So it's tune for a tune

[Fociracr]

Long story short I raced a buddy of mine's 05 STI and got walked, he has an Intake and exhaust no tune. From a dig I can take him pretty easily and once I'm ahead he can't catch up but from a roll he pulls on me ever so slightly, by 110 He's got about a car on me. My car is a '10 with DSG and Intake. Well I need a tune and am Leaning towards APR there's a dealer 45 min's from my house happens to also be a Audi dealer that does APR tunes. I was also interested in the EPL tune, would be great to do it you're self and have the ability of going back to stock etc., but I can't justify paying 300-400 bucks more for EPL. APR is 1299$ with tax, I've read some threads on here stating that EPL is 1599-1699$ (quite a bit for a tune), someone correct me if I'm wrong? I'm not trying to say one product is better than the other, just want to get peoples feedback on prices. I need to rematch my buddy's STI afterwards to see the outcome. I've also raced another buddy on mine he has a 14' STI hatch with stage 2 cobb and I was easily able to walk away from him from a roll. Not sure what gives, both guys are very good at driving they're cars. Let me know what you guys think.

[Tod]

What dealer? Hoffman? I'd call first I got 2 different answers form them.
1- no problem they handle the flash etc won't flag you as td1
2- you'll be manually flagged after the flash.

Of course that's if you are under warranty

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[schirm]

Wow that is hard to read. Are you planning to go stage 1 or 2? I would just go stage 2 spend the extra money, it is worth it.

[LordMagnet]

You're quoting EPL stage 2. To go APR stage 2 add another $550 to that price.

[torinalth]

Long story short I raced a buddy of mine's 05 STI and got walked, he has an Intake and exhaust no tune. From a dig I can take him pretty easily and once I'm ahead he can't catch up but from a roll he pulls on me ever so slightly, by 110 He's got about a car on me. My car is a '10 with DSG and Intake. Well I need a tune and am Leaning towards APR there's a dealer 45 min's from my house happens to also be a Audi dealer that does APR tunes. I was also interested in the EPL tune, would be great to do it you're self and have the ability of going back to stock etc., but I can't justify paying 300-400 bucks more for EPL. APR is 1299$ with tax, I've read some threads on here stating that EPL is 1599-1699$ (quite a bit for a tune), someone correct me if I'm wrong? I'm not trying to say one product is better than the other, just want to get peoples feedback on prices. I need to rematch my buddy's STI afterwards to see the outcome. I've also raced another buddy on mine he has a 14' STI hatch with stage 2 cobb and I was easily able to walk away from him from a roll. Not sure what gives, both guys are very good at driving they're cars. Let me know what you guys think.

nothing in your post makes sense. the subaru ECU is super finicky and an 05 with intake and exhaust without a tune is not a happy engine. the 05 STI is slower stock than the 14 STI. the 14 STI is stage 2 which is substantially increased power. but some how you lose to a stock tuned and (as previously suggested) unhappy engine 05 but win against a tuned 14 STI that should easily handle you. Then there is the prices which are completely incorrect. APR is the most expensive in the lot at 1299. the EPL is less, but I don't know how much. I wanna say it was like 1000 or so, but then you gotta buy their cable as well for 250 or so. I can't recall EPLs prices off hand though, so someone else will post exact.

so, nothing makes sense. but either way get it tuned. I'm going APR in another few thousand miles. many others are APR. many are also EPL, especially after their recent stage 2 group buy. pick one and enjoy. Then find out what actually is done to the two Subarus, because none of it sounds correct.

[schirm]

nothing in your post makes sense. the subaru ECU is super finicky and an 05 with intake and exhaust without a tune is not a happy engine. the 05 STI is slower stock than the 14 STI. the 14 STI is stage 2 which is substantially increased power. but some how you lose to a stock tuned and (as previously suggested) unhappy engine 05 but win against a tuned 14 STI that should easily handle you. Then there is the prices which are completely incorrect. APR is the most expensive in the lot at 1299. the EPL is less, but I don't know how much. I wanna say it was like 1000 or so, but then you gotta buy their cable as well for 250 or so. I can't recall EPLs prices off hand though, so someone else will post exact.

so, nothing makes sense. but either way get it tuned. I'm going APR in another few thousand miles. many others are APR. many are also EPL, especially after their recent stage 2 group buy. pick one and enjoy. Then find out what actually is done to the two Subarus, because none of it sounds correct.

