Tuning Poll/Insight Please TialR770, EPL

[Mr. Rictus]

Hey all, I'm trying to figure out what's up with my 2.7T.

I've got a TialR770 kit with EPL tune and fueling on it. Since day 1 with the tune the long-term fuel trims and misfire recognition have been disabled. I've tried various versions of the Tial tune from EPL with EVAP, etc. turned on and off but the issues persist.

I had EPL delete the EVAP, SAI, rear O2s, and EGTs and set all related readiness to "PASS". When I check the readiness via VCDS, the "O2 Sensor Heaters" and "O2 Sensors" say FAIL. I've tried to set the readiness via VCDS but I can't get it to set. There are no fault codes related to the O2 sensors.

Once the car is out of cold start, the idle bounces as if there is a vac leak, vacuum before that reads 15-16. There was a vac leak on the intake manifold but that's been fixed. I haven't had the car smoke tested yet to see if there is a leak anywhere else.

So, I'm asking anyone else out there who's had the EVAP, SAI, rear O2s, and EGTs deleted if their cars have experienced any of the issues my car is experiencing.

Thanks in advance!

[julex]

What injectors?

[Mr. Rictus]

I mentioned EPL tuning and fueling kit.

I can't recall what cc they are but I got it all directly from EPL.

[S4gasm2.7t]

The reason julex asks is because with a big turbo setup like tial 770 tend to come very large injectors so you don't max out the duty cycles of lesser flowing ones... but with big injectors come a so called lopey or rough idle... first of all contact EPL so you know exactly what's in your car... second definitely smoke test the car cause you still may have a vac leak... trust EPL they know they're shit but hell, mistakes can be made by anyone even the most seasoned. Also trust Julex he's helped me on here in the past he knows his shit as well.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[MikeyB3]

Weird that those would be disabled. I AM however, interested in your interesting idle issue. My symptoms are very similar, and my car has gotten progressively leaner and leaner; to the point at which I'm not driving it til I can get it some serious help.

Is your idle anything like this? (This video is my issue.)


Subscribed to this thread as well.

[Mr. Rictus]

The reason julex asks is because with a big turbo setup like tial 770 tend to come very large injectors so you don't max out the duty cycles of lesser flowing ones... but with big injectors come a so called lopey or rough idle... first of all contact EPL so you know exactly what's in your car... second definitely smoke test the car cause you still may have a vac leak... trust EPL they know they're shit but hell, mistakes can be made by anyone even the most seasoned. Also trust Julex he's helped me on here in the past he knows his shit as well.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

I'm not so much worried about the idle, as that's something I can address via a smoke check, as you mentioned. I do trust EPL, that's why I used their software! :-) I've been working with EPL to figure out what's going on but I'm at the end of my ideas as EPL is at the end of theirs. I need the car to pass NY inspeciton, and I can't with those two O2 bits failing.

Weird that those would be disabled. I AM however, interested in your interesting idle issue. My symptoms are very similar, and my car has gotten progressively leaner and leaner; to the point at which I'm not driving it til I can get it some serious help.

Is your idle anything like this? (This video is my issue.)


Subscribed to this thread as well.

That's exactly what my car does once it's warm. Exactly. From speaking with a buddy who is super knowledgeable about all things car-related, he said that the bouncing idle could be from the car running rich as well. When I'm accelerating and get up to about 13lbs of boost, black soot/smoke blows out of my exhaust which leads to it running rich under boost. This is a protective measure, I imagine, so that I don't grenade my motor on an untuned file. I'm not sure we've got the same things going on, but that clip is spot-on as far as the idle bounce is concerned.

[MikeyB3]

That's exactly what my car does once it's warm. Exactly. From speaking with a buddy who is super knowledgeable about all things car-related, he said that the bouncing idle could be from the car running rich as well. When I'm accelerating and get up to about 13lbs of boost, black soot/smoke blows out of my exhaust which leads to it running rich under boost. This is a protective measure, I imagine, so that I don't grenade my motor on an untuned file. I'm not sure we've got the same things going on, but that clip is spot-on as far as the idle bounce is concerned.

VERY interesting. Mine runs barely rich under idle, but runs WAY lean (+25.5%) on long-term fuel trim. It's gotten progressively worse, but this idle issue has been going on for some time, and it's still a mystery.

Could you elaborate on your set up as well [and how old is it]? Mostly just for my curiosity.

[Mikse]

I also have similar bouncing at idle but so far it's been very rare and only lasts for a short time.
And yes I have EPL. Not sure could it be tune related (probably not) but will change tuner anyway to get some customer service...and finished tune (after two years of trying with EPL)

[Mr. Rictus]

VERY interesting. Mine runs barely rich under idle, but runs WAY lean (+25.5%) on long-term fuel trim. It's gotten progressively worse, but this idle issue has been going on for some time, and it's still a mystery.

Could you elaborate on your set up as well [and how old is it]? Mostly just for my curiosity.

Well... I had a 2.7T swapped into my 2002 S6, the motor is bone stock and it's got a custom Y-pipe, modified Wagner's RS6 SMICs, modified APR bi-pipe, custom catchcan/power steering reservoir, all new sensors/seals/gaskets/accessories throughout, and a full 3" exhaust from each turbo. There's a bunch I'm leaving out, you can check out my build thread if you'd like. I've had it on the road since May. http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...l-770R-2-7T-In

I also have similar bouncing at idle but so far it's been very rare and only lasts for a short time.
And yes I have EPL. Not sure could it be tune related (probably not) but will change tuner anyway to get some customer service...and finished tune (after two years of trying with EPL)

I don't think the idle bounce is related to the tune, I just mentioned it so that I included as much info as possible.

