So having worked for Audi for about 1 yr now....dont be scared

[SpoolBus]

Multiple 4.2's in from S4's, Q7's, RS4's, S5's, RS7's..yadda yadda and only 6 or so needed the timing components and tho the job is involved, and having the proper tools makes it easy, it's not nearly as close to what the hype is on the intranets/webs..

Folks dont be scared about the timing component BS put out by social media and parts distributors, the failure rate is EXTREMELY low and overall repair is roughly 1.5 days compared to the years of worry, fear mongering etc you have to endure from the hype.

Enjoy the cars, you should be more worried about the little things that add up.....

[A4Maine-iac]

Nice! I am actually looking into changing careers and becoming a tech.

[LINDW4LL]

Multiple 4.2's in from S4's, Q7's, RS4's, S5's, RS7's..yadda yadda and only 6 or so needed the timing components and tho the job is involved, and having the proper tools makes it easy, it's not nearly as close to what the hype is on the intranets/webs..

Umm... None of the engines you listed even suffer from timing chain failure besides the S4.

[2004B6S4]

of the jobs that were done there, do you recall which specific parts were replaced? do they do all of the guides, tensioners, and chains or just some of those parts?

[TarlCabot]

Umm... None of the engines you listed even suffer from timing chain failure besides the S4.

i dont think he was referring that all of these suffered failures, just they were all "chain" type timing and would eventually need maintenance

[JimmyBones]

Umm... None of the engines you listed even suffer from timing chain failure besides the S4.

The Q7s, RS4s, S5s, and other FSI 4.2 V8s do suffer issues with the AC compressor or power steering pump locking up and stripping out the gear drive unit though. To fix that the big lower rear timing cover has to come off, which is basically the same as doing a timing chain service. I have had to do that job a few times.

The RS7s and other 4.0TT engines are likely too new to see any issues with the timing chain area. I would like to see the special tools to hold the cams in place for the 4.0TT though because the cam bearings are apart of the valve cover like the B8 2.0T TFSI.

[LINDW4LL]

Gotcha.

I can agree with OPs message though. There's no sense in worrying about it failing- at least if you plan on keeping the car for awhile. It will eventually happen, you will do the service, and then move on with life. Not a big deal.

If you're looking to buy an S4 at this point, though- definitely look for one that's already had the service done. It usually doesn't cost much more to get one that's had it done.

[lathdogg]

Hey spoolbus, what about scored cylinders?

[Mr.Wrong]

At this point whoever still believes in this hype is just an uneducated newb! It's been covered quite decently over years.

[The Guvna]

Just bought an 04 and I will be honest, I have been terrified. I realized however that that is no way to live, am just going to enjoy her and deal with whatever comes.

[0396]

I'm happy to see an Audi Tech post this real world experience. My local Audi Tech at the dealer where I have service my S/4. His advice - just enjoy the car and deal with it if and when the time comes vs simply taking it in at 100k for this timing service.

[VinnysS4]

Thanks for the post. However, i'm still in constant worry about WHEN it will go and what components it will take with it. I'd like to own the car for many years to come and i will be doing the Timing service more as a maintenance item then a "needs to be done because xxxxx part failed and destroyed xxxxx parts" (read: guide and valves) The notorious guide on the b6/b7 s4 has a 99% failure rate...hence the "when" not "if" it needs done. Until it happens, i'm going to enjoy the hell out of my car. Once i do the service, i will sleep better at night knowing that some other expensive part/service is right around the corner! thanks audi! lol (i know owning an Audi comes with its own expense and im glad to pay that...because...its ... well an AUDI)

[Jake@JHM]

The 4.2 in the S4 has a pretty high failure rate, specially since the amount of S4s available in the states are pretty low. We have multiple cars in every month for timing chain jobs due to actual timing chain issues.

The Audi Dealership isn't going to get many change jobs due to the cost of going to Audi, and people want the updated parts we make/provide.

[VinnysS4]

absolutely! when a local indy who specializes in Audi charges $90 an hour and audi wants $135 an hour....its hard to go with the dealer when you are quoted more than 10 hours. it adds up fast. Plus if the parts that JHM sells are better than the dealer parts....why would anyone buy the dealer parts?

[mrkubanftw]

The 4.2 in the S4 has a pretty high failure rate, specially since the amount of S4s available in the states are pretty low. We have multiple cars in every month for timing chain jobs due to actual timing chain issues.

The Audi Dealership isn't going to get many change jobs due to the cost of going to Audi, and people want the updated parts we make/provide.

A short sighted view though. Of course you get many services considering its essentially what you are known for. Not to mention those are stats from one shop in all of the united states. If there were only one Audi in the whole of the US i'm sure they would be busy with this job too.

[Jake@JHM]

A short sighted view though. Of course you get many services considering its essentially what you are known for. Not to mention those are stats from one shop in all of the united states. If there were only one Audi in the whole of the US i'm sure they would be busy with this job too.

Not a short sided view. I was only talking about what we do here in little'ol Lathrop Califonia. We ship world wide and are shipping timing chain kits out every single day.

