ZF8 Transmission- NOT Lifetime fluid

[AllroadCorbin]

All,

So as my car gets up there in miles I've noticed that my transmission shift quality has gone downhill very quickly. Was always clunky in traffic...well before it was tuned. Since about 70k miles onward it got pretty bad. upshifts remind me of the 3 speed auto in my 1992 Saab 900 and downshifts when coming to a stop are abrupt and causing the rpm to jump up....the car feels like its lurching forward as I brake. Also the engagement/ disengagement of the transmission in traffic creates quite the thunk sensation. I'm replacing my engine mounts next weekend with new 034 ones since it can't hurt. Already have the tranny and differential inserts.

When I spoke to multiple dealers they've always told me that the transmission is a non serviceable item.... like a solo cup. They said that I should never replace the ATF fluid or filter...ever.. and that doing so will cause the transmission harm. They even said they've never done it before so they wouldn't even know how. As with most "lifetime" parts on Audis, I called bullshit. Much like the fuel filter...absolutely not a lifetime part. If it's doing its job....it's going to clog up over time. What's odd is that I didn't find much from BMW or MOPAR (both users of the tranny....saying its a non serviceable item.

After much research and hearing conflicting things, I finally emailed ZF and even called them. Much to my lack of surprise, I was right. Over the phone I was told it's "ridiculous" that they say it will last the life of the car. The rep said it's fluid...of course it needs to be changed... nothing lasts forever. Over the phone they said it's highly recommended to do a full flush and filter swap between 60,000-90,000 miles. In the email I received back they said every 60,000 miles or 8 years...whatever comes first. So right now as I sit here with a transmission that feels like it's not long for the world....I'm pretty pissed off at Audi and the dealer. My car is all highway cruising miles...92,000 of them and is only 3 years old. This transmission should not be acting like this. It also has a torque capacity of 480 lb/ft....so my 343 lb/ft from my tune on 93 octane doesn't even come close.

I called the dealership and asked them to get back to me on why they told me not to ever change it when the manufacture of the transmission told me its ridiculous not to.... they said they'll get back to me shortly. I've also emailed AoA asking for a better explanation since there's a chance I've damaged my transmission due to the instructions given to me on multiple occasions by Audi.

I've asked ZF to give me the part numbers/ exact Lifeguard fluid types needed for such a service. I will post them when I receive the information. Below is also the email from ZF:


The OE's always follow the lifetime fluid rule. Especially if the transmission is still under warranty. When it is under warranty we follow the same rules because you can void your warranty by changing the fluid.

When the transmission is out of its warranty period most people like to use the maintenance schedule of 60k miles or 8 years. A drain and fill with a filter replacement is strongly recommended. We strongly suggest using the OE or ZF Lifeguard Fluid 8 fluids. Other types of fluid may cause shift issues.

In your situation, I suggest you check the fluid level and quality of it. There are times when the transmission leaks and a low fluid condition can cause shift quality issues. Once you determine the fluid is ok or not you will have a better idea of why the transmission is acting up. If everything is good then I would try a fluid change and a software update. If the fluid level is low let me know and we can go over your options.

If i'm missing something here let me know haha

[Fburg A4]

I always thought it was interesting that they say that but for some reason they sell filters for the transmission.

[zcspec]

Agreed....

There are many manufactures who list their transmission fluid as a "lifetime", never needing a change. Totally BS because fluid does brake down and needs to be replaced. I've even heard some that manufactures will not replace it because the "bits and shavings" inside help the transmission and if removed, will cause more problems. All of my older, higher mileage vehicles have always received a diff/tranny fluid change and seemed to run even better!

Personally, I am far from this fluid change but am certain, many other members would greatly appreciate the part numbers, etc.

[blbroo]

I changed my manual fluid at 96,000, along with the diff oil and it made the car quieter and smoother.

[AllroadCorbin]

I always thought it was interesting that they say that but for some reason they sell filters for the transmission.

Well i think as these cars age well beyond 100k miles and normal non-enthusiasts who own these cars take dealer advice as gospel, it's going to be a problem that they are going against ZF recommendations.

[AllroadCorbin]

Agreed....

