Dyno Day: APR Stage 2 (V3.x), EPL Stage 2 with Dual Pulleys/E85, and EPL Stage 1

[jran76]

I got together with two other local members today for some dyno runs (andthen and GRUMPY-S4 on here). We each made 3-4 passes on a Mustang dyno in various states of tune. Let me get this out of the way.... Dynos are a tool to use for tuning and logging. That's it. Please don't try to compare these results to results from any other dyno, or read too much into it. Just take them for what they are. Our 1/4 mile strip is closed, and more than anything we wanted to do some logging to see how everything is working right now. The dyno is a great place for that.

Here are some details on the dyno.
Location: PRT Performance in Lewisville, TX
Type: Mustang AWD Dyno
Conditions: 45 degrees F, 100% humidity. Corrections for conditions were used. Corrected numbers were considerably lower than actual due to the cool temps.

This Mustang dyno reads low by most people's standards. It's known as a heartbreaker locally. I've now dynoed on it several times including several different stock B8/B8.5 S4's, and it has always been amazingly consistent. Every single stock vehicle has dynoed in the 265-270 awhp range. For another point of reference, a new Dodge Charger SRT (392 Scat Pack) came by as we were finishing up, and dynoed at 347 whp/378 wtq (they are rated at 485hp/475tq). He was pretty heartbroken.... By all accounts, this dyno reads about 10% lower than the common DynoJets in the area.

Here is a link to the results from several other B8/B8.5 S4's that have dynoed on this same dyno: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...-Revo-2012-APR

OK, with the formalities out of the way, here are the results. I also logged all three cars. I'm not going to post the logs here because it brings up a lot of wannabe tuner conversations, but if you're truly interested in the logs, shoot me a PM, and I'll see if the owners are willing to share.

Grumpy's 2015 DSG. 93 octane map/93 octane gas mixed with E85 (maybe 30% ethanol). Thanks to EPL's flash at home setup, we were able to easily test the stock and stage 1 tunes.
Stock tune, APR DSG tune, APR intake (1/21/2016): 268 awhp / 283 awtq
EPL stage 1 tune, APR DSG tune, APR intake (1/21/2016): 337 awhp / 341 awtq


Comments: The stage 1 tune gained 69 awhp and 58 ft/lbs. If you're still driving an untuned car, you're missing out!!! We also only drove the car on the dyno for about 10 minutes to let the stage 1 tune adapt. It would have probably gained a little more power if it had more time to adapt, and if the car was a little cooler (temps were cold today, so heatsoak wasn't a huge issue as we kept an eye on coolant temps and IAT's).


jran76's 2012 DSG. 93 octane map/93 octane gas. The dyno graph is comparing today's runs with previous runs for October 2014.
APR stage 2 V2, AWE exhaust, CTS intake (10/11/2014): 349 awhp / 335 awtq
APR stage 2 V3, APR DSG tune, AWE exhaust, Alpha coolant system, ECS intake (1/21/2016): 383 awhp / 351 awtq

Comments: The new (V3.x) APR tune and DSG picked up 34 awhp and 16 ft/lbs. The coolant system was new, but it didn't play much of a role today due to the low temps. Obviously, I'm very happy with the changes.


andthen's 2012 DSG. E85 map/E85 gas mixed with a little 93 octane (maybe 70-80% ethanol).
EPL stage 2 for E85, APR DSG tune, Autotech HPFP upgrade, JHM overdrive crank pulley, Roc-Euro intake (1/21/2016): 414 awhp / 413 awtq
Comments: Holy torque monster. Here you rally see the gains from the second pulley with massive torque gains up top. and then has done some 1/8 mile passes that work out to mid-11 times, and this gives you a pretty idea why.


Just to compare, here is andthen's graph (red) overlaid on top of my graph (black). The big difference being the dual pulley setup (worth an extra 2-3 psi of boost), and E85 (worth an extra 4-5 degrees of timing).

[bhvrdr]

Nice job guys! I'm looking forward to throwing on an od cp. I'm sure some of that gain was the e85 but the cp had to be doing something too. Did you all do any logging?

Mike

[jl87]

Thanks for posting! I'm with bhvrdr and am curious how much of that 62/awtq difference is from E85 vs the second pulley.