My 05 Legacy GT ran just fine with an intake and exhaust before it was tuned. Same motor smaller turbo/ different intake manifold. I thought that was more of an issue with evos.

OP this is correct though, it does not make sense. You should of walked on the STI, I am assuming he either has a tune and doesn't know it, or is not telling you.

[SteveYem]

I owned a 2004 STi with Cobb Accessport stage 2 OTS (off the shelf) tune, and the car felt fast but not really any faster than a stock B8/B8.5 with engine in Dynamic mode. This is per my butt dyno which has questionable calibration. I don't think a stock tuned 05 STi (which is the same engine and tune as the 04 as far as I know) is going to outrun a stock B8/B8.5. Just my opinion based on personal experience.

[Brother Owl]

That 1st gen STI was far lighter than current gen's iirc and the 2.0 boxers took well to bolt ons. That being said, if he's walking you he prob has something else going on or you car wasn't running right... I have walked (sometimes ran) away from many stockish STI's

Edit: high altitude but should be more issues for me than them

[torinalth]

My 05 Legacy GT ran just fine with an intake and exhaust before it was tuned. Same motor smaller turbo/ different intake manifold. I thought that was more of an issue with evos.

OP this is correct though, it does not make sense. You should of walked on the STI, I am assuming he either has a tune and doesn't know it, or is not telling you.

the STIs had different mapping which made them less happy to changes. though to be fair it does depend on the intake used as several changed the flow pattern and if a different size diameter piping the MAF would be off making it run lean, ping, and pull timing. the exhaust allowed the turbo to spool up too fast and typically cause overboost through boost creep (out running the fuel) or general lean conditions. This manifested the worst in 07 where the "revision" on the ECU caused the same conditions on even stock STIs, where they would grenade being perfectly stock. Cool you had an 05 LGT, so did I :) Then 07 wrx.

[Gkit19986]

I had a an STI 2011, you can run a Subaru with intake, exhaust, and on the shell Cobb tune buts it's a wild card. I was pro tuned , meth injection, intake, header, uppipe, down pipe,exhaust , and rotated turbo till the Pistons went and decided to sell the car rather than build the engine.

If you want to preserve your warranty, look into a piggyback option . It will give you similar power as stage1 with fraction of the cost, and you will be able to beat a stock STI hands down , even from a roll.

[Fociracr]

What dealer? Hoffman? I'd call first I got 2 different answers form them.
1- no problem they handle the flash etc won't flag you as td1
2- you'll be manually flagged after the flash.

Of course that's if you are under warranty

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I guess i'll have to go in or call them to see what they say. Haven't done that yet.

[schirm]

the STIs had different mapping which made them less happy to changes. though to be fair it does depend on the intake used as several changed the flow pattern and if a different size diameter piping the MAF would be off making it run lean, ping, and pull timing. the exhaust allowed the turbo to spool up too fast and typically cause overboost through boost creep (out running the fuel) or general lean conditions. This manifested the worst in 07 where the "revision" on the ECU caused the same conditions on even stock STIs, where they would grenade being perfectly stock. Cool you had an 05 LGT, so did I :) Then 07 wrx.

Good info! I put an FPgreen in mine then the motor went a couple years later.


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[Trent212]

Well which ever tune you go with, make sure you get a TCU tune also. Lucky for me APR HQ is less than 30mins from my house, but i really want to get E85 tune (hopefully they have one soon!). EPL and Tony seems like a good combo for sure, but i would say see what dealers are near you, if nothing is fairly close, I would suggest getting giac with the hand held changer or EPL with the cable too, makes changing things around easy.

[Fociracr]

Soo what's all included with a stage 2 from epl, I thought a stage 2 car is a tune with a pulley? maybe i'm wrong.

[14S4GWM]

Soo what's all included with a stage 2 from epl, I thought a stage 2 car is a tune with a pulley? maybe i'm wrong.

You are correct, a tune and pully. In order to tune it from home though you need a cable from epl though. 200$ I believe.

