Alignment, Camber and Toe Questions

[SilverRings]

Ok guys, need some help here. Upon some research here at the forums, I've been able to read about different suspension drops and what was needed to correct alignment. Still have some questions for you.

I bought the car with KW Street Comfort Coilovers on it from the previous owner. It was adjusted to his liking and still is. I included a couple shots of the car for reference.

1. Can you tell me an estimated inch drop that this may be for an S4? (19 inch wheels and 255/35 for reference).

I am getting some crazy wear on the inside front tires, it almost seems like a toe issue, it's pretty bad.

With my setup, can toe be completely corrected on the car? I know that camber is not correctable, but guys with the OE springs are right at max camber specs.

2. How does my drop relate to OE springs drop? How close in height do you think it is? Am I farther down or just about the same?

3. Do you think I need adjustable Control Arms to correct any of this, or do I just have to bit the bullet and get an alignment before I know anything?

With new tires needed soon, am I doing things correctly and getting the alignment and correction done now, so that I am ready to go when it's new tire time?

Would having my car raised about 1/2 inch, while they align, help out with any of this?

Thanks for you help.

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[cspcrx]

Front camber does not look that radical so i believe your determination of toe, specifically toe out, to be correct.

[RyanJon]

First thing to do is go for full alignment, if it can't be brought into spec then start looking into fixing things but Your car doesn't look stupidly low. Does it track straight and true?

[SilverRings]

First thing to do is go for full alignment, if it can't be brought into spec then start looking into fixing things but Your car doesn't look stupidly low. Does it track straight and true?

Tracks really straight. I do notice slight vibration at 60-80. Could be due to alignment or balance (all though I just had them balanced).

So, my question to you all is, can toe be adjusted and brought back into spec when you are lower than stock?

How much of a drop does this look to you all?

[RyanJon]

Yes toe is completely adjustable irrespective of the height of the vehicle. I'm not claiming to be an expert but looking at the pics I'd say it looks 1.5"-2" max but That's just an opinion while comparing to pics of mine at standard height, although I've been told that uk cars are slightly lower that us cars from the factory

[will13k7]

a little hard to tell with the shadows, but your car looks to be lowered pretty close to mine!


I have adjustable control arms to help with the camber, but I left it slightly out of spec to avoid the control arms hitting the inner fender since there are wires hiding there that folks have damaged going too low and/or wanting in-spec camber. My tread wear has been even.

[jran76]

Yes toe is completely adjustable irrespective of the height of the vehicle. I'm not claiming to be an expert but looking at the pics I'd say it looks 1.5"-2" max but That's just an opinion while comparing to pics of mine at standard height, although I've been told that uk cars are slightly lower that us cars from the factory

That's right. Front drop is probably close to -1.5" or maybe a little more. I'd guess front camber is close to -2 degrees. As discussed, that is not correctable, but toe is. With toe close to 0, it will limit tire wear a lot. It won't be perfect, but it will most likely be a lot closer to perfect than what you are describing as excessive. I'd get new tires, and then get it aligned. Just make sure they get toe close to 0 (like 1/16" or less). Just getting it in factory spec won't do.

Control arms would help on the camber side, but you'd need to decide how important it is to eliminate all tire wear. I'd put your setup in the borderline category. I normally say it's not a bad idea once you get close to a -1.3" drop or lower (that puts you around -1.8 degrees of camber). Camber arms help, but they're another part to buy, install, adjust, and things to go wrong with. With that said, the factory control arms won't last forever, and you could upgrade when they start to fail.

[SilverRings]

a little hard to tell with the shadows, but your car looks to be lowered pretty close to mine!


I have adjustable control arms to help with the camber, but I left it slightly out of spec to avoid the control arms hitting the inner fender since there are wires hiding there that folks have damaged going too low and/or wanting in-spec camber. My tread wear has been even.

I saw your build page. Thanks for the measuring idea! Fender to Ground, I am Front: 25-3/8s, Rear: 25-1/2.

[SilverRings]

That's right. Front drop is probably close to -1.5" or maybe a little more. I'd guess front camber is close to -2 degrees. As discussed, that is not correctable, but toe is. With toe close to 0, it will limit tire wear a lot. It won't be perfect, but it will most likely be a lot closer to perfect than what you are describing as excessive. I'd get new tires, and then get it aligned. Just make sure they get toe close to 0 (like 1/16" or less). Just getting it in factory spec won't do.