[GRUMPY-S4]

The highlight of the day was the Face on the owner of the Charger when he saw 347HP... Heartbreaker indeed!!!!

[GRUMPY-S4]

Nice job guys! I'm looking forward to throwing on an od cp. I'm sure some of that gain was the e85 but the cp had to be doing something too. Did you all do any logging?

Mike

Yes we logged

[jran76]

Nice job guys! I'm looking forward to throwing on an od cp. I'm sure some of that gain was the e85 but the cp had to be doing something too. Did you all do any logging?

Mike

Yes, I logged all three except the stock runs on GRUMPY's car. I just took a quick look as they are still on my tablet and don't have time to get them off or to play around with them right this second.

The dual pulley helps a lot for sure. As I mentioned above, 2-3 psi of boost with the pulley. The E85 probably works out to 4-5 degrees of more timing being possible. andthen wasn't bypassing any boost with the latest EPL tune, and timing was hitting 25-27 degrees with no knock correction. He actually made a little more power with the timing in the 25 degree range as opposed to 27 degrees (I think- I'll have to look a little closer when I have time).

One other thing I found out was the B8.5, or at least the newer ones, have completely different logging fields and ID numbers in VCDS. When I tried to load my saved logging preferences on the 2015, they were completely jacked. So, I need to figure those out, and update my logging thread at some point.

[jran76]

The highlight of the day was the Face on the owner of the Charger when he saw 347HP... Heartbreaker indeed!!!!

Haha. He was. That and the fact he just saw an S4 put down 414 AWHP must have ruined his day.

[Brother Owl]

Nice jran! Great info - andthen's e85 tune is monster!

[boseephuss]

Wow, awesome job!

[andthen]

Thanks for putting this write up together, jran76. It was a fun day!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bhvrdr]

Will the bpv stay shut all the time on the dual pulley car?

[pdqgp]

Great information and details!

I personally like Mustang Dyno's. More realistic IMO. I've heard it described that Dynojets show power to the wheels but Mustang dyno's show power to the street which is really what we're looking for anyway.

What's the deal with a dual-pulley? I've heard that talked about here but not read up on it. How's it different than my set up (see sig)

[Dudemans4]

Was the Apr car on race gas or 93 file

[jran76]

Will the bpv stay shut all the time on the dual pulley car?

Mike, the bypass stayed closed the entire time on the dyno. Keeping it shut with the dual pulley doesn't seem to be a huge problem as EPL and APR both seem to have that down at this point. I do know it's been a bit of struggle to get it to stay closed all the time with the dual pulley and E85 as it seems like the car is pushing the limits in terms of fueling even with the upgraded pump.

Great information and details!

I personally like Mustang Dyno's. More realistic IMO. I've heard it described that Dynojets show power to the wheels but Mustang dyno's show power to the street which is really what we're looking for anyway.

What's the deal with a dual-pulley? I've heard that talked about here but not read up on it. How's it different than my set up (see sig)

It's an oversized crank pulley. The smaller S/C pulley is about 9-10% smaller than stock, and the oversized crank pulley is 9-10% larger than stock. So, with both, you are essentially spinning the S/C almost 20% faster/more boost. You can really see the torque it creates down low where the S/C can really use the extra air/pressure. You can also see the gains up top start to dye off because the S/C is pretty much maxed out. That's my biggest take away from the dual pulley dyno....

Was the Apr car on race gas or 93 file

93 octane gas and tune.

[bhvrdr]

edited.

[4RCFED]

Great work guys! SOLD on E85, damn that's some power.

[colby7]

EPL owning APR with an E85 map.

[DBL R]

Good stuff Jran.

I dont want to be negative but it's a little disappointing to see the trend on the S4 forum that some of the big tuners seem to be rushing out tunes only to come out with "revisions" later on that give the power they should have been giving all along.

I appreciate that you picked up 25whp or so (taking the added redline out of the equation from the DSG tune) from the update but that means you were down 25whp up until this point which is not much more than stage 1 power you were making. Its not as though some new technology came out that allowed them to extract the extra 25whp. Again, not to pick on a particular tuner but the same thing was shown in this dyno day with the GIAC stage 2 stuff...

