Mechanic says I need an engine pull

[bmwpower603]

These codes came up after getting in an accident.17936 - Camshaft Timing Adj. Bank1 and 17944 - Camshaft Timing Adj. Bank2( big piece of ice hit my windshield ) No rattle or noises. Just a 2 second start up rattle. No misfires.

My mechanic said the engine needs to be pulled to see what needs to be fixed. COULD the accident have caused these codes?

My insurance adjuster said they will not pay to have the engine pulled. How does my audi mechanic NOT know the exact problem without removing the engine?

Is this work fixing. I need opinions. Should I go all out on a timing kit? Or just get JHM adjusters if that is the issue?

Vehicle info:
2004 s4 150k 6 speed
Clutch and flywheel done 1k ago

[rollerton]

These codes came up after getting in an accident.17936 - Camshaft Timing Adj. Bank1 and 17944 - Camshaft Timing Adj. Bank2( big piece of ice hit my windshield ) No rattle or noises. Just a 2 second start up rattle. No misfires.

No rattle or noises. Just a rattle?


That 2 second start up rattle is coming from somewhere.
Ice hitting your windshield didn't cause your chain guides to wear...so...I mean it did go 150k. Not bad, ...not bad. You could get a second opinion, but it's a relatively well known issue.

[Ob3R]

Better to just go with a whole kit while the engine is out therefore you wouldnt have to do it again. JHM sells a kit of adjusters where you just replace the sprocket. The price of the repair kit for both is the cost of ONE oem adjuster itself. JHM makes the sprocket out of harder metal therefore it should hold out longer. And like I mentioned just replace the plastic pieces/tensioners while youre at it as well just to be one the safe side. The nice thing is, you'll drive that car into the ground after that's done. I remember when I got my first one and had to do timing and adjusters, many people were clueless about fixing it, now though, lots more people know, and are willing to help. They also don't charge as much as they used to.
I think it's worth it, but thats only because I love the B6/B7 V8 engines and believe they are great DD cars worth having.
If you plan on keeping it as a DD or whatnot, it should be worth fixing.

[bmwpower603]

Yes. Just 2 second rattle when I start it. I thought that was part of regular operation.

Should I do the chains ? And also, should I do the electric adjusters? Or just mechanical adjusters and guides? There are so many kits on the jhm website.

[rollerton]

Yes. Just 2 second rattle when I start it. I thought that was part of regular operation.

Should I do the chains ? And also, should I do the electric adjusters? Or just mechanical adjusters and guides? There are so many kits on the jhm website.

The way I understand it, it could rattle a little on startup and mean nothing. And it could be destroying the the cylinder bores. Which is it? How will you know without removing the engine and having the work done? I think normally they don't need to rattle on startup, but THAT rattle is a main symptom of the chain guide problem.
And if you do ANY of it, obviously you do it all. And I'm far from an expert but typically unless you have a special purpose or lots of mods the updated OEM kit fixes the problem ...permenently?

[bmwpower603]

So you think it's a guide wear issue. No misfires so cylinders are good. I do have loss of power. And I told my mechanic that. He seems to really think it skipped timing..

[VinnysS4]

It may have skipped a tooth, but the ice didn't cause it man. A boulder could have hit it and I don't think it would have broken the camshaft adjuster unless it actually went through the hood. Pull the engine, do the timing. Enjoy for another 100k

[dsgray16]

I would it's a coincidence, and really you should be thankful the car made it this long without a major timing service. Hopefully when they pull everything apart, that's all that will need to be done. But yeah with labor and parts, you could be looking at up to $5k

[bmwpower603]

Yes. My mechanic said $2000.00 for adjusters, guides, chains, tensioners. (Labor only) extra $500-800 for valve seals and head gasket

What else could it possibly need when they pull it apart? No codes for misfires. ..

[bmwpower603]

And I guess the ONLY real question remaining is..

DO I get the JHM Kit that includes the electronic cam adjusters?

[TEB]

That is entirely your call as to how much you are willing to spend to further reduce the risk of a future tear down. I'm not planning on replacing mine, but I'm doing the labor myself, not paying a shop.

[bmwpower603]

Are you going to do head gasket + valve seals on your s4?

[Ob3R]

Do the gaskets and valve seals for sure.

[VinnysS4]

Might as well do any and all seals/gaskets while the engine is out. Once you put it in, some of them are impossible to do without lowering the engine a bunch or removing it entirely (exhaust gaskets for example)

[SlickFix]

You're a lucky man to not have this thing grenade on you until 150k miles.

There are many schools of thought on what to replace when the engine's out. Only you can determine if it's worth the peace of mind to have them replace the electrical adjusters, too. When I pulled the engine on my old B6 S4, my timing guide was already cracked at 109k miles, and I decided to NOT pay the extra money for the electrical adjusters.

The longer you plan on keeping the car, the more parts you should seriously consider replacing.

[bmwpower603]

I just put valve covers in 2k ago, should I still get new ones?

Replace starter?

I am thinking I should replace electronic adusters. But it's 1600 more. Do these really fail? Or should I just get the guide that goes on it?