[FWP!]

It's a major design flaw, and has really tarnished the B6/B7 S4's reputation to the point where people just don't want to deal with them at all, and I've seen asking prices for them go into free-fall.

Why Audi chose to move from a belt to a chain, but still use brittle plastic guides everywhere is beyond me. Why not make them out of aluminum and have a skin of plastic to prevent wear on the chain, but so the guides don't disintegrate? They were "smart" enough to do that with the RS4 engine, but why skimp out on an engine that is very similar and risk that bad reputation? I'll never understand it. It's costing people thousand and thousands (and thousands.. and thousands.. and thousands) of dollars when the cars don't even have 100k on them yet, what a mess! Yes, you can do it yourself if you have the ability, a lift, the right tools, a few days to do the work, and the money, but there's NO WAY you should have to do major work like this on cars this old.

[mrkubanftw]

It's a major design flaw, and has really tarnished the B6/B7 S4's reputation to the point where people just don't want to deal with them at all, and I've seen asking prices for them go into free-fall.

Why Audi chose to move from a belt to a chain, but still use brittle plastic guides everywhere is beyond me. Why not make them out of aluminum and have a skin of plastic to prevent wear on the chain, but so the guides don't disintegrate? They were "smart" enough to do that with the RS4 engine, but why skimp out on an engine that is very similar and risk that bad reputation? I'll never understand it. It's costing people thousand and thousands (and thousands.. and thousands.. and thousands) of dollars when the cars don't even have 100k on them yet, what a mess! Yes, you can do it yourself if you have the ability, a lift, the right tools, a few days to do the work, and the money, but there's NO WAY you should have to do major work like this on cars this old.

I don't think the woes need to be revisited again. Fact is it happens to certain people and not others. Timing chains IN GENERAL are a service interval for any car/truck that has them. The guides are most often plastic and do eventually break. No they are not intended to fail at 30K. I would still rather have a timing chain over a belt. All day. Belts snap and most high performance engines are interference. Belts also don't give any indication that they are going to fail unless visually inspected or on the off chance timing jumps a tooth or two and that still can be detrimental. Using aluminum reinforced guides is good yes. But what about when the plastic cover breaks from heat stress (happens to most plastic guides again)? And now the chain is sawing its way through aluminum. Also not a good situation. Aluminum may have more yield strength but its also very soft.

[Jake@JHM]

I don't think the woes need to be revisited again. Fact is it happens to certain people and not others. Timing chains IN GENERAL are a service interval for any car/truck that has them. The guides are most often plastic and do eventually break. No they are not intended to fail at 30K. I would still rather have a timing chain over a belt. All day. Belts snap and most high performance engines are interference. Belts also don't give any indication that they are going to fail unless visually inspected or on the off chance timing jumps a tooth or two and that still can be detrimental. Using aluminum reinforced guides is good yes. But what about when the plastic cover breaks from heat stress (happens to most plastic guides again)? And now the chain is sawing its way through aluminum. Also not a good situation. Aluminum may have more yield strength but its also very soft.

It will happen with ALL eventually. At around 80k miles you can expect the lower center guide to already be at least cracked. We have seen them completely failed as low as 45k miles. The mechanical adjuster failures happen at different rates, but given the time it will fail due to the design.

[mrkubanftw]

The 4.2 in the S4 has a pretty high failure rate.

I would like to see those number quantified if you are going to make that claim. You also took my USA comparison and dropped worldwide shipments on me. So i guess then what is your annual sales of this product. We can put that against total production vehicles and get an actual percentage. My bet is its actually quite low. We would also need to factor out cars that had this service done as a standard service... because again.. they are wear items... they will break regardless of audi's engineering. It's just the 30K mile failures that generally don't sit well with customers.

[BCsniper]

....why would anyone buy the dealer parts?

...uh, because you have to. Since 95% of the parts required for a timing job are all Audi OEM parts. Get JHM's mech adjuster if you need it and the RS4 guide, but that's really it.

I want to see a company make ALL of the S4 guides out of metal with the strip of nylon on top instead of being all made of nylon like they are now (i.e. match what the RS4 has)

[VinnysS4]

Its not so much the fact that they fail at lower mileage intervals. My GTI VR6 engine had the chain come off and destroyed the engine. i ponied up and bought a new engine for it and detailed the shit out of it and put it in to sell it. That engine had the chains on the back side of the engine as well. THAT is my issue with it. Yes they are a maintenance item and will eventually wear out, just as everything in life that has plastic and is subjected to heat cycling and stress from a chain running over it. When you get quoted 4 to 10 thousand dollars for a "Maintenance" item that has been proven to be defective and rears its ugly head as low as 45K miles...... and will sometimes result in buying a new engine or some serious overhaul of the damaged engine...The fact that you cant simply put the car into service position and change them out in a matter of hours....that's the issue most B6/B7 S4 owners don't like. Yeah the amount of people beating down the dealership's door to get their timing chains done might not be a whole lot, but when you factor in the cars that never get driven, the ones that have been wrecked, and ones that have already had their chain service done and you compare that to the production numbers......I'd love to see the results. It still wont prevent me from buying the parts and pulling my engine out anyways because i want headers and thanks to audi, pulling the engine is in my near future because of this. However, this is just my .02 People can choose to not have the service done and thats fine. It's their car. After my GTI threw the timing chain 53 miles from home at 11 at night...yeah...ill be doing the service for my own peace of mind

[VinnysS4]

...uh, because you have to. Since 95% of the parts required for a timing job are all Audi OEM parts. Get JHM's mech adjuster if you need it and the RS4 guide, but that's really it.