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...-Revo-2012-APR


I dont mean to bash on the tuners but they are taking 2 grand a pop for these tunes and pretty much not perfecting them until they get called out with poor 1/4 mile or independent dyno results. I pay my tuner 200 bucks for a custom tune and he works on it until it is spot on. I dont get how some of our tuners who know all they have to do is get a single tune right for a each model year of each car and they cant do that. They did this with the 2014 and 2015 MY cars by apparently pushing out the same files as were on the 2013 MY cars only to find out they were making crap for power and actually needed to be ...hmmm...here's an idea....tuned for the changes on those model year cars. So they get a 2014 or 2015 car in there and now all the sudden there is a revision that works like it should have. It's just a bit disappointing. I'll stop ranting.

Mike

I don't mean to discourage further exploration of power from this platform, and I applaud the attempts of major tuners for giving average joes a tuning option....but Coming from an evo X and paying $300 for a custom tune, I got flamed when I first said off the shelf tunes for 2k are asinine. I understand there is a smaller demand for tunes for these vehicles, but come on. Good to see I'm not the only one biting my tongue...

[bhvrdr]

I don't mean to discourage further exploration of power from this platform, and I applaud the attempts of major tuners for giving average joes a tuning option....but Coming from an evo X and paying $300 for a custom tune, I got flamed when I first said off the shelf tunes for 2k are asinine. I understand there is a smaller demand for tunes for these vehicles, but come on. Good to see I'm not the only one biting my tongue...

Yeah, I probably shouldnt have made my post above. I really dont want to come off as negative and I do applaud our talented tuners for making revisions to get more power but it's also a little sad that they didnt seem to mind taking hand over fist profitability on a tune for the better part of a year that was nowhere near optimized for power. Oh well.

Mike

[jran76]

Good stuff Jran.

I dont want to be negative but it's a little disappointing to see the trend on the S4 forum that some of the big tuners seem to be rushing out tunes only to come out with "revisions" later on that give the power they should have been giving all along.

I appreciate that you picked up 25whp or so (taking the added redline out of the equation from the DSG tune) from the update but that means you were down 25whp up until this point which is not much more than stage 1 power you were making. Its not as though some new technology came out that allowed them to extract the extra 25whp. Again, not to pick on a particular tuner but the same thing was shown in this dyno day with the GIAC stage 2 stuff...

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...-Revo-2012-APR


I dont mean to bash on the tuners but they are taking 2 grand a pop for these tunes and pretty much not perfecting them until they get called out with poor 1/4 mile or independent dyno results. I pay my tuner 200 bucks for a custom tune and he works on it until it is spot on. I dont get how some of our tuners who know all they have to do is get a single tune right for a each model year of each car and they cant do that. They did this with the 2014 and 2015 MY cars by apparently pushing out the same files as were on the 2013 MY cars only to find out they were making crap for power and actually needed to be ...hmmm...here's an idea....tuned for the changes on those model year cars. So they get a 2014 or 2015 car in there and now all the sudden there is a revision that works like it should have. It's just a bit disappointing. I'll stop ranting.

Mike

I get what you are saying, and agree with the premise. With that said, I think that's something we are stuck with when you are using off-the-shelf tunes. There are a lot of factors that are hard to account for, so I think in absence of all possible scenarios, tuners have to err on the side of caution to a certain degree. Not defending it or saying it's right, but until we have more versatile tuning options, it's what we have. And you get issues like what you see in those GIAC dynos where the existing tunes obviously didn't work on the newer cars (I know you found this out too when you tried the APR tune that obviously wasn't working right).

From my own personal experience in supporting software applications, I also look at this from a real world scenario. It literally took us 10-15 revisions to get complex systems software right. There were just so many variables that you couldn't account for when it comes to complex controls of multiple systems that have to interact with each other and outside forces. You can test every possible scenario you can think of, but once it's spread out across multiple end users, there are different things you just can't account for ahead of time. I've tuned probably 10 vehicles now, and I don't think it was completely right the first time no matter how it was done- custom tuning, stand-alones, piggybacks, flashes, off-the-shelf, whatever.... I mean the Chipwerkes is probably the most basic tuning device in existence, and how many revisions have you been through?

