understeering like a beast

[nunzo]

i've noticed this recently and wanted to know if anyone else is having the same experience.

running the following relevant modifications:
- michelin pilot sport a/s 3
- kw h.a.s.
- 034 chassis/tranny/diff mounts
- epl stage 2/ecs intake/stasis competition for power mods
- ADS lite with steering in dynamic

1. the steering feels looser than i would have thought with the 034 brace and dynamic mode
2. temps are in the mid20's-30s, with some light snow recently (not today though)
3. tires are slipping and pushing into tight turns at low-moderate speeds

common sense to me would point to the tires not being to temp, but these are supposed to be good while cold.

any thoughts?

[SteveYem]

This is a non sport diff car, correct?
My first thought was also the A/S tires which as you know are not ideal for cold weather driving. Did any of your suspension setup change around the same time that you started noticing the car pushing through turns, or does it seem to be directly related to the cold weather?

[The Fat Kid]

I would guess it is the Michelins losing traction; they don't do well in the white stuff. I am pretty sure one of the people who recently wrecked on snow/ice was wearing the same tires.

[MrFunk]

Those tires are not good in snow... and prob not great in the very cold even which is why they are pushing....
Be careful on em... a couple other members have busted up their cars sliding on those very same tires...
Here are just 3... I would not run those tires in the winter...

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...he-thing-to-do
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...d-my-S4-today-
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...Other-Problems

[SilverRings]

Tires in start to loose grip around the 50 degree mark (each compound reacts differently to cold). Generally below 50 degrees outside, and they start to loose grip as the rubber hardens. It gets worse the colder it gets.

[SteveYem]

I noticed on my B8 (non sport diff) when running summer tires in colder temps (like in the week or so before switching to winter tires) that the car would push more in corners and seemed to "skip" out on a tangent when hitting any kind of bump in a turn. The car had full Eurocode goodies - Alu Kruez, front+rear swaybars and endlinks - and my assertion is that the stiffened chassis transferred the brunt of the duty of lateral grip to the tires, which were below optimal operating temperature in this scenario. The car didn't want to tilt and the tires were too hard due to low ambient temperature to flex laterally, resulting in a loss of traction and the car wanting to push out of the turn on a tangent.

[eurotic]

I have WS-80s on my car and it will still push in a corner but I have no mods at all. However from your mod list I'm not sure any of those mods will increase grip at the front end in slippery conditions. This is a front heavy car. The key, for me anyway, is to be on throttle if you don't want to push through a corner, or at least turn your push into more of a 4 wheel drift. I really enjoy driving this car in slippery conditions as long as I don't enter a corner too fast because then it is push-city.

[nunzo]

This is a non sport diff car, correct?
My first thought was also the A/S tires which as you know are not ideal for cold weather driving. Did any of your suspension setup change around the same time that you started noticing the car pushing through turns, or does it seem to be directly related to the cold weather?

correct, non-sport diff car with ADS Lite activated. only the wheels and tires changed.

I would guess it is the Michelins losing traction; they don't do well in the white stuff. I am pretty sure one of the people who recently wrecked on snow/ice was wearing the same tires.

they've been doing OK in the light snow, i've noticed it moreso in the morning when it's cold

Those tires are not good in snow... and prob not great in the very cold even which is why they are pushing....
Be careful on em... a couple other members have busted up their cars sliding on those very same tires...
Here are just 3... I would not run those tires in the winter...

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...he-thing-to-do
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...d-my-S4-today-
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...Other-Problems

good looking out, thanks!

I noticed on my B8 (non sport diff) when running summer tires in colder temps (like in the week or so before switching to winter tires) that the car would push more in corners and seemed to "skip" out on a tangent when hitting any kind of bump in a turn. The car had full Eurocode goodies - Alu Kruez, front+rear swaybars and endlinks - and my assertion is that the stiffened chassis transferred the brunt of the duty of lateral grip to the tires, which were below optimal operating temperature in this scenario. The car didn't want to tilt and the tires were too hard due to low ambient temperature to flex laterally, resulting in a loss of traction and the car wanting to push out of the turn on a tangent.

exactly what i'm experiencing. guess I should stop procrastinating and get the Michelin Xice Xi3's in my garage mounted and on the car.