Control arms would help on the camber side, but you'd need to decide how important it is to eliminate all tire wear. I'd put your setup in the borderline category. I normally say it's not a bad idea once you get close to a -1.3" drop or lower (that puts you around -1.8 degrees of camber). Camber arms help, but they're another part to buy, install, adjust, and things to go wrong with. With that said, the factory control arms won't last forever, and you could upgrade when they start to fail.

If my toe is excessive, taking it close to 0 or 1/16" will effect the cars front grip, correct? It also may make the car "wonder" a bit on straight highways? Are those the things I would notice?

[jran76]

If my toe is excessive, taking it close to 0 or 1/16" will effect the cars front grip, correct? It also may make the car "wonder" a bit on straight highways? Are those the things I would notice?

My experience is that you won't notice much of a difference in terms of grip or how the car tracks with a small change like we are talking about unless the car is at the limit. 1/16" (toe-in) is still well within spec. In general, moving the toe out (closer to 0 or negative value) will decrease high speed stability, but help with initial turn-in. But, again you aren't really changing it much; just keeping it at the low end of the specs. The closer to 0 you get, the better the tires will handle wet conditions too....

[SilverRings]

My experience is that you won't notice much of a difference in terms of grip or how the car tracks with a small change like we are talking about unless the car is at the limit. 1/16" (toe-in) is still well within spec. In general, moving the toe out (closer to 0 or negative value) will decrease high speed stability, but help with initial turn-in. But, again you aren't really changing it much; just keeping it at the low end of the specs. The closer to 0 you get, the better the tires will handle wet conditions too....

So, if i am trying to minimize tire wear, we are saying +1/16" would good, and keep the car relatively stabile on a straight drive? +1/32" would be closest to 0, right and better for the tires? Not sure which to go with.

What is the reason you say to mount new tires, and then to an alignment? More accurate? I thought I should get the alignment locked down before new tires.

Thanks for everyone help. This thread has alot of good info.

[cspcrx]

For minimum tire-wear it would be ideal to have the wheels parallel / 0 degrees while riding. This can be accomplished to give a bit static toe-out to a frontwheel-drive car, or toe-in to a rearwheel-driver.

[SilverRings]

Dont I want a slight bit of possitive toe up front to make sure the car goes straight and no chances of wonders?

[cspcrx]

AWD is more like FWD than RWD so yes. You can see that in the doc above.

[SilverRings]

I think I may go with +.05mm toe. What would this equate to if the shop has an SAE measurement rack?

Using this chart, I think that 1/64 would be closest to .05mm. Trouble is, not sure if alignment racks go below 1/32. Can they?
http://mdmetric.com/tech/cvtchtfdm.htm

[anerbe]

1. Get your alignment done at the same time as new tires. How can you know you fixed your wear issue on worn tires when they are already severely irregular. With new tires, you need to keep track of the tread early on and try to adjust your alignment further if the problem still exists.

2. Zero Toe is best for wear. You really need to play with alignment to get what is best suited for you and your driving profile (more highway, more tracking, etc...). Do a slight positive toe (1/16 each side) all around to keep highway stability and also for higher speed tracks. Zero out for better turn-in / response for lower speed street driving/Autocross (you can even do a slight toe out for the front for even better turn in, but you will exhibit even more wandering on the highway).

Acceleration axle will normally toe out slightly during acceleration, so that's why they say for RWD, to ensure a slight toe in at the rear to combat this. For this car, considering the AWD is biased towards the rear, maybe keep a bit more toe in at the rear.

Again, it really has to do with your preference to feel in the car, as well as how much you really care about wear on the tires. A good start is +1/16 all around. Want a bit better turn in, zero out the fronts.

[SilverRings]

On the S4, when you lower the rear, does the camber go more positive? I know the front does this.

[jran76]

On the S4, when you lower the rear, does the camber go more positive? I know the front does this.

Lowering the front or rear increases negative camber with all other things being equal (so, technically it goes more negative).

[SilverRings]

Lowering the front or rear increases negative camber with all other things being equal (so, technically it goes more negative).

I just realized I had the wrong verbage there. I should have said more negative. Thanks.

[jran76]

I just realized I had the wrong verbage there. I should have said more negative. Thanks.

No worries. I knew what you meant.