[VinnysS4]

Don't quote me on this, but if i'm not mistaken, you can change the Electronic adjusters without pulling the engine. I would personally wait on them until they fail. They do fail, but it is much less likely to happen then other parts. I wouldn't bother with the valve cover gaskets if you don't have to pull them. Once you torque them down and remove them later, its a good idea to change the gaskets. My suggestion is yes, change them again. MUCH easier after the engine is out, and they are cheap. Starter....sure. If you believe it needs it. Might save you some money in the long run if it does fail and you have to pay the labor to take it out and replace it.

[bmwpower603]

I keep running into new things to do while the engine is out. This is getting rediculous.

My mechanic said he can only do ONE electronic adjuster without pulling the engine. So I might just do them. The ones on JHM are updated also. Not sure if that makes a difference.

[VinnysS4]

Now is the time for headers haha. Cha ching

[bmwpower603]

SSAC header pipes. $600.00 shipped. Thats probably what I'm going to do.

http://www.ssautochrome.com/level.itml/icOid/2341

[VinnysS4]

hmm....they sell the cheap JHM knockoff XS headers....are these the same quality? if so i'd run...

[bmwpower603]

Yes. I am thinking they are the same quality. But should I actually replace them? Or just keep the stock ones?! Or are they most likely rusted?

[Quadfreak]

Yes. I am thinking they are the same quality. But should I actually replace them? Or just keep the stock ones?! Or are they most likely rusted?

Those are a really shitty knock-off. They are 1/4 the price of the JHM ones...they're not even in the same ballpark quality wise. They don't fit right, the long tubes are not equal length, and you're probably not gonna see any gains over stock. Either stay stock or go JHM, but don't waste your time with those. There are a bunch of threads out there about these.

[dsgray16]

Yes. I am thinking they are the same quality. But should I actually replace them? Or just keep the stock ones?! Or are they most likely rusted?

Really? same quality?

Good luck

[JimmyBones]

Those are a really shitty knock-off. They are 1/4 the price of the JHM ones...they're not even in the same ballpark quality wise. They don't fit right, the long tubes are not equal length, and you're probably not gonna see any gains over stock. Either stay stock or go JHM, but don't waste your time with those. There are a bunch of threads out there about these.

This!

bmwpower603, if you want to not spend much then piggie your downpipes. Or better still get high flow downpipes like the Fast Intentions catless downpipes. Either option isn't that terribly expensive and both options with provide more power than the cheap knock off parts.

[bmwpower603]

Ok. Thank you. I will keep my stock headers and just get piggies. My mechanic is doing a compression test, and scoping my cylinder walls this week. Before he removes the engine. Just to make sure this will all be worth it.

I probably burned about 1q of oil every 2-3k.

[nick447]

If the engine is out, I would consider doing the clutch if you haven't done it already.

[bmwpower603]

Clutch, flywheel, and slave cylinder were done 2k ago.. Someone had mentioned possibly replacing the starter.

I had my mechanic do a compression test before pulling the engine to make sure it's good. Here's the results:
1-185
2-180
3-190
4-195
5-185
6-200
7-190
8-190

[bmwpower603]

This!

bmwpower603, if you want to not spend much then piggie your downpipes. Or better still get high flow downpipes like the Fast Intentions catless downpipes. Either option isn't that terribly expensive and both options with provide more power than the cheap knock off parts.

My friend who worked at BMW for 12 years looked at it today scanned it. Drove it. He cam to the conclusion of it just being the Mechanical adjusters. He said he is able to do that WITHOUT and engine pull!!

The car has full power until the check engine light comes on. The it loses power, or skips..

So i just need to order the JHM adjusters, and he is going to look inside and see which guides/ tensioners are accessible. And also, look for plastic.. or broken guides. ( Car idles perfect, No chain slap)

SO glad didn't have to pay for engine pull!!!

[icanfly]

You're not going to resolve a critical known issue which is the lower plastic guide that is the weakness in the system. Not doing this while doing the other adjusters is just asking for the "cheap route" to blow up in your face ina short period of time. That 2k to pull the motor and replace all the parts is the cost of your piece of mind and KNOWING that you're not going to have a timing issue. With 150k on your car... you're asking for it... this is the one and only thing I'd advise any and every owner to think about. Balance the cost of a new motor against that 'small' investment.

you'd sure feel crappy if you did all that work, only to have it go on you just a short while down the road...

just my .02 to another owner.

[924Carrera]

I still find it odd that the mechanical adjusters failing would throw two OPEN CIRCUIT - INTERMITTENT codes for the electrical adjusters. That to me points to an electrical issue, and of course the car would act up when that code pops up if there is an intermittent loss of continuity causing the adjusters to stop working. Obviously I am not your mechanic and haven't seen your car, but that just sounds fishy to me.

[JimmyBones]

My friend who worked at BMW for 12 years looked at it today scanned it. Drove it. He cam to the conclusion of it just being the Mechanical adjusters. He said he is able to do that WITHOUT and engine pull!!