[SportVier]

...my assertion is that the stiffened chassis transferred the brunt of the duty of lateral grip to the tires...

I usually open the door a crack during hard cornering and drag my left foot to transfer some of the duty of lateral grip to my sneaker.

Seriously though, assuming you meant the front tires...?

[boro92]

Sounds like a combination of problems. Imo:

1) tire compound is not suited to the temps. We are talkimg about an a/s here. They work but you cant expect the same performance in 50 deg temps as you would in 65 deg temps.
2) sounds like you are entering the corner too hot. When the car is pushing, are you adding more steering angle, are u on or off the gas? Answers to this would address this aspect.


It is not pushing due to increased chassis stiffness up front. OP is going too slow to load the car enough for any of that chassis brace stuff to have any effect. It's probably a combo of driving style and tires.. ..though an alignment can address most of these issues

[anerbe]

Get proper winter rubber on your car and report back. PS AS3 is closer to a summer tire than even an A/S - nowhere close to a dedicated Winter tire.

Breakaway characteristics of A/S and Summer tires in the cold are completely different from warm. Typically, tires get more tractive forces when more load is applied to them, but that all goes out the window if the compound is not made to work in the cold temps.

[Pyromatic177]

I'm the guy that wrecked my S4 on those tires. Get winter dedicated tires. The A/S 3 sucks in winter conditions

[pdqgp]

Those tires are not good in snow... and prob not great in the very cold even which is why they are pushing....
Be careful on em... a couple other members have busted up their cars sliding on those very same tires...
Here are just 3... I would not run those tires in the winter...

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...he-thing-to-do
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...d-my-S4-today-
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...Other-Problems

^^ This. Had them on my last company car a Fusion Sport and they were not great in Ohio Winters. I made it through but it was dicey at times. I think they are best for the rare instance of cold temps and light snow in areas were it might not make sense for dedicated snows but in most areas that you get a real winter, I would not use them.

I'm very biased in terms of winter tires though. I have used dedicated snows on our family van and cars for decades and can say it's worth the investment. Michelin had the best slogan about tires - "everything is riding on your tires" something like that anyway.....and they are dead right. STOPPING in Snow on winter tires night and day vs. all season tires.

[SteveYem]

I usually open the door a crack during hard cornering and drag my left foot to transfer some of the duty of lateral grip to my sneaker.

Seriously though, assuming you meant the front tires...?

Yes, I was referring specifically to the front tires.

[SteveYem]

^^ This. Had them on my last company car a Fusion Sport and they were not great in Ohio Winters. I made it through but it was dicey at times. I think they are best for the rare instance of cold temps and light snow in areas were it might not make sense for dedicated snows but in most areas that you get a real winter, I would not use them.

I'm very biased in terms of winter tires though. I have used dedicated snows on our family van and cars for decades and can say it's worth the investment. Michelin had the best slogan about tires - "everything is riding on your tires" something like that anyway.....and they are dead right. STOPPING in Snow on winter tires night and day vs. all season tires.

Yep. Tires are the only part of the car that (should) actually touch the road, yet people cheap out on them commonly. I suspect it's because they are a wear item and nobody wants to spend more than they have to on a part that is designed to wear out.....but the reason they wear out so quickly is that they are the only part of the car in contact with the road!

[Moto One]

First off you are driving a hammer with all he weight out over the front axel. Second it's all wheel drive so every wheel is taking a different ark, and depending on how fast, and what wheels are getting power "it's going to push, aka understeer" Take a rear wheel drive car, put a locker diff in it and the rear wheels now want to make the car go straight..Physics. Then as noted there is drive input? How he balance the car entering the turn, how much steering input and them throttle input. Can all cause understeer. Back to driving an all-wheel drive with to stiff of a front bar/springs and guess what? Can all cause understeer. The facts look like you big problem is your just driving to hard for conditions an the Car so far has been saving your butt.