[Fociracr]

Sorry for my shitty story I was at working and trying to type kind of fast. Yeah i'm not sure why my buddy's 05' without tune is faster than the 14' sti with a tune. I know the 14's are heavier but I don't know. I've timed my car 0-60 and just mashing it i can get to 60 in under 5 secs, so I know my car runs good. I guess i'll just have to get a hold of Tony at EPL and see what he says.

[torinalth]

Stage 1 - simple ECU flash
Stage 2 - pulley + flash
some companies also offer tunes for the DSG transmission as well to increase redline and improve shifting and allowing launch control.

also keep unitronic in mind. they also now have flash at home.

[Fociracr]

Stage 1 - simple ECU flash
Stage 2 - pulley + flash
some companies also offer tunes for the DSG transmission as well to increase redline and improve shifting and allowing launch control.

also keep unitronic in mind. they also now have flash at home.

Gotcha so stage 1 tune, stage 2 tune and pulley. I got this right from the APR website (Upgrade from APR Stage I to APR Stage II APR Supercharger Pulley No Additional Charge). Sooo at APR you go stage 1 and get a pulley for free?? Which means stage 2 for the price of stage 1?

[jran76]

Gotcha so stage 1 tune, stage 2 tune and pulley. I got this right from the APR website (Upgrade from APR Stage I to APR Stage II APR Supercharger Pulley No Additional Charge). Sooo at APR you go stage 1 and get a pulley for free?? Which means stage 2 for the price of stage 1?

They mean no additional charge for the software once you buy the pulley.

[Fociracr]

They mean no additional charge for the software once you buy the pulley.

oo ok, so then 1300 plus 550 for stage 2, damn that's quite a bit of change for a tune and pulley. Even if you go with EPL it's still expensive.

[jran76]

Regular prices for Stage 2 are as follows (tune and pulley, no labor):

APR: $1850 (DSG is $1000, EMCS program/map switching is $150)

EPL/CTS: $1650 (DSG is $500, at home flashing cable is $200)

GIAC/AWE: $1850 (DSG is $700, handheld map changer is $150)

Revo: $1450 (DSG is $500, handheld map changer is $170)

Unitronic: $1600 (at-home flashing cable is $150)


All of the above go on sale at some point. Note that the handheld map changer only changes the maps (as does APR's EMCS), but does not allow flashing back to stock. The EPL and Unitronic options do allow fully flashing back to stock.

There are other tuners out there like Solo, Malone, United, etc., but with no documented results. 034 and JHM are also working on eminent releases that so far look promising.

[LordMagnet]

oo ok, so then 1300 plus 550 for stage 2, damn that's quite a bit of change for a tune and pulley. Even if you go with EPL it's still expensive.

Don't forget labor costs for installing the pulley, I think I was quoted between $300 - $400. But I think it's a great value considering the gains.

[LINDW4LL]

I would think twice about going with EPL. While it is cheaper, both APR and GIAC have proven themselves to be the top tunes- check the quarter mile thread for reference. Nothing I've seen from EPL has been impressive (save for one recently where the car had their E85 file with lots of upgraded hardware).

Also, being able to flash from home doesn't really give you any benefit since you are out of warranty anyway, and thus TD1 is not applicable.

[Fociracr]

Regular prices for Stage 2 are as follows (tune and pulley, no labor):

APR: $1850 (DSG is $1000)

EPL/CTS: $1650 (DSG is $500, at home flashing cable is $200)

GIAC/AWE: $1850 (DSG is $700, handheld map changer is $150)

Revo: $1450 (DSG is $500, handheld map changer is $170)

Unitronic: $1600 (at-home flashing cable is $150)


All of the above go on sale at some point. Note that the handheld map changer only changes the maps (as does APR's EMCS), but does not allow flashing back to stock. The EPL and Unitronic options do allow fully flashing back to stock.

There are other tuners out there like Solo, Malone, United, etc., but with no documented results. 034 and JHM are also working on eminent releases that so far look promising.

Well thank you for laying it out that way, makes sense now. It's crazy to think they charge double for a tune then what it costs to do a GTI. I know it's a more expensive car yada yada but still a little ridic. So how much of a gain is it doing the pulley as opposed to just doing the tune.

