No air coming out of clutch line, still feels spongy?!

[erykv1]

Ok fellow B5ers... I'm about to pull my hair out over this clutch bleeding issue.

Just did a 6 speed swap, and the car has yet to move due to this problem...

The only used parts on this swap that weren't replaced that is clutch related is the clutch line that runs between the master and the slave, and the master cylinder itself.

I've verified that the clutch is installed properly, the throw out bearing is the correct one for the fx400, and there are no visible leaks in the system. No leaks inside the footwell or around the lines / bellhousing...

Bled the system 3 million times. Tried bleeding it every option possible... Followed JHMs post on bleeding. Tried with the car level... Tried with the car slightly jacked up in the rear. Pumped the pedal till my calves went numb.

Used a power bleeder as well... I'm Pretty sure I've tried everything short of divine intervention. When the power bleeder is on the system I can see that nothing but straight fluid is coming out. I've even changed the slave out just for good measure.

Does anyone have any clue as to whats going on? I feel like this should be such a simple process but I've battled it for two weeks.



Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[vavJETTAw36]

How spongy are we talking? Can you drive it around a little and pump the clutch every now and then? Try to find hills up and down.


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[erykv1]

How spongy are we talking? Can you drive it around a little and pump the clutch every now and then? Try to find hills up and down.


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Can't drive the car as it won't go in to gear when the car is on.

There is also an audible squeaking noise when the pedal is being pressed. Not sure if that's the sound of the pressure plate being moved or some underlying issue.

[vavJETTAw36]

If you cannot bleed it enough to change gears, it's not your slave my friend.


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[erykv1]

If you cannot bleed it enough to change gears, it's not your slave my friend.


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I never said it was? Lol. I've replaced it just to be sure.

[das4]

Can't drive the car as it won't go in to gear when the car is on.

There is also an audible squeaking noise when the pedal is being pressed. Not sure if that's the sound of the pressure plate being moved or some underlying issue.

the squeaking isn't totally abnormal. mine does the same and I just did the same swap but I used RS4 clutch kit. it works without issues. I could see the PP/flywheel moving during install when I was bleeding the lines with trans/engine just outside of car. squeaks are likely the TOB/clutch fork against the PP. was the trans you sourced rebuilt?

[erykv1]

the squeaking isn't totally abnormal. mine does the same and I just did the same swap but I used RS4 clutch kit. it works without issues. I could see the PP/flywheel moving during install when I was bleeding the lines with trans/engine just outside of car. squeaks are likely the TOB/clutch fork against the PP. was the trans you sourced rebuilt?

Yep. Fresh 1-2 collar and carbon synchros. Everything was replaced on the car. All new bolts all new seals. Not a single corner was cut (which is why it took so long)... But this bleeding thing has me stumped.

[vavJETTAw36]

I never said it was? Lol. I've replaced it just to be sure.

My bad. You didn't say it verbatim, but your entire post is about bleeding your clutch... Well I'm here to tell you not to bleed it a million and one times.

My clutch has a squeak as well but it only started after using ate super blue so I attribute it to that.

Free bump for more help


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[erykv1]

Ok guys. Completely stumped now.

Put in a new master cylinder. Still the same spongy clutch.

The only thing used in the hydraulic system now is the clutch line itself.

I'm about to buy the stainless line and if that doesn't work I'm going to be on the verge of a part out, lol.

[themadscientist]

Why was the trans pulled originally? Was the release fork and associated hardware ok?

[erykv1]

Why was the trans pulled originally? Was the release fork and associated hardware ok?

Car underwent a tip to 6 speed swap.

The clutch fork and the pivot pad were inspected when replacing the input shaft seal.

I ordered a stainless line from USP and it should be here by the end of this week. I honestly have never gotten this much trouble from a clutch system in my life.

[james 408]

have you tried watching the engagement with a buddy pumping it? have you isolated it to the hydrolics? wrong size slave rod? any autozone/ebay parts?

i might consider paying someone for diag, sounds like you're beyond worth it at this point

[erykv1]

have you tried watching the engagement with a buddy pumping it? have you isolated it to the hydrolics? wrong size slave rod? any autozone/ebay parts?

i might consider paying someone for diag, sounds like you're beyond worth it at this point

All 100% brand new OEM / dealer parts. Bought an extra slave to be sure.

Will be checking the slave travel with a boroscope tomorrow and hope the stainless line (I have my doubts) solves this mystery. Fingers crossed.

[zillarob]

So what clutch/fw setup you have?

[erykv1]

So what clutch/fw setup you have?

-Fidanza LWFW
-Clutchmasters FX400 Clutch Kit
-New TOB (proper height version for the pressure plate stack)
-New Pilot Bearing
-New FTE Slave Cylinder
-New FTE Clutch Master
-New USP stainless line (on the way)

Other Notes:

-Fresh 01E rebuild using Advance Automotion Kit
-OEM Flywheel bolts were checked for clearance to crank
-Clutch disk was installed correctly (doesn't seem possible to put in backwards as the pressure plate would have required a ton of force to bolt down)
-Flywheel bolts were shimmed using a torque plate to prevent bolt heads from digging into the flywheel face, again clearance was checked to ensure the bolt heads weren't interfering
-Yes, the bellhousing spacer is installed
-I've probably sent gallons of brake fluid through this system at this point, lol.