There are many manufactures who list their transmission fluid as a "lifetime", never needing a change. Totally BS because fluid does brake down and needs to be replaced. I've even heard some that manufactures will not replace it because the "bits and shavings" inside help the transmission and if removed, will cause more problems. All of my older, higher mileage vehicles have always received a diff/tranny fluid change and seemed to run even better!

Personally, I am far from this fluid change but am certain, many other members would greatly appreciate the part numbers, etc.

There are magnets inside the transmission that collect these bits so they dont stay in the fluid. Even so.... the concept of using broken bits of metal as a way of having the gears not slip does not sound like an ideal engineering solution

[adamazing]

What a coincidence that you post this. I was just thinking about this a few weeks ago. I had always regarded the "lifetime" fluid claim as complete bullshit and I was already proactively putting it on a schedule to be changed every 35k. I'm planning on giving it the first change in about 6k, so when you get the fluid/filter info from ZF I'd greatly appreciate you sharing the specs.

Good work on calling Audi out on this.

[blbroo]

What a coincidence that you post this. I was just thinking about this a few weeks ago. I had always regarded the "lifetime" fluid claim as complete bullshit and I was already proactively putting it on a schedule to be changed every 35k. I'm planning on giving it the first change in about 6k, so when you get the fluid/filter info from ZF I'd greatly appreciate you sharing the specs.

Good work on calling Audi out on this.

Seems to me that a lot of high mileage cars traded in to dealers are done so because the owner is experiencing transmission issues. Maybe Audi doesn't want it changed so we don't keep our cars forever.... ;-)

[AllroadCorbin]

What a coincidence that you post this. I was just thinking about this a few weeks ago. I had always regarded the "lifetime" fluid claim as complete bullshit and I was already proactively putting it on a schedule to be changed every 35k. I'm planning on giving it the first change in about 6k, so when you get the fluid/filter info from ZF I'd greatly appreciate you sharing the specs.

Good work on calling Audi out on this.

yea no prob. It honestly just seems like a cheap way to make our cars seem cheaper maintain (a selling point). I'm sure Audi banks on most of their customers leasing or changing over their cars every 3-5 years... but for some people like myself who actually wants to keep my car for 5-8 years, this just wont work out. If I find out my transmission has damage related to poor fluid quality/ not enough fluid, I'll be going after Audi to help pay for repairs...despite my mileage. Will I get anything out of them? doubtful but it's a worthwhile argument

[S4'ed]

The fluid and filter should be changed every 30,000 to 40,000 miles......if you want to keep your car.....the "lifetime" claim is BS.

[bluetori]

Contrary to how this thread is going there are members on here that have done this and had good results as well as bad results. My 09 Avant has over 112k on it and once in a while it will kick down hard into first when coming to a stop but other than that no complaints.

[The Infiltrator]

Hmm, I've also been thinking about this. I'm about to hit 39k on the car and had it almost 6 years, but these things still break down after time. Time to change it out I guess.

AudiZine Thread:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...omatic-Quattro

How To:
http://workshop-manuals.com/audi/a4_...ing/page_5009/

[poweredbyaudi7]

Same shit with my Tacoma. All of us on the forums still change it out, just as I plan on doing with this car....

[AllroadCorbin]

Contrary to how this thread is going there are members on here that have done this and had good results as well as bad results. My 09 Avant has over 112k on it and once in a while it will kick down hard into first when coming to a stop but other than that no complaints.

You have a 6hp transmission which is different than the ZF8. From what I read people were told to change fluid in the 6hp which is why ECS tuning actually sells the 6Hp transmission service kit

[yakev724]

Really not a surprise.

Was planning a flush + filter replacement as part of my 75k mile [diy] service. Any info you find on the proper fluid/filter to use would be much appreciated, though I know ZF brands parts + fluids so I assumed that it would be available for the 8 speed.

[yakev724]

Lifeguard 8 seems to be approved for at least some of the 8 speed variations.

BMW has a TSB on servicing them in their cars, funny that Audi doesn't have an equivalent.

[adamazing]

Was planning a flush + filter replacement as part of my 75k mile [diy] service.

This leads to another topic. Many people advise never to flush an automatic transmission - only to do fluid changes.

Might want to ask ZF about that as well.