[jran76]

Well thank you for laying it out that way, makes sense now. It's crazy to think they charge double for a tune then what it costs to do a GTI. I know it's a more expensive car yada yada but still a little ridic. So how much of a gain is it doing the pulley as opposed to just doing the tune.

The tools/equipment that are required to modify and tune the (Simos) ECU on this car are expensive (like more than $10k).

[blbroo]

Well thank you for laying it out that way, makes sense now. It's crazy to think they charge double for a tune then what it costs to do a GTI. I know it's a more expensive car yada yada but still a little ridic. So how much of a gain is it doing the pulley as opposed to just doing the tune.

Just do stage 2 and you won't wonder any more why it cost more than your GTI. The tuned Golf will feel like a Beetle in comparison. Stage 2 S4s are glorious for a car you can daily drive as a family vehicle.


Stay classy.

[Fociracr]

Just do stage 2 and you won't wonder any more why it cost more than your GTI. The tuned Golf will feel like a Beetle in comparison. Stage 2 S4s are glorious for a car you can daily drive as a family vehicle.


Stay classy.

LoL i guess enough said.

[Tod]

Quick question. Any of the tuners offer data logging and revisions on the tunes? Just asking as that was my previous experience on my Jeep. It was nice to get it out and run the tune do some logging and send it in a few times for tweaking

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[roadawg]

The 05 has a tune, there is no way in hell I believe that story otherwise. Those cars only had 230 WHP stock, many struggle to trap much over 100 with those mods, and an intake/exhaust is not going to help much.

Anyway, just get a tune from the closest dealer to you. And with a tune/pulley I would put my money on you without really worrying about it...

[torinalth]

Quick question. Any of the tuners offer data logging and revisions on the tunes? Just asking as that was my previous experience on my Jeep. It was nice to get it out and run the tune do some logging and send it in a few times for tweaking

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everything listed is "canned" tunes. Tony mentioned in one thread that he can do custom tuning on top of the canned with logging, but no idea what the cost is or his willingness to do it. APR has released several revisions of their canned tunes and they keep getting better. I do not know if APR is willing to do custom or not. Listed earlier are the small companies. Solo will do custom as well if I recall it correctly. I know APR has various other maps (race, meth, coming E85, testing dual pulley). it never hurts to ask

[Tod]

everything listed is "canned" tunes. Tony mentioned in one thread that he can do custom tuning on top of the canned with logging, but no idea what the cost is or his willingness to do it. APR has released several revisions of their canned tunes and they keep getting better. I do not know if APR is willing to do custom or not. Listed earlier are the small companies. Solo will do custom as well if I recall it correctly. I know APR has various other maps (race, meth, coming E85, testing dual pulley). it never hurts to ask

Thanks for answering. I was wondering. Looking forward to seeing what epl and 034 bring. I could always run down to AMS for a dyno tune I just can't risk getting td1.

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[ZGskibum]

Sorry for my shitty story I was at working and trying to type kind of fast. Yeah i'm not sure why my buddy's 05' without tune is faster than the 14' sti with a tune. I know the 14's are heavier but I don't know. I've timed my car 0-60 and just mashing it i can get to 60 in under 5 secs, so I know my car runs good. I guess i'll just have to get a hold of Tony at EPL and see what he says.

My stage 1 2011 S4 absolutely walks the dog on the stage 1 2012 STi I traded in for it. The STi was sick, but the S4 is in a totally different league of fast. The REVO tune doesn't get a lot of chatter on the forums, but don't mistake that for a lack of love/respect. The guys at REVO did a terrific job of balancing air/fuel, timing, and boost to make a phenomenal tune that actually gives me better fuel economy than I had stock (personal observation, admittedly possible that it had to do with me driving more aggressively, on average, for the two weeks after buying the car, before I tuned it, than I have tended to overall since), doesn't seem to sacrifice longevity or maintenance, and is filthy, dirty fast. At Stage 1, no pulley upgrade, no intercooler, I'm neck-to-neck with my buddy's stock RS4, and worlds away from every STi on the road that's anything less than a dedicated race car.

