but for a classy DD, I'd rather something closer to stock weight.

I plan to go with the B7 RS4 kit paired with some aftermarket solid flywheel (probably used) that is at least 18lbs. And do it all for under $400.

[Matt Devo]

I agree about lightweight flywheel. I would not want a flywheel lighter than maybe 18 or 20 lbs. I don't think the dual mass aspect matters as much, but the weight is important. 9 or 12 lbs might be fine for a racecar, but for a classy DD, I'd rather something closer to stock weight.

I plan to go with the B7 RS4 kit paired with some aftermarket solid flywheel (probably used) that is at least 18lbs. And do it all for under $400.

I'd love for someone to suggest such a flywheel that works with the OEM RS4 PP / clutch disc :)

[walky_talky20]

As I'm told, most 240mm aftermarket flywheels can be modified to work. So far, the ECS RA4 flywheel is a good option, although I think I'd want something a little heavier. Maybe a used clutchmasters 240mm, if I could find one. I believe they are 19lbs. Different designs may require extra clearancing for the B7 RS4 pressure plate.

[CyberPMG]

I've put on a ton of miles on the ECS RA4 Stage 2 kit which uses the B5 RS4 OEM clutch and ECS's own single mass steel flywheel. First one was put in by ECS when they were test fitting before releasing to the public. That one had an aluminum flywheel which really was too light for the setup. Clutch engagement is equally smooth as the OEM clutch. Only difference is the engagement point is lower to the floor than OEM. Other than that, there's absolutely no difference in feel when shifting gears. The first clutch lasted close to 190k miles when the engine gave out. That one worked with my Stage 1 Plus setup, my K04 setup, and my GT2871RS Eliminator setup.

When I replaced the engine, I went with a new clutch and decided to stay with the ECS RA4 Stage 2 setup. The only noticeable driving difference with this setup compared to OEM is that I will shift up at slightly higher RPMs so that when the higher gear is engaged, it's running above 2k. If I'm in a high gear and the engine RPM is at or below 2k, it will chatter at me if I only step on the gas. I will also hear some chatter at idle on a hot day with the AC running. Doesn't bother me as the slight change in shift points eliminated the annoyances. Been going strong with the second clutch for 100k+ miles with no slipping issues. I did add a Fluidampr pulley to help with some of the loss of low end torque and to keep things smooth, but it worked equally well without it.

The ECS RA4 kit is well made and is great for OEM turbos, K04s, and the smaller big turbos.

[redline380]

I have basically the same revue^^^

I hate it when people talk bad about things they have no experience with.

[Audi body]

I see no reason to upgrade. The stock oem luk clutch is awesome. It held up to 350hp at the crank before it started to slip. I wish I never went to the fx400 stock luk is very nice and cheap.

[redline380]

I see no reason to upgrade. The stock oem luk clutch is awesome. It held up to 350hp at the crank before it started to slip. I wish I never went to the fx400 stock luk is very nice and cheap.

Are b6 clutches different than b5's? I've had two stock clutches slip with just a chip on my b5's.

[Charles.waite]

Are b6 clutches different than b5's? I've had two stock clutches slip with just a chip on my b5's.

The 1.8t clutches are the exact same.

[redline380]

The 1.8t clutches are the exact same.

Then I must vehemently disagree with the below statement. Stock clutches are weak AF.

I see no reason to upgrade. The stock oem luk clutch is awesome. It held up to 350hp at the crank before it started to slip. I wish I never went to the fx400 stock luk is very nice and cheap.

[Charles.waite]

Then I must vehemently disagree with the below statement. Stock clutches are weak AF.

I would concur. Even something mild like a Valeo is a step up. The OEM 1.8t clutches are designed to last a long time and not slip at stock power levels. That's really the only goal for them. And to do that at the lowest cost to Audi. Yea they can handle increased power but the real question is for how long

Also fwiw the engagement in the b7 clutches is much lower in the pedal travel than the 1.8t. Makes it much easier to start on hills and whatnot.

[Audi body]

Are b6 clutches different than b5's? I've had two stock clutches slip with just a chip on my b5's.

Well on my b6 stroker/3076r it held fine till the power started to get dialed in.

[Audi body]

I didn't get my other clutch in time to drop it in with the build. Had a stock brand new luk sitting around and threw that in for the hell if it. Wanted to see how fast I could destroy it. It really surprised me. It also held Apr ko4 100 octane file with no problems.

[redline380]

I had my 01 chipped, and it slipped in 5th gear right away. Another 20k miles and the pressure plate blew into three places. My avant was sold to me with a slipping clutch. I put in an unchipped ecu and it stopped slipping.

I cannot recommend the stock clutch for anything over stock power.