Sanity Check: Talk me out of the ATP GT2871R eliminators

[Schtug]

So, the long and short of the situation is that what was supposed to be a simple turbo CHRA replacement has spiraled wildly out of control and turned into a major project because I just can't leave well enough alone.

A little background: Bought wrecked 01' s4 6 speed for dirt cheap with the intention of swapping the drivetrain to another car with a blown motor/turbos/whatever. About 8 months later found said car with blown turbos. Also an 01' s4 6 speed and dirt cheap as well. Bought it sight unseen from a few states away and sent my buddy (who I will refer to as Tyler from here on) with cash and a trailer to go pick it up. Kid I bought it from had not the slightest idea what he had because Tyler called me on the way home and told me I was going to shit a brick when he got back with the car. Refused to tell me anything beyond that. So he gets back and I go check the car out a few days later. Look it over and it's pretty much what I was expecting to see for a 15 year old car. Popped the hood, started poking around and then commenced with brick shitting because as it turns out the car was a full blown stage 3 with fueling and genuine borg k04's.

After a substantial amount of white boy high fiving we decided we should probably start doing diagnostics on the car. It had a multitude of issues, obvious misfire, major boost leak, dead primary o2 sensors, and all the other things that come along with a neglected b5. Corrected all the issues and took it out for a drive. The car succeeded in scaring the hell out of me when I did a 2nd to 3rd pull. I'm not used to cars that throw you back in the seat in a straight line, well, at least at the time I wasn't, that has since changed. It pulled strong and made 24psi with almost zero smoke so me and Tyler are looking at each other wondering if the damn thing even has a blown turbo. Well that question was promptly answered because after a few more pulls it started throwing smoke heavily. Take it back and pull the lower intercooler hoses, plenty of oil where it shouldn't be.

Fast forward a few months and I get the motor and trans yanked out, separated and the motor on the stand. My other buddy (who I will refer to as Chris from here on) and I start tearing into the motor because like I said I can't leave well enough alone and wanted to make sure it was solid before committing to putting it back in the car. Well the deeper me and Chris dug the more we found and eventually we were staring at a bare block. Started out with "well I just want to pull the valve covers, upper and lower oil pans to reseal everything." First red flag was that the pass side cylinder head had been replaced and looked brand new. Ok, well we'll just pull the heads and make sure everything is alright. Pull the pass side head and cylinder #1 piston is not looking so good. Possibly foreign object sucked into cylinder, who knows but the top of the piston was all chewed up. All sorts of sharp edges that could create a hot spot and cause that cylinder to detonate. Well shit, lets pull the oil pans. Get them off and the oil pickup screen is about 75% blocked with what I can only describe as a carbon chip like substance along with a piece of a circlip and some excess silicone gasket maker. Onward with removing all the pistons/rods and the main caps. All the crankshaft journals look pristine, phew got lucky.

So begins a lot of tedious measurement taking. Four hours later, crank journals are all spec'd out, no taper or out of roundness, main bores are good, no taper or ovaling, cylinder bores are a bit of a different issue. Not bad for taper top to bottom on the load axis, but #1 was nicked up and could really use an overbore. Ok, well mahle makes an 81.5mm piston kit for these motors, perfect I'll get that. Nope, out of stock until the end of january according to everyone I called(which I later found not to be true, how ironic). So I guess lets go all out with an 83mm set of je slugs and while I'm at it might as well buy a set of pauters to go along with them; arp main and head studs, sure why not and fuck it while we're in there might as well re-do the heads and ditch the factory valves.

Currently everything has arrived and the block and other bits are going to the machine shop. I've been thinking that I'm building one hell of a setup to push some pj k04's so started looking into turbo upgrades. Frankenturbo was never an option, SRM was briefly, got stuck on the JHM rs6-r for a while and then started looking into gt28 options. Found that ATP offers a few gt28 based eliminator turbos for these cars with somewhat similar characteristics to the tial 770's and that got me thinking. I've seen plenty of setups using tial 770's and a handful of custom external gate gt28 setups, but I couldn't find a single person (other than on the a4 single turbo side of the forum) running an internally gated ATP gt28 eliminator kit. That concerns me. I'm sure there is a reason but I can't figure out what it is. So guys, help me out here. I'm looking to make a decision in the next few weeks and I'm tempted to go with one of the gt28 eliminator kits from ATP.