Oh yeah, and my wife, not to mention nearly every cop on the road, has no idea I'm driving anything other than a stately, sedate, family sedan.

[Fociracr]

The 05 has a tune, there is no way in hell I believe that story otherwise. Those cars only had 230 WHP stock, many struggle to trap much over 100 with those mods, and an intake/exhaust is not going to help much.

Anyway, just get a tune from the closest dealer to you. And with a tune/pulley I would put my money on you without really worrying about it...

Like I said from a stop he had no chance of catching me, but from a roll he had me (he would shut down about 110, i've done 140 on this same stretch of road, and I know my cars got legs and would eventually catch up.). He has videos of it so I'll try and see if i can get them. I also had a passenger. The STI driver was alone and weighs maybe 160 pounds, between me and the passenger in my car we are at 400. I'm sure it doesn't make that much of a difference but every little bit counts. This is why I'm wanting to do a tune.

[Fociracr]

But I don't know how i pulled on the 14' with a stage 2. He would always get me to 60 but the I'd catch up and pass him. From a roll he stood no chance. I even raced a guy in a stage 2 SRT 4, this guys wouldn't do a dig so I said screw it let's do a roll. He brake boosted and I still walked him pretty easily.

[Fociracr]

I would love to run a stock S4 like mine just to compare. If anyone's ever around my area, otherwise I don't see too many B8's around here.

[ZGskibum]

Start stage 1, you'll be stoked with your new car. Both REVO and, at least I'm pretty sure, APR, offer discounted upgrades from there to stage 2 (basically they sell you the upgrade for the same price as it would've cost you to get stage 2 out the gate), so there's no downside to upgrading incrementally. Especially since once you upgrade the SC pulley, you'll also want/need an upgraded crank pulley and, to prevent heat soak, intercooler. $$$$$ And then, to eliminate body roll and help your car's handling match its power, you'll obviously need sway bars, an Alu Kruetz, a CR-15, and, fuck it, PSS10s. Obviously by that point you'll have long-since upgraded your intake and exhaust. Ooh, and gotta get bigger brakes...

Point being, stage 1 is the most logical stopping place to upgrade your car without descending down the rabbit hole.

[Trent212]

Start stage 1, you'll be stoked with your new car. Both REVO and, at least I'm pretty sure, APR, offer discounted upgrades from there to stage 2 (basically they sell you the upgrade for the same price as it would've cost you to get stage 2 out the gate), so there's no downside to upgrading incrementally. Especially since once you upgrade the SC pulley, you'll also want/need an upgraded crank pulley and, to prevent heat soak, intercooler. $$$$$ And then, to eliminate body roll and help your car's handling match its power, you'll obviously need sway bars, an Alu Kruetz, a CR-15, and, fuck it, PSS10s. Obviously by that point you'll have long-since upgraded your intake and exhaust. Ooh, and gotta get bigger brakes...

Point being, stage 1 is the most logical stopping place to upgrade your car without descending down the rabbit hole.

+1 i am in the hole and it is deep, real deep, can't figure out which turn to take either

[RudyH]

Also, being able to flash from home doesn't really give you any benefit since you are out of warranty anyway, and thus TD1 is not applicable.

Well except for carbon cleaning which Audi allows as long as you aren't TD1'd which is retarded...

[pdqgp]

Stage 2 S4s are glorious for a car you can daily drive as a family vehicle.

^^ This. I drove a friends stock S4 the other day and it felt like a dog, especially around town. He drove mine and grinned from ear to ear and kept asking "where can I get this done?"

[AudBoost]

I would think twice about going with EPL. While it is cheaper, both APR and GIAC have proven themselves to be the top tunes- check the quarter mile thread for reference. Nothing I've seen from EPL has been impressive (save for one recently where the car had their E85 file with lots of upgraded hardware).

Just to add some information about the EPL tune. Did you see this thread? http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...nd-EPL-Stage-1

EPL stage 1 made 69awhp and 58ft\lbs over stock and that's with only 10 minutes for the car to adapt to the tune after flashing (which usually take a day or two for the car to completely adapt) and the car not being completely cooled down. That's a pretty good bump for a stage 1 tune.