Mark

[nunzo]

Sounds like a combination of problems. Imo:

1) tire compound is not suited to the temps. We are talkimg about an a/s here. They work but you cant expect the same performance in 50 deg temps as you would in 65 deg temps.
2) sounds like you are entering the corner too hot. When the car is pushing, are you adding more steering angle, are u on or off the gas? Answers to this would address this aspect.


It is not pushing due to increased chassis stiffness up front. OP is going too slow to load the car enough for any of that chassis brace stuff to have any effect. It's probably a combo of driving style and tires.. ..though an alignment can address most of these issues

it's even while driving slow, so it's certainly not coming into corners too hot. i drive the same, monotonous route to work every day and i've never felt out of control with the previous summer setup (toyo proxes t1 sport)

First off you are driving a hammer with all he weight out over the front axel. Second it's all wheel drive so every wheel is taking a different ark, and depending on how fast, and what wheels are getting power "it's going to push, aka understeer" Take a rear wheel drive car, put a locker diff in it and the rear wheels now want to make the car go straight..Physics. Then as noted there is drive input? How he balance the car entering the turn, how much steering input and them throttle input. Can all cause understeer. Back to driving an all-wheel drive with to stiff of a front bar/springs and guess what? Can all cause understeer. The facts look like you big problem is your just driving to hard for conditions an the Car so far has been saving your butt.

Mark

as noted, we're talking u-turns, turning from a side road onto a main road, low speed on-ramps, etc. i'm not over-driving the awd.

snow tires are getting mounted this weekend. i'll report back if there's similar problems afterwards (which there shouldnt)

[Johnnycash]

its your tires.

and you can still get winter tires to do the same thing, just gonna have to push it harder...

[jimrobbington]

Yep. Tires are the only part of the car that (should) actually touch the road, yet people cheap out on them commonly. I suspect it's because they are a wear item and nobody wants to spend more than they have to on a part that is designed to wear out.....but the reason they wear out so quickly is that they are the only part of the car in contact with the road!

So true. People are idiots. I can't tell you how many dumb ass people in the denver area are somehow talked into buying studded tires in the city, when we may actually have enough ice/snow on the roads to need them 7 days in a year. Then they continue to drive around on them all year long. You can hear the tapping of idiots driving by in 90 degree weather with studded tires on. I'm sure they have great handling in the summer too. Lol

[vwblackb5]

Yep. Tires are the only part of the car that (should) actually touch the road, yet people cheap out on them commonly. I suspect it's because they are a wear item and nobody wants to spend more than they have to on a part that is designed to wear out.....but the reason they wear out so quickly is that they are the only part of the car in contact with the road!

It takes a while for common folks to have an epiphany or paradigm shift with tires. It usually takes a near death experience for them to change their mentality.

For us Enthusiast though, dedicated winters and max summers all day. I find myself kicking around the idea of replacing my new OEM 19 Conti's (2k miles on it) with Michelin Super Sports in preparation for summer

[nunzo]

installed 245-40-18 Michelin X-Ice Xi3's on 18x9 et45 fifteen52 turbomacs and what a difference.

[SteveYem]

installed 245-40-18 Michelin X-Ice Xi3's on 18x9 et45 fifteen52 turbomacs and what a difference.

Nice! Glad it is working out for you. I had a set of X-Ice's on my old STi and man, that thing was a beast in all winter weather conditions.

[blbroo]

I'm the guy that wrecked my S4 on those tires. Get winter dedicated tires. The A/S 3 sucks in winter conditions

Sucks could even be an understatement. You know how you see people walk out on the ice at hockey games and they are on the edge of falling down all the time? That's how these feel on snow. They refuse to turn above really low speeds.

[chris@fifteen52]

installed 245-40-18 Michelin X-Ice Xi3's on 18x9 et45 fifteen52 turbomacs and what a difference.

What no pics?