[DieselElectric]

I didn't read the whole thing, but thanks for bringing this to my attention.

The gt2871 elim is an interesting thought. I installed one on a friends a4 and had great results a few years back.

[Schtug]

I didn't read the whole thing, but thanks for bringing this to my attention.

The gt2871 elim is an interesting thought. I installed one on a friends a4 and had great results a few years back.

I don't blame you one bit for not reading the whole thing. Lol

I've created quite an absurd wall of text.

[DieselElectric]

Lol I will definitely revisit in the morning and give it the time. I really am curious as well though, these are now on my radar.

[Mille Bornes]

lol I read the whole thing and am in for more info.

I saw these a few months ago but just kinda disregarded them since I never hear of anybody running them.

[Schtug]

I guess I might end up being a guinea pig the way this is looking. Seems like this could be a case of not many people knew these turbos existed. Not so much that they have a fatal flaw and are terrible which was my initial thought. Maybe there aren't very many people looking around for GT based turbo kits these days.

[DieselElectric]

Should be ball bearing as well. ATP advertises them as 800hp capable, and they are a bit cheaper than the 770's.

Sounds like a solid setup.

Like I said, I built a friends car using the 2871 eliminator on a 1.8t, b5 avant quattro. Made that car pretty damn fun.

[FlyboyS4]

You probably ought to call Mark at Autospeed and see what he thinks, he probably gave this some thought when he was putting together the GT kit that he offers.

[Seerlah]

Friend ran these on a c5 a6 rs6 conversion. From what I recall, there is a slight fitment issue. But if he worked around, I'm sure you can too. He sold this car a while back for a pick up truck (more suitable for what he needed).

[Bordom]

The GT cars used to be more popular in the mid 2000's. Not surprised you didn't find anything lol.

I'd personally go with some JHM RS6 Turbos. I've been itching to at least foray into the PB550 RS6 Hybrids by Project B5.

They look like solid turbo's but I've seen little reviews from people who've run them

[FlyboyS4]

They look like solid turbo's but I've seen little reviews from people who've run them

Have you seen any reviews? At the price they're selling them for I'm suspicious about them being 'solid' turbo's.

[Schtug]

Should be ball bearing as well. ATP advertises them as 800hp capable, and they are a bit cheaper than the 770's.

Sounds like a solid setup.

Like I said, I built a friends car using the 2871 eliminator on a 1.8t, b5 avant quattro. Made that car pretty damn fun.

Yes, they are ball bearing. I think the "downside" vs the 770's is that they do not have a billet compressor wheel. For me that isn't a downside, but I know plenty of people get all juiced up about fully machined billet compressor wheels as though they offer huge gains vs their cast counterparts. I'm going to call ATP in the coming days and see if they're using the .64 or .86 ar turbine housing with the kit.

You probably ought to call Mark at Autospeed and see what he thinks, he probably gave this some thought when he was putting together the GT kit that he offers.

While I appreciate the suggestion, there's something that doesn't feel right about calling a business to ask about a competing business's product that they don't even sell. Sort of like "yea I see you put a ton of time and effort into developing your own kit but what do you think about this other kit that another company sells because I can't find much information on it?"

Friend ran these on a c5 a6 rs6 conversion. From what I recall, there is a slight fitment issue. But if he worked around, I'm sure you can too. He sold this car a while back for a pick up truck (more suitable for what he needed).

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but rs6 conversion leads me to believe that he put an rs6 bi turbo v8 into his a6. If that's the case then I could definitely see there being possible fitment issues.

[Bordom]

Have you seen any reviews? At the price they're selling them for I'm suspicious about them being 'solid' turbo's.