With that said, I did change a lot of things. I attribute a lot of the gains to the tunes, but I did add the coolant system and a different intake. I also replaced the central muffler on my exhaust because it had come apart. I don't know how much of an impact that had either, and the dynos were a year apart in different conditions. Probably too many changes for me to say the gains came strictly from the tunes. No doubt it helped a lot, but I should have been more clear.

[bhvrdr]

I get what you are saying, and agree with the premise. With that said, I think that's something we are stuck with when you are using off-the-shelf tunes. There are a lot of factors that are hard to account for, so I think in absence of all possible scenarios, tuners have to err on the side of caution to a certain degree. Not defending it or saying it's right, but until we have more versatile tuning options, it's what we have. And you get issues like what you see in those GIAC dynos where the existing tunes obviously didn't work on the newer cars (I know you found this out too when you tried the APR tune that obviously wasn't working right).

From my own personal experience in supporting software applications, I also look at this from a real world scenario. It literally took us 10-15 revisions to get complex systems software right. There were just so many variables that you couldn't account for when it comes to complex controls of multiple systems that have to interact with each other and outside forces. You can test every possible scenario you can think of, but once it's spread out across multiple end users, there are different things you just can't account for ahead of time. I've tuned probably 10 vehicles now, and I don't think it was completely right the first time no matter how it was done- custom tuning, stand-alones, piggybacks, flashes, off-the-shelf, whatever.... I mean the Chipwerkes is probably the most basic tuning device in existence, and how many revisions have you been through?

With that said, I did change a lot of things. I attribute a lot of the gains to the tunes, but I did add the coolant system and a different intake. I also replaced the central muffler on my exhaust because it had come apart. I don't know how much of an impact that had either, and the dynos were a year apart in different conditions. Probably too many changes for me to say the gains came strictly from the tunes. No doubt it helped a lot, but I should have been more clear.

You make a very valid point and I appreciate that. I dont want to muddy up this awesome thread with my slight disappointment with a couple tunes so apologies if I have detracted from it. It really isnt relevant, but as an FYI, i was on the original CW S box that was sent to me in APR 2015 all the way until I just asked for the stage 2 update file. He came out with an "updated" map for the pro box that I tried but I ended up sending it back. I've actually always stuck with my original box and map all the way until now with the pulley map. Again, not really relevant though since I would tend to agree that the CW is more about just how damn good our factory ECU is at making power through adaptation than any technological advancement the CW would be (its not, lol).

Mike

[jran76]

EPL owning APR with an E85 map.

As one of probably 2-3 people that have seen the logs and data from both the EPL and APR cars with the dual pulleys and E85, and I think I can safely say the APR E85 and dual pulley tune will look great whenever it is released. If you want to take the dynos charts as EPL owning APR that's great, but not really what this is about. Kudos to EPL/andthen for getting this out for sure, but my APR setup is completely different than what andthen is running. I feel pretty safe in saying that if you strapped Ron's (Primetime) car to the same dyno, it would look really similar to andthen's.

[mrmomo313]

Good stuff guys. Thanks for doing this and making the thread Jran.

Wish you wouldve ran race gas and the 104 map to compare with andthen's car.. Still very solid gain over the old 93 apr tune. Curious, you plan on going dual pulley?

[pdqgp]

It's an oversized crank pulley. The smaller S/C pulley is about 9-10% smaller than stock, and the oversized crank pulley is 9-10% larger than stock. So, with both, you are essentially spinning the S/C almost 20% faster/more boost. You can really see the torque it creates down low where the S/C can really use the extra air/pressure. You can also see the gains up top start to dye off because the S/C is pretty much maxed out. That's my biggest take away from the dual pulley dyno.....

Gotcha. Would be interested in APR support of such a bump though. Sounds more like an EPL thing?

[GRUMPY-S4]

Gotcha. Would be interested in APR support of such a bump though. Sounds more like an EPL thing?