Even if something *was* installed incorrectly, I feel like the pedal should feel stiffer than it is now. It always returns to the top, but it never regains its normal feel.

[vavJETTAw36]

I hope the line works out for you. But I just don't see that being that being the issue. But at least you know the entire clutch hydraulic system is new.

To you guys more experienced in trans, is there a way to test the travel of the clutch fork? How much pressure would you need to push it down manually?


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[erykv1]

I hope the line works out for you. But I just don't see that being that being the issue. But at least you know the entire clutch hydraulic system is new.

To you guys more experienced in trans, is there a way to test the travel of the clutch fork? How much pressure would you need to push it down manually?


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I hope it fixes it too! Lol. On the verge of setting it on fire / parting it out.

I believe the pressure would vary based on what pressure plate combo you were running. All I know is my FX400 feels nothing like my friends FX400, lol.

[vavJETTAw36]

Is there a way you can test the clutch fork travel like this? I dont remember there being an access hole next to the slave but maybe worth researching. If so, you can measure your buddies and if they are off then at least you know the fork isnt going in all the way

[zillarob]

How sure are you of what is in your buddies car?

Cm fx400 always felt like stepping in a warm bowl of oatmeal to me.
Softer than stock, and doesnt have that nice break-over feel.

[erykv1]

How sure are you of what is in your buddies car?

Cm fx400 always felt like stepping in a warm bowl of oatmeal to me.
Softer than stock, and doesnt have that nice break-over feel.

I asked him what clutch he was running, I'm pretty sure he wouldnt lie about it.
I know the feel isnt supposed to be great, but I cannot engage any gears when the car is on. With the car off, its fine.

[themadscientist]

Put a line clamp of some kind on the soft section of hose on the clutch line. Then try pushing the pedal (gently at first) and see if it still feels the same. If it's stiff, you'll at least know it's downstream and not the the clutch master cylinder. With a straight edge and a dial caliper, you can measure the installed stack height of the clutch assembly and figure out where it's contacting the TOB when it's all bolted up, to double check that.

[zillarob]

Not saying lying, but maybe mistaken. I hear people say all sorts of things are on their cars, even when I know it isnt because I put it together.

Both the same version of cm fx400 and no knockoffs? Can prob rule out the version thing, they dont last long enough for that to happen

The not disengaging thing, this is def a prob.
fw bolts- If cm, should not be a prob. If knockoff, oem fw bolts can be a prob.
How much wrestling did it take to get the trans on? If it got at too much angle or rammed it home with the bellhousing bolts, can warp the disk and it wont go into gear.

[jayiszraw]

Not saying lying, but maybe mistaken. I hear people say all sorts of things are on their cars, even when I know it isnt because I put it together.

Both the same version of cm fx400 and no knockoffs? Can prob rule out the version thing, they dont last long enough for that to happen

The not disengaging thing, this is def a prob.
fw bolts- If cm, should not be a prob. If knockoff, oem fw bolts can be a prob.
How much wrestling did it take to get the trans on? If it got at too much angle or rammed it home with the bellhousing bolts, can warp the disk and it wont go into gear.

So would this be a duct tape or wd40 fix?

[erykv1]

Not saying lying, but maybe mistaken. I hear people say all sorts of things are on their cars, even when I know it isnt because I put it together.

Both the same version of cm fx400 and no knockoffs? Can prob rule out the version thing, they dont last long enough for that to happen

The not disengaging thing, this is def a prob.
fw bolts- If cm, should not be a prob. If knockoff, oem fw bolts can be a prob.
How much wrestling did it take to get the trans on? If it got at too much angle or rammed it home with the bellhousing bolts, can warp the disk and it wont go into gear.

Haha I hear that. We both do our own wrenching so I'm pretty confident he has the same clutch.

Trans didnt take much convincing to go on, a few small adjustments of the trans jack and a few slight wiggles and the inputshaft mated very smoothly.

I did use OEM flywheel bolts however, but even if they werent clearanced to fit properly, wouldnt the clutch pedal be really hard instead of really soft? Do you have a link to these CM specific bolts?

[zillarob]

The cm fx400 I have seen lately were built on an oem disk hub so the oem bolts are fine.
The alternative versions from other guys use a flat style aftermarket disk hub that can cause probs with the oem bolts.

I ran into this once. Pedal felt normal, but the clutch would drag sometimes and not let you pull it into or out of gear.



Not sure where the pic of the disk disappeared to. The flat aftermarket style has the spring closer to the bolts, and in a smaller circle for a double whammy. It was hitting in the area where the metal is bent up to hold the spring in (if that makes any sesnse).