[S4gasm2.7t]

As far as the puff of black smoke when you hit boost, that's normal even on a car that runs perfect afr's happens either when the sensors realize how much boat is coming on so they raise the amount of fuel and for a moment it runs rich then tapers out. Or its when you have your foot pinned and the ecu switches from open loop to closed loop and again you'll run rich for a moment them taper off... k03 cars do it k04 cars do it I can only imagine that gt based turbos do it...

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Monty23]

As far as the puff of black smoke when you hit boost, that's normal even on a car that runs perfect afr's happens either when the sensors realize how much boat is coming on so they raise the amount of fuel and for a moment it runs rich then tapers out. Or its when you have your foot pinned and the ecu switches from open loop to closed loop and again you'll run rich for a moment them taper off... k03 cars do it k04 cars do it I can only imagine that gt based turbos do it...

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

This rich condition your speaking of is due to poor tuning. Nothing related to the turbos.

[S4gasm2.7t]

Not saying the turbos, I only mentioned turbos to convey the stage the car is at. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. But even well tuned cars tend to do it. Maybe less but pretty much every turbo car I've seen still does it no mater the tune or level of performance

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Mr. Rictus]

I appreciate the info on the black smoke.

[MikeyB3]

I appreciate the info on the black smoke.

unfortunately, nothing has explained either of your issues.

[Mr. Rictus]

True! At least people are looking at the thread. Maybe I'll get some more helpful info sometime.

[zillarob]

Misfires being disabled at idle is common on epl tunes.
Not sure if they do it on purpose, or just a product of maf scaling pulling load below the activation threshold.
Either way, its kind of bogus.

Black smoke, what maf do you have?
I have an epl 85mm hitachi maf on my f21 car and it runs dangerously close to 5v.
605s and bigger prob run it even higher. Looks like they are adding fuel through one of the correction tables instead of basing it on how much air is actually flowing.
I dont know whether this is a good method or not, but prob a good idea to hang out safely on the rich side when doing this.

[Mr. Rictus]

I've revved the motor while looking at the misfire banks but it was still disabled.
I'm running the Pro-M 80 that came with the EPL fueling setup.

[zillarob]

Scratch what I said about the maf, yours shouldnt have those probs.

Rapid changes will also disable misfire rec.
You know anybody that plays with nefmoto stuff? Might be able to fix it yourself if they havent done too much "tamperproofing".
It should be trivial to pull the tune and lower the misfire load threshold to enable at idle. Something they should have done in the first place.

[Corradovolksb]

What are your fuel trim in value block 32? Short term should be +-5% and long term should be +-10%. Like zillarob said you can raise the torque reserve at idle to help smooth out misfires. if you have an air leak somewhere that will show up in your fuel trims.

[Mr. Rictus]

Scratch what I said about the maf, yours shouldnt have those probs.

Rapid changes will also disable misfire rec.
You know anybody that plays with nefmoto stuff? Might be able to fix it yourself if they havent done too much "tamperproofing".
It should be trivial to pull the tune and lower the misfire load threshold to enable at idle. Something they should have done in the first place.

Messing with it in Nefmoto is under consideration, but first I'm going to install rear O2s and see what happens. If the rear O2s are recognized by the car, then I'll know if they were just deleted without the readiness being set to auto-pass.

What are your fuel trim in value block 32? Short term should be +-5% and long term should be +-10%. Like zillarob said you can raise the torque reserve at idle to help smooth out misfires. if you have an air leak somewhere that will show up in your fuel trims.

I can't see fuel trims since they're disabled. It's one of the problems I'm having.

[julex]

I can't see fuel trims since they're disabled. It's one of the problems I'm having.

That would be a first... What do you mean by "fuel trims disabled"? That would be super irresponsible to disable and I never heard anybody taking that risk...

Does block 001 shows any lambda control or it sits in "0" all the time?

[jibberjive]

Yeah, I have a hard time believing EPL disabled the fuel trims.

[Corradovolksb]

Yah it's not good if trims are disabled have you called EPL to confirm that they are? So you don't have any codes stored and value block 32 field 2 is constantly 0?

[Mr. Rictus]

That would be a first... What do you mean by "fuel trims disabled"? That would be super irresponsible to disable and I never heard anybody taking that risk...

Does block 001 shows any lambda control or it sits in "0" all the time?

Yeah, I have a hard time believing EPL disabled the fuel trims.

Yah it's not good if trims are disabled have you called EPL to confirm that they are? So you don't have any codes stored and value block 32 field 2 is constantly 0?

I didn't say that EPL disabled the long term fuel trim recognition. :-)

I said that when I try to look at long term fuel trims via VCDS, it says "Disabled", as it does for misfire recognition. I'm guessing that those two items not working are related to the O2 items not being set to pass for readiness. I believe I read that they are all related.

[zillarob]

If you dont have any codes, and are showing failed on readiness, Id be looking at the ecu to figure out how they went about doing the codeouts.
I think its the n80 that will kill fuel trims if done improperly.

[Mr. Rictus]

If you dont have any codes, and are showing failed on readiness, Id be looking at the ecu to figure out how they went about doing the codeouts.
I think its the n80 that will kill fuel trims if done improperly.

The N80 was my initial culprit. But the readiness for it is set to PASS, and I have no codes relating to it.

[phila_dot]

The N80 was my initial culprit. But the readiness for it is set to PASS, and I have no codes relating to it.

This doesn't confirm that it's completely coded out. Fuel trims will stop learning if the valve is disconnected and the output stage is not disabled.

[rcoolb2002]

That idle bounce looks similar to a throttle body that needs adaption.

[Mr. Rictus]

This doesn't confirm that it's completely coded out. Fuel trims will stop learning if the valve is disconnected and the output stage is not disabled.

I did buy a brand new N80, looped it, and plugged it in to see if the trims and misfire would work again. They did not.

Is there something else I'd need to do?