APR is working on their version of the dual pulley tune

[jran76]

You make a very valid point and I appreciate that. I dont want to muddy up this awesome thread with my slight disappointment with a couple tunes so apologies if I have detracted from it. It really isnt relevant, but as an FYI, i was on the original CW S box that was sent to me in APR 2015 all the way until I just asked for the stage 2 update file. He came out with an "updated" map for the pro box that I tried but I ended up sending it back. I've actually always stuck with my original box and map all the way until now with the pulley map. Again, not really relevant though since I would tend to agree that the CW is more about just how damn good our factory ECU is at making power through adaptation than any technological advancement the CW would be (its not, lol).

Mike

If I was a 2014-15 owner than got stuck with one of the lemon tunes, and no acknowledgment from the tuners that there was an issue, I'd probably feel the same way. I understand the Chipwerkes worked great for you up until you adding the pulley, but either way, they have been through a lot of tweaks and revisions. I just think it's the nature of the beast.

I fully admit I'm completely jaded by my personal experience of what felt like hundreds of releases to get something right (I was the guy that had to deal with EVERY technical problem my company had). I honestly feel like two APR releases to get to where I am is great; or at least understandable. I didn't have any real issues with the previous tune, so it's a lot easier for me to accept what is only performance improvement in my case. To that point, I think the DSG tune needs a little tweak still, so I'm expecting that soon too.... Yes, it probably doesn't end.

[GRUMPY-S4]

The daily CW plug? Lol

A $200 tuner that will do a custom tune for our ECU?

[jran76]

Gotcha. Would be interested in APR support of such a bump though. Sounds more like an EPL thing?

APR is working on their version of the dual pulley tune

I have no affiliation with APR, so take this for what you want, but I think they are working (and close) on both E85 and the dual pulley tune. How exactly it all plays out, I don't know. What I've seen looks really good.

[pdqgp]

I honestly feel like two APR releases to get to where I am is great; or at least understandable. I didn't have any real issues with the previous tune, so it's a lot easier for me to accept what is only performance improvement in my case. To that point, I think the DSG tune needs a little tweak still, so I'm expecting that soon too.... Yes, it probably doesn't end.

^^ this. I luckily have only ever had APR's V3.x Stage 2 and it's been great. The DSG Tune is great also and the ONLY tweak that I feel is needed is that in manual mode IF I miss the shift to second and the car shifts on it's own, it will short-shift the 2nd to 3rd gear. Otherwise, it shifts at full new redlines as they note without issue.

Looking forward to what they do to upgrade the tunes from here. I however am more interested in the reliability of what I have which is why I went with APR.

[GRUMPY-S4]

Mile didnt the CW have God knows how many "revisions"?

[jran76]

Good stuff guys. Thanks for doing this and making the thread Jran.

Wish you wouldve ran race gas and the 104 map to compare with andthen's car.. Still very solid gain over the old 93 apr tune. Curious, you plan on going dual pulley?

If I had access to it, I would have done a race gas pull. If I can track some down, I may go back again sometime soon. This dyno is close by, and I've used it several times now. The shop owner is super helpful and accommodating. The only place I can easily get race gas is the drag strip, and we'll both make it out there in the next few months for sure. I'll take that over the dyno anyway.

I'm undecided on the dual pulley. If I decide that I'm going to keep the car for a long time, I might go that route. I use the drag strip and dyno more just to log and understand what is going on with the car. I think it's awesome what you, Ron, Jeff, and andthen do to push the platform, but I'm not really out to set any records. I know that sounds kinda stupid, but my plan was never to do everything I possibly can to the car (I do have to talk my self out of things like the dual pulley, E85, and W/M on a regular basis, so....).

[bhvrdr]

The daily CW plug? Lol

A $200 tuner that will do a custom tune for our ECU?

Lets not clog up this thread. If you look at my original post (it has been quoted) you'll notice I never brought up anything that is on my car at all. It has been brought up by 2 other people now, but not me.

$200 custom tunes for one of my other cars. I was not referring to this one.

Mile didnt the CW have God knows how many "revisions"?