[jfo]

You have a 6hp transmission which is different than the ZF8. From what I read people were told to change fluid in the 6hp which is why ECS tuning actually sells the 6Hp transmission service kit

Our cars all use a 6HP transmission. The suffix however is different for the 8 speed and there were a number of 6 speed versions it appears. The same change frequency guidelines provided by ZF apply to both. The 8 speed Tiptronic is the 6HP28AF and uses ZF Lifeguard 8. Check your transmission model/code if you're not sure which fluid to use.

[yakev724]

This leads to another topic. Many people advise never to flush an automatic transmission - only to do fluid changes.

Might want to ask ZF about that as well.

Sorry, was being careless. Fluid change is what I in fact meant.

BMW has a part no. for a kit consisting of: pan w/ filter, gasket, drain plug, pan screws - 24118612901

It's for the 8HP45, which may be the variant in our cars as well. If audi won't sell something like this, don't have a problem getting it from their direct competitor.

[yakev724]

Our cars all use a 6HP transmission. The suffix however is different for the 8 speed and there were a number of 6 speed versions it appears. The same change frequency guidelines provided by ZF apply to both. The 8 speed is the 6HP28AF and uses ZF Lifeguard 8. Check your transmission model/code if you're not sure which fluid to use.

Double check your sources - I believe all 8 speeds start with 8 (most are 8HP**, but other variants exist as well)

[AllroadCorbin]

Double check your sources - I believe all 8 speeds start with 8 (most are 8HP**, but other variants exist as well)

Our vehicles should have the 8HP55 transmission. 6HP is a totally different box.

- - - Updated - - -

This leads to another topic. Many people advise never to flush an automatic transmission - only to do fluid changes.

Might want to ask ZF about that as well.

I will ask them about it.

[yakev724]

Here's a thread from a few people who have serviced their 8HP(45?) themselves - http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1016592

[Fburg A4]

There are magnets inside the transmission that collect these bits so they dont stay in the fluid. Even so.... the concept of using broken bits of metal as a way of having the gears not slip does not sound like an ideal engineering solution

Those aren't metal shavings, they are friction modifiers!

[A4 Centaur]

Did mine at 20k or so. I'm at 50k now and will be doing another fluid and flush with BG conditioner and a filter as well very soon.

It's expensive, but I feel it's worth it if you plan on tracking the car or keeping it for a long time. My thoughts on fluids and maintenance are very different than some folks.

[AllroadCorbin]

Did mine at 20k or so. I'm at 50k now and will be doing another fluid and flush with BG conditioner and a filter as well very soon.

It's expensive, but I feel it's worth it if you plan on tracking the car or keeping it for a long time. My thoughts on fluids and maintenance are very different than some folks.

Can you give us some part numbers for fluid/ filter and such? I read you need to drop the pan and replace magnets? Curious what you did

[jfo]

Double check your sources - I believe all 8 speeds start with 8 (most are 8HP**, but other variants exist as well)

My bad. I confused some earlier info about fluid changes on the 6 and 8 speeds. Not sure about the current models, but mine uses the 8HP55AF. Here's a link to some other posts about changing fluid.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...omatic-Quattro

[AllroadCorbin]

On the phone with AoA as we speak... so far they have said they haven't a clue why the dealership would ever tell somebody something different than the manufacture (ZF) would recommend.

Edit: They've taken the information as well as the email I received from ZF. They are reaching out to their technical guys at AoA to see what the heck is going on and to see if they need to change what Audi is telling their dealers. I'll know more soon

[blbroo]

On the phone with AoA as we speak... so far they have said they haven't a clue why the dealership would ever tell somebody something different than the manufacture (ZF) would recommend.

Edit: They've taken the information as well as the email I received from ZF. They are reaching out to their technical guys at AoA to see what the heck is going on and to see if they need to change what Audi is telling their dealers. I'll know more soon

Nice work!

[AllroadCorbin]

Nice work!

I refuse to let this one go down lightly.... less for enthusiasts like me but more for the average joe who buys an audi and wants to keep it a while but doesn't do the kinds of research we do. If they drive it until 125k miles and the transmission dies, Audi just lost a customer for life.

[adamazing]

Great work brotha.

[GilliamOS]

I have 84k miles on my car. I've done a lot of work on the trans in my old B5, and never once had a problem with flushing fluid well past 175k on it. I see no issue with flushing the newer B8 trans if the older and much weaker B5 trans could be too at high miles.