I want to see a company make ALL of the S4 guides out of metal with the strip of nylon on top instead of being all made of nylon like they are now (i.e. match what the RS4 has)

So is it cheaper to buy all but the mechanical adjusters and upgraded guide from audi and peace the kit together or is it cheaper to just buy it from JHM?

[Jake@JHM]

I would like to see those number quantified if you are going to make that claim. You also took my USA comparison and dropped worldwide shipments on me. So i guess then what is your annual sales of this product. We can put that against total production vehicles and get an actual percentage. My bet is its actually quite low. We would also need to factor out cars that had this service done as a standard service... because again.. they are wear items... they will break regardless of audi's engineering. It's just the 30K mile failures that generally don't sit well with customers.

Look, you can pretend this issue doesn't exist, or not common all you want. This is a major issue especially for cars venturing over the 100k mark and that is a fact. We ship more CONUS than international. Did you know for the B6 s4 they only brought a little over 1k cars to the US each year? Then the B7 jumped to a few thousand. There aren't many cars and the amount of chain issues makes this pretty high.


NO CARS had this done as an annual service. These were supposed to be LIFETIME. We were the first company to actually assemble a "kit" with the required parts for the timing chain jobs. The other companies just followed along.

[mrkubanftw]

So is it cheaper to buy all but the mechanical adjusters and upgraded guide from audi and peace the kit together or is it cheaper to just buy it from JHM?

Audi does not sell upgraded adjusters. Only JHM does because its their product and they hold (or should) design control. Even if the only difference is a more tough material. As stated earlier the upgraded guides are simply RS4 guides. I don't know if audi updated the BOM for the S4 to include those part numbers but at some point i heard they did. JHM's kit is a good replacement and i would just go with that for ease of woes. My only gripe was to say failure rate is high. It's merely a matter that it's a bitch because it requires a pull. If it didn't require a pull, audi's and JHM's numbers on actual service work would be much lower. I understand why they put it on that back.

[Jake@JHM]

So is it cheaper to buy all but the mechanical adjusters and upgraded guide from audi and peace the kit together or is it cheaper to just buy it from JHM?

Unless you have some special discount, its not going to be cheaper from Audi.

[VinnysS4]

I will eventually buy the kit and do the service myself. This is a known failure on these engines. The VW GTI VR6 engines are known to have guides fail as well. been there. Until someone experiences catastrophic failure due to this issue, and has to pony up and fix it, its hard for someone to fork over that kind of cash on a "maintenance" item. However, the alternative of waiting until the chain jumps a tooth and enjoying the repair bill afterwards...read bye bye christmas gifts.... doesn't strike me as fun. Yeah i may have a unicorn and it could survive 200k+ miles. I'm just not willing to find out

[badger.]

I would like to see those number quantified if you are going to make that claim. You also took my USA comparison and dropped worldwide shipments on me. So i guess then what is your annual sales of this product. We can put that against total production vehicles and get an actual percentage. My bet is its actually quite low. We would also need to factor out cars that had this service done as a standard service... because again.. they are wear items... they will break regardless of audi's engineering. It's just the 30K mile failures that generally don't sit well with customers.

I disagree. This was never a standard service, as Jake already pointed out. If Audi made it a standard service at 80k that would probably sit better with people because at least Audi acknowledges it, but it would still suck to have a $6k "service" planned into the first half of a car's life. As the platform ages and more and more cars hit this territory, I bet JHM and the like will continue to sell the kits like hotcakes.

And it is a lot more than the 30k mile failures that don't sit well. I bet everyone at 80-100k+ has this in the back of their heads whether they want to or not. I did mine "preventative service" at 164k. But you can bet your ass it was always on my mind every time I turned that key, from that day at 105k when I first heard that slight rattle.

yeah some will go at 30k and some will go at 200k, but I bet you have a pretty sweet distribution curve centered at a mileage well below what the rest of the motor and car will last.

[mrkubanftw]

I disagree. This was never a standard service, as Jake already pointed out. If Audi made it a standard service at 80k that would probably sit better with people because at least Audi acknowledges it, but it would still suck to have a $6k "service" planned into the first half of a car's life. As the platform ages and more and more cars hit this territory, I bet JHM and the like will continue to sell the kits like hotcakes.

And it is a lot more than the 30k mile failures that don't sit well. I bet everyone at 80-100k+ has this in the back of their heads whether they want to or not. I did mine "preventative service" at 164k. But you can bet your ass it was always on my mind every time I turned that key, from that day at 105k when I