Again, lets not clog up this thread. The answer is no. I have been on the original S box file until I added my pulley. There was 1 single revision to the Pro box. Some liked it, some didnt. I never did decide to keep that revised file. Whatever. Now I have a map that works with a pulley. I specifically requested a pulley map which was not in existence. Without him ever seeing my car he sent me three different maps to try and I picked the one I liked best. That was that. But again, lets not make this thread about CW. It seems you have plugged it not me, lol :)

Mike

[Usa]

jran76 needs an od cp and a re-dyno... you know for science and stuff... and to determine if I want one :)

[ptper]

Jran - just curious, have you ever gotten a 1/4 mile time with your APR 93 tune? If you have and I missed it, my apologies. Also, thanks for making this posting! I also agree you can't read too much into dynos. I remember when I took mine in after I got flashed and it came out to like 330 whp. lol. Talk about heartbreak, it was more like wtf giac! Anyways, I calmed down after hitting the strip. at the time, i didn't understand that different dynos have different setups/calibrations and can be a crapshoot from shop to shop. In any case, it's good to see APR v.3, and now EPL is putting down some serious power!

[jsh139]

Very nice. Thanks for organizing and posting this. Very curious to see Grumpy's numbers once he goes stage 2!

[mrmomo313]

If I had access to it, I would have done a race gas pull. If I can track some down, I may go back again sometime soon. This dyno is close by, and I've used it several times now. The shop owner is super helpful and accommodating. The only place I can easily get race gas is the drag strip, and we'll both make it out there in the next few months for sure. I'll take that over the dyno anyway.

I'm undecided on the dual pulley. If I decide that I'm going to keep the car for a long time, I might go that route. I use the drag strip and dyno more just to log and understand what is going on with the car. I think it's awesome what you, Ron, Jeff, and andthen do to push the platform, but I'm not really out to set any records. I know that sounds kinda stupid, but my plan was never to do everything I possibly can to the car (I do have to talk my self out of things like the dual pulley, E85, and W/M on a regular basis, so....).

Would be cool to see what you're making on the 104 map if you happen to find the time. I know how it is with race fuel.. I'm a bit tired of sourcing it myself. Don't know if I'll go e85 or W/M because I'm concerned with gen 1 dsg reliability. May part out the car and sell this summer. Certainly would consider those routes if I'm in it for the long run

Also credit goes to you for all your contributions to this platform. I've learned quite a bit about these cars from your posts both here and on AR

I've read most of your old threads and I know you like to test parts.. Your car is pretty much maxed out as it is lol. Not sure where you are in terms of mileage but you know those crank pulleys are weak , would be great preventative maintenance! I didn't set out to break any records but seeing Ron and Jeff's car made me want to see if my car could run similar times. I will say it made me fall in love with the car all over again so if there was one of those potential mods to seriously consider, it's the crank pulley for sure.

[ntsantos]

Damn...now I gotta get my lazy ass to install the OD pulley sitting in my living room.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[Hofahome]

Thank you guys for taking the time and posting some good comparative info. I have the autotech HPFP and JHM stg4 clutch but just waiting for spring to have it installed, so I will be going E85 soon. But now I want the OD pulley (need more oxygen here at altitude), which means I probably need to upgrade the damn cooling system, right?

[waxxonMTL]

As one of probably 2-3 people that have seen the logs and data from both the EPL and APR cars with the dual pulleys and E85, and I think I can safely say the APR E85 and dual pulley tune will look great whenever it is released. If you want to take the dynos charts as EPL owning APR that's great, but not really what this is about. Kudos to EPL/andthen for getting this out for sure, but my APR setup is completely different than what andthen is running. I feel pretty safe in saying that if you strapped Ron's (Primetime) car to the same dyno, it would look really similar to andthen's.

you bring an interesting point. how do you feel is the apr tune vs the EPL in term of smoothness and daily driving ? of course, one car produce 50tq more so cant compare the rush of acceleration but how about shifting point and such in Drive ?

[andthen]

Thank you guys for taking the time and posting some good comparative info. I have the autotech HPFP and JHM stg4 clutch but just waiting for spring to have it installed, so I will be going E85 soon. But now I want the OD pulley (need more oxygen here at altitude), which means I probably need to upgrade the damn cooling system, right?

The cooling system is almost a must IMO. It's been cool here and before I got mine the IAT would go up and stay up, for a while. Now it still goes up, but it not only cools down way faster, it cools down lower than without it. Hope that makes sense.