[A4 Centaur]

Can you give us some part numbers for fluid/ filter and such? I read you need to drop the pan and replace magnets? Curious what you did

Check my build thread: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...s-Build-Thread

OEM Gaskets, BG Fluid and Conditioner. 3ZERO3 Motorsports performed the work. I just watched.

http://www.audiworld.com/forums/a6-c...ssion-2840432/

[hyperunion]

I refuse to let this one go down lightly.... less for enthusiasts like me but more for the average joe who buys an audi and wants to keep it a while but doesn't do the kinds of research we do. If they drive it until 125k miles and the transmission dies, Audi just lost a customer for life.

Excellent work!!!.. Always will plan to change mine out once I reach 40k

[AllroadCorbin]

Excellent work!!!.. Always will plan to change mine out once I reach 40k

FYI your signature says 8HP45 which is rated by ZF to handle a max of 500nm (368lb/ft). Our cars actually use the ZF8HP55 which is rated at 580nm (427lb/ft)! :)

[poweredbyaudi7]

Check my build thread: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...s-Build-Thread

OEM Gaskets, BG Fluid and Conditioner. 3ZERO3 Motorsports performed the work. I just watched.

http://www.audiworld.com/forums/a6-c...ssion-2840432/

Post 103 http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...=1#post9102168

[AllroadCorbin]

AoA got back to me:

They told me that after some research and investigating that the dealer advised me correctly that this fluid in the tranny is "lifetime". They told me that these transmissions are sealed and unless there is some reason to suspect that the fluid has become comprised by means of a leak, then they NEVER open these transmissions up. They said that its not something they do and that its not something the dealers are trained to do. AoA claims they have no idea why ZF would tell me to change the fluid every 60,000 miles/ 8 years. To me this seems totally ridiculous....they told me that because they built the damn things and they would know what it needs as far as service. Via email and by phone ZF told me that they highly recommend a fluid and filter change and that the notion of non-serviceable is, and I quote, "Ridiculous".

I also called a BMW dealer to ask them how they service their cars with the 8 speed transmissions and they told me that they recommend a fluid and filter change..... so something just isnt adding up. I really don't know why Audi says not to touch it...

Lastly, ZF told me that they consider "Life" on their transmissions to be 125,000 miles. This thought scared the crap out of me and the bottom line is next time....I'm buying a 6MT....and if my ZF tranny blows up I'm swapping in a 6MT. I will have my independent Audi shop try and fluid change and fliter change.

Just because they said "it's not something we do"...doesn't mean its right. I think this is some serious BS

[gdawg'05a4]

If it's sealed then why have the drain and fill plugs and filter kit for sale? As far as I can remember Audi has always said their TIP transmissions are sealed and maintenance free (i.e. lifetime fluid). The only transmissions they list scheduled fluid changes are the CVT and DSG/S Tronic gearboxes every 35k miles. I changed the fluid in the 8HP at 50k mi...made a noticeable difference in shift quality. There was some metal shavings at the magnets in the pan but nothing out of the ordinary.

[hyperunion]

FYI your signature says 8HP45 which is rated by ZF to handle a max of 500nm (368lb/ft). Our cars actually use the ZF8HP55 which is rated at 580nm (427lb/ft)! :)

Had it at 55 prior ... Changed it back to 55!..thanks.. Actually remember seeing the metal plate stamped on transmission while underneath car!..

[kt883]

As far as they are concerned "lifetime" is lifetime of the warranty and then after that, its not their problem anymore. I definitely think its a method of making it appear cheaper to maintain, plus the additional revenue from repairs, trading in to a newer model is another incentive for them.

I have a 6MT and plan on changing my fluid soon along with rear diff.

[yakev724]

As far as they are concerned "lifetime" is lifetime of the warranty and then after that, its not their problem anymore. I definitely think its a method of making it appear cheaper to maintain, plus the additional revenue from repairs, trading in to a newer model is another incentive for them.

I have a 6MT and plan on changing my fluid soon along with rear diff.

right on the money. lease-and-forget, wash-and-repeat...

I personally find BMW's attitude and products more in line with the enthusiast, both in driving experience and maintenance. It shows very clearly from the communication Corbin received. But regardless, we're all here because we have Audis and care about the longevity of our cars, so we'll just (continue) to take anything the manufacturer says with a bucket of salt and continue with tried and true methods which have stayed consistent through the decades.