Other than the sale ad back in 2015 for a set with exhaust manifolds? No lol

I'll go cheap and get the PB550, then when they blow and won't cover anything or send replacements, I'll do it right and get JHM RS6 turbos. Someone's gotta be the test bed.

Edit: I did find one. http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=527776

Everything graciously mispelled by Android

[Schtug]

The GT cars used to be more popular in the mid 2000's. Not surprised you didn't find anything lol.

I'd personally go with some JHM RS6 Turbos. I've been itching to at least foray into the PB550 RS6 Hybrids by Project B5.

They look like solid turbo's but I've seen little reviews from people who've run them

Ahh that makes sense then. Definitely not going to find any info if no one is building them anymore. Generally speaking, I'm intending to stay away from the china made "hybrid billet" turbos that seem to have flooded the market. Guess I should probably call this a "throwback" build.

[DieselElectric]

In reality these should just be a gt2871r with a custom housing.

I ran their gt3071r kit on my 2.0t and it was top notch. I don't see why this would be any different.

On the 1.8t the limitation is the manifold, but considering we have seen 600+ awhp on our manifolds, I don't think it would be an issue.

[Bordom]

Ahh that makes sense then. Definitely not going to find any info if no one is building them anymore. Generally speaking, I'm intending to stay away from the china made "hybrid billet" turbos that seem to have flooded the market. Guess I should probably call this a "throwback" build.

I updated my post with a url of a build thread on a set of these turbos. Most of it turned into "you'll blow your motor on thise turbos" type threads

Everything graciously mispelled by Android

[FlyboyS4]

While I appreciate the suggestion, there's something that doesn't feel right about calling a business to ask about a competing business's product that they don't even sell. Sort of like "yea I see you put a ton of time and effort into developing your own kit but what do you think about this other kit that another company sells because I can't find much information on it?"

Mark's been pretty active with the B5 S4 since around the time it came out and I've never found him unwilling to share his thoughts on mods. He may well offer his kit with different Garrett turbo's as an option. He lists the kit as using the 28RS but there's at least one build I know of using the ASP kit that used the 2860R turbo's.

[FlyboyS4]

I updated my post with a url of a build thread on a set of these turbos. Most of it turned into "you'll blow your motor on thise turbos" type threads

The RS6-X is different from the PB550.

[Bordom]

The RS6-X is different from the PB550.

I must be confused then. No data/experiences exist for those turbos

Everything graciously mispelled by Android

[jibberjive]

There were a handful of people who ran the ATP eliminators back about 5 years (or whenever), none to great effect. I can't recall a single 'successful' ATP eliminator build; I can, however, recall a good handful that didn't perform how the builder desired.

However, that was before the advent of 'ME7 self-tuning", so, with the current breed of tuners, they may be able to make the ATP eliminators more acceptable. Also, they were usually on 2.7's, so with your 3.0, maybe they won't be so oversized. Our motors generally thrive with smaller A/R hotside, so the eliminators were super lazy.

And yes, these are normal Garrett GT turbos with a custom bolt patterned hotside.

I don't know how much you are going to be paying for the ATP eliminators, but if it were me, and I were going to spend a pretty penny on retail 'eliminator' turbos for the 2.7t, I would just go for Tials (do 605 v2's if you don't want to pay for 770's). My opinion.

[Drehmoment]

A ex employee of 034 Motorsport had those ATP Gt's on his S4 , his name was Max. I forgot his username (racerexx?) but there should be huge build thread in the project section. I remember that the eliminators were extremely laggy on stock manifolds with a restrictive hot housing. The conclusion was you need headers with a true Garret hot side to make GT's shine.

[Schtug]

In reality these should just be a gt2871r with a custom housing.

I ran their gt3071r kit on my 2.0t and it was top notch. I don't see why this would be any different.

On the 1.8t the limitation is the manifold, but considering we have seen 600+ awhp on our manifolds, I don't think it would be an issue.

That's kind of what I'm banking on(them being a gt2871r with a custom housing) because if that's the case then they should be very reliable.