[erykv1]

Welp... 2 new OEM masters, 2 new OEM laves, one USP stainless line later.

...Still spongy.

Gonna pull the trans. I have no idea what it can be anymore.

[das4]

Welp... 2 new OEM masters, 2 new OEM laves, one USP stainless line later.

...Still spongy.

Gonna pull the trans. I have no idea what it can be anymore.

sorry man that sucks. hope you get it sorted out. at least you'll be a pro at engine removal when it's all done

[erykv1]

Did some more digging, the OP on this thread seems to have the exact same issues I am having... maybe @julex / @zillarob can confirm for me?

User @M-Hood talks about possibly having the wrong PP here:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...=1#post6300894

Here is the only hi-res photo I took of my PP before re-assembly...


...Could I have the wrong PP? I dont understand how the dowels could make a difference. My dowels matched and fit perfectly. The only difference I see is the finger design. You can still see the sticker on the pressure plate above from my car, says 02029-HDCL, which makes me think I have the correct PP... but I have no clue at this point.

Here is a direct link to clutchmasters website, and their pressure plate looks identical to the one I have. http://www.clutchmasters.com/fx400-02029-hdcl/

[MacDaddy]

I had this problem on a BMW, oddly enough i had to remove the salve cylinder, loosen its bleed screw then squeeze the slave with my hand. ton of air came out and the clutch never felt better.

[zillarob]

That looks like the earlier version and the later to me. (the pic in your post is the later)
The dowels appear to be the prob in that thread. Our cars have 10mm dowels, others have 6mm dowels.
I would think you would have noticed if the 6mm holes werent opened up on the pp and it was just sitting on top of the 10mm dowels.


This is the earlier



The fingers on this one are kinda arched opposite from the other version.
This type needs the aftermarket flat style disk so the fingers dont hit the offset hub on an oem disk.
This is the type that South Bend, spec, and some of the other guys use.

[M-Hood]

That looks like the earlier version and the later to me. (the pic in your post is the later)
The dowels appear to be the prob in that thread. Our cars have 10mm dowels, others have 6mm dowels.
I would think you would have noticed if the 6mm holes werent opened up on the pp and it was just sitting on top of the 10mm dowels.


This is the earlier



The fingers on this one are kinda arched opposite from the other version.
This type needs the aftermarket flat style disk so the fingers dont hit the offset hub on an oem disk.
This is the type that South Bend, spec, and some of the other guys use.

Yeah that picture is of the older 2300 lb clamping load diaphram while the ones CM uses now for the 2.7t and 1.8t 240mm kits are the 2500 lb clamping load diaphram.


If the correct TOB was used it could be an issue with the flywheel throwing off the stack height which can cause that spongy feel. If you pull the slave back out you can always see how much movement you have with the clutch fork just by pushing it with your hand, it shouldn't really move all that much and if the stack height is too short it will move back/forth a good amount. If the fork does move too much you can always play around with making slightly longer slave rods to see if that fixes the issue, but make sure you don't go too long because that can cause the slave to bottom out and put too much pressure on the PP causing the clutch to slip since it won't be putting 100% of the clamping load on the disk.

[zillarob]

I see you did a swap. Did you pull the spacer thing off the crank and use the other spacer between the belhousing and the engine?

[das4]

I see you did a swap. Did you pull the spacer thing off the crank and use the other spacer between the belhousing and the engine?

I wondered that too, but zooming in on his pic I saw the pilot bearing installed which won't go in with the tip spacer

[erykv1]

I see you did a swap. Did you pull the spacer thing off the crank and use the other spacer between the belhousing and the engine?

I have the bellhousing spacer, but the spacer behind the tip flex plate that was on the crank. I did not reuse as I was under the impression that it wasn't needed.

Another thought... if the OEM system has an SAC clutch, and now my setup doesn't have one... could this be affecting it somehow?

[Nizmo]

I've seen transmissions installed without use of an alignment tool cause this exact problem.

You would need to remove the trans and redo the entire job if thats the case.

[themadscientist]

I've seen transmissions installed without use of an alignment tool cause this exact problem.

You would need to remove the trans and redo the entire job if thats the case.

Wut.

[erykv1]

I've seen transmissions installed without use of an alignment tool cause this exact problem.

You would need to remove the trans and redo the entire job if thats the case.

Wut.

wut x2

please explain.

[zillarob]

Warped disk from ramming them together with it misaligned, pp wont release enough to keep it from dragging.

[erykv1]

We were meticulous in mating the trans to the engine, and an alignment tool was used. I should know whats wrong by the end of the week, will be boroscoping the trans to see what is going on exactly by the PP.

Thank you all for your help.

[M-Hood]

Warped disk from ramming them together with it misaligned, pp wont release enough to keep it from dragging.

Can happen when forcing the transmission into place instead of just letting it slide into place, so basically forcing the input shaft thru the spline of the disk causing it to warp.