The car has full power until the check engine light comes on. The it loses power, or skips..

So i just need to order the JHM adjusters, and he is going to look inside and see which guides/ tensioners are accessible. And also, look for plastic.. or broken guides. ( Car idles perfect, No chain slap)

SO glad didn't have to pay for engine pull!!!

Good luck! I have more to say about this though farther down.

You're not going to resolve a critical known issue which is the lower plastic guide that is the weakness in the system. Not doing this while doing the other adjusters is just asking for the "cheap route" to blow up in your face ina short period of time. That 2k to pull the motor and replace all the parts is the cost of your piece of mind and KNOWING that you're not going to have a timing issue. With 150k on your car... you're asking for it... this is the one and only thing I'd advise any and every owner to think about. Balance the cost of a new motor against that 'small' investment.

you'd sure feel crappy if you did all that work, only to have it go on you just a short while down the road...

just my .02 to another owner.

You make a good point. bmwpower603 has admitted that he got a project car with high miles so there is a chance that the lower guide is broken. When his guy opens up the top end to rebuild the mechanical camshaft adjusters it would be very important to see how far out of time the driver's side camshafts are. If they are out of time then the lower left guide (that always breaks) is broken and needs to be replaced.

[bmwpower603]

I still find it odd that the mechanical adjusters failing would throw two OPEN CIRCUIT - INTERMITTENT codes for the electrical adjusters. That to me points to an electrical issue, and of course the car would act up when that code pops up if there is an intermittent loss of continuity causing the adjusters to stop working. Obviously I am not your mechanic and haven't seen your car, but that just sounds fishy to me.

I'm not worried about the guides. It has already had chains and guides replaced.

As for the fault codes. My mechanic looked into it while I was driving to see the adjusters reacting. "He said they could be stuck"

[924Carrera]

Well he could be right. It just seems surprising that both would pop up simultaneously. Although the mechanical adjusters failing is certainly common, both failing at the same time is far less likely. Also, I speak from the experience of having both of those codes, and one of my adjusters is brand new (I wish the shop I had bought it from had done both, but the one they didn't replace was completely fine, which is often the case with these). I do know, however, that the harness that supplies these is totally wasted on my car, and I'm going to either have to replace it for ~$1000 or patch it up, which I'm going to try first. The insulation is flaking off the wires and I'm certain that at least some of my weird electrical codes that all pop up at the same time (without even setting off the CEL) have to do with that. I'm just trying to come up with some ideas for your sake so you don't perform an expensive job that doesn't even fix the issue. Or, maybe it really is that.

[bmwpower603]

Well he could be right. It just seems surprising that both would pop up simultaneously. Although the mechanical adjusters failing is certainly common, both failing at the same time is far less likely. Also, I speak from the experience of having both of those codes, and one of my adjusters is brand new (I wish the shop I had bought it from had done both, but the one they didn't replace was completely fine, which is often the case with these). I do know, however, that the harness that supplies these is totally wasted on my car, and I'm going to either have to replace it for ~$1000 or patch it up, which I'm going to try first. The insulation is flaking off the wires and I'm certain that at least some of my weird electrical codes that all pop up at the same time (without even setting off the CEL) have to do with that. I'm just trying to come up with some ideas for your sake so you don't perform an expensive job that doesn't even fix the issue. Or, maybe it really is that.

Well I know my friend will probably charge around $500 labor to do both mechanical adjusters. If the CEL returns. An engine pull, and timing refresh will be required. My mechanic said it wouldn't idle perfect, and sound so good if had a snapped guide.

And he has worked on new BMW M5's, M4's, and countless numbers of cars that have chain issues. He's taking the valve covers off tomorrow. I'll keep updating as I get more info!

[bmwpower603]

Thank you for the suggestions everyone!

[bmwpower603]

Good luck! I have more to say about this though farther down.



You make a good point. bmwpower603 has admitted that he got a project car with high miles so there is a chance that the lower guide is broken. When his guy opens up the top end to rebuild the mechanical camshaft adjusters it would be very important to see how far out of time the driver's side camshafts are. If they are out of time then the lower left guide (that always breaks) is broken and needs to be replaced.

Good news. My mechanic took off the valve covers, and is about to remove the mechanical adjusters. He said the guides, and chains look MINT. Chains look like they have been done, along with the guides. The cam shafts are NOT out of time at all.

Can someone tell me if my friend needs the tool that JHM sells to remove the adjursters?

I will post pics of the worn adjusters once they are out!!

[bmwpower603]

It may have skipped a tooth, but the ice didn't cause it man. A boulder could have hit it and I don't think it would have broken the camshaft adjuster unless it actually went through the hood. Pull the engine, do the timing. Enjoy for another 100k

Apparently engine pull was not needed. But the mechanic who suggested engine pull didn't look into it much.
But my good friend who worked for BMW 12 years says he can pull the adjusters with the engine in!! I just ordered cam tools, and adjusters !!

[VinnysS4]

good luck!

[bmwpower603]

good luck!

Thanks!! I'm sure it's not going to be fun for him to take those timing covers off. But he's got the correct tools