I updated my post with a url of a build thread on a set of these turbos. Most of it turned into "you'll blow your motor on thise turbos" type threads

Everything graciously mispelled by Android

Honestly not sure why anyone would want to run bigger than a k04 on a stock engine anyway. You're nearly doubling the factory power output with k04's and fueling as it is. I realize there is the "turn up the boost and run it till it blows" mentality, but why? Aside from the obvious connecting rod and valve train issues when you try to make big power, the engine from the factory is set up for k03 power, meaning tight clearances. You double the power you're putting more heat into the system, parts expand more, tight tolerances get even tighter and all of a sudden you're on the verge of meltdown due to lack of lubrication. I just tore down a 2.7 that had been stage 3 for around 70k miles. Piston skirts were beat to hell from expanding in the bore and the bearings were pretty well beat. It was probably on the verge of spinning a rod bearing because the rod caps just sort of fell off after they were unbolted. Which is what happens when powdered metal rods reach the end of their useful life, the caps start to loosen up.

Mark's been pretty active with the B5 S4 since around the time it came out and I've never found him unwilling to share his thoughts on mods. He may well offer his kit with different Garrett turbo's as an option. He lists the kit as using the 28RS but there's at least one build I know of using the ASP kit that used the 2860R turbo's.

Maybe I'll shoot him an email then. He can respond at his leisure if he is inclined to do so. I'm definitely not going to take up his time with a phone call when I'm not even buying anything from him.

[Drehmoment]

Here it is
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...e-PT6262-Turbo

[Schtug]

There were a handful of people who ran the ATP eliminators back about 5 years (or whenever), none to great effect. I can't recall a single 'successful' ATP eliminator build; I can, however, recall a good handful that didn't perform how the builder desired.

However, that was before the advent of 'ME7 self-tuning", so, with the current breed of tuners, they may be able to make the ATP eliminators more acceptable. Also, they were usually on 2.7's, so with your 3.0, maybe they won't be so oversized. Our motors generally thrive with smaller A/R hotside, so the eliminators were super lazy.

And yes, these are normal Garrett GT turbos with a custom bolt patterned hotside.

I don't know how much you are going to be paying for the ATP eliminators, but if it were me, and I were going to spend a pretty penny on retail 'eliminator' turbos for the 2.7t, I would just go for Tials (do 605 v2's if you don't want to pay for 770's). My opinion.

A ex employee of 034 Motorsport had those ATP Gt's on his S4 , his name was Max. I forgot his username (racerexx?) but there should be huge build thread in the project section. I remember that the eliminators were extremely laggy on stock manifolds with a restrictive hot housing. The conclusion was you need headers with a true Garret hot side to make GT's shine.

Thank you both for the insight, much appreciated. This is going to be a 2.8, not a 3.0 stroker, but I know what you're getting at. The hotside ar is what I'd like to find out. I'll see if I can locate that build thread. Either of you happen to remember around what rpm the 2871's would hit full spool on a 2.7? I only ask because turbo lag seems to be like the devil among the b5 community due to how fast the stock k03's and even the rs4 k04's spool up. I don't mind a little bit of lag, but what I don't want is an ultra narrow powerband at the top of the rev range.

[Schtug]

Here it is
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...e-PT6262-Turbo

where's the beer emoticon when I need it. Lol

[Drehmoment]

All your answers should be in the link I provided

[GO-GOTEKNO]

The Autospeed kit is pretty solid , every once in awhile one will come up for sale if I were you I would go that route . In the past I have also heard of people being disappointed with the results of the eliminator style turbos .

[aysix]

All the spool, none of the power with those eliminators. The only ones worth messing around with are the 2871's.

[DieselElectric]

Read through that thread, and it pretty much cemented my plans for next year.

Stk 6262, I just can't justify the costs of the 770's, and my goals are high enough to call into question the reliability of the 605's. If these haven't yielded good results, then no point in wasting time or money when a reasonably priced proven option is available.

[Yuppie]

I had a bored 2.8 motor w/ CP Pistons, pauter rods, built 2.8 heads and had tial 770 setup. Even with a bullshit base Eurodyne tune the car was fun after 3/3.5k it didn't show signs of giving up in the time end and kept wanted to go. The new motor will be a 2.7 with stock pistons, pauter rods, and built 2.8 heads, and Rockcandy customs girdle. i am pleased with tial 770 and plan on maximizing the turbos and the engine.

tial seem to have proven to do well with their 770 kit. I know the 605.1 had issues however I haven't heard that about the 605.2. Look for a used tial 770 and snag that, you'll be happy. I do plan on staying below 700 whp. Whatever EPL can squeeze out I'll be happy with.

[Yuppie]

Davenew and JDM EJ1 95 both ran ASP GT kit might be worth reaching out to them.

Years ago there was a video of ASP GT vs wicked motor GT kit. If you YouTube it I am sure it will pull up.

[str8blst]

I built my car (years ago) with ATP GT28RS's made over 640 crank HP on a Maha (with Methanol)... built engine built trans etc etc... I really liked the car the way it drove and did not feel the turbos were overly laggy. I've since sold the car a few months ago and the new owner can/will probably chime in on this thread with his own thoughts.

IMHO... when I was looking the 770R's were not tested and really available yet... so I went ATP GT28RS's... they were really really good imho and I was pleased with how they performed.

[MakkeS4]

ATP eliminator 2871 turbine side is a little too big..just my opinion.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...PTION!-sort-of

Turbine 0.72 ar, see page 6
Maybe new billet compressor wheel will help a little?

[Seerlah]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but rs6 conversion leads me to believe that he put an rs6 bi turbo v8 into his a6. If that's the case then I could definitely see there being possible fitment issues.

RS6 aesthetic wise. Engine was a 2.7t with rods. May have upped the displacement, but this was years ago. Don't remember.

Update: Correction, they were GT28RS eliminators. Turbine housings should be the same, so fitment issues with downpipe connections are the same. But seems there are also inlet fitment issues (read on a different thread made by Steve, before I linked this one). Most likely would be discussed in the thread. I didn't read it.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...2-7t-A6-to-RS6

[jibberjive]

Here's another option/thought, reading back through the old threads, the GT25 eliminator has .64 A/R hotside, and the other two have .71 A/R. You could possibly see if ATP would be willing to sell a GT28RS eliminator, but with the .64 A/R hotside machined to fit instead of the larger one. That, and a new-school custom tuner, may make these more viable. You could even throw a billet compressor wheel on them and have the cold side machined (but by then, you may as well buy the Tial 770's that are already billet wheel Garrett eliminators).

[FlyboyS4]

you may as well buy the Tial 770's

This is the most salient takeaway. I can't fathom passing on a product purpose built for this motor to try and shoe horn something else with the price point the OP is headed for.

[julex]

Tial 770 for several reasons, most notably b/c it is BB CHRA, billet and purpose built for our engine. I know I like my set and that's on 2.7t. If you're doing 3.0, they would be even better. Here is spool graph for properly tuned 770s on 2.7t with 93oct (green is boost, timing wasn't tuned past 6.5k that's why such power drop off)):

[DieselElectric]

Julex that is in straight 93?

Impressive, and makes me thing the 770's could be worth the cost. Thats damn good power for having full boost by 4k.

You've had your car dynoed correct? What did it put to the wheels?

[julex]

93 + 50/50 meth. E85 is unattainable in this stupid state I am in, too bad, the outcome would be even better on ethanol.

No actual dyno. But this is as close as it gets to real without sitting on rollers which I don't have time, money or desire to go and do. Dyno is from logs using proper car weight and precisely calibrated (in tune) speed signal and using published cda aero resistance, on totally flat road.

[Mikse]

You've had your car dynoed correct? What did it put to the wheels?

True performance means more than dyno and I believe julex did post to 60-130 thread but for some reason times was never published.?
Spool up is unbelievable (which I still can't believe how it is possible ) for 770 but allroad and IAT below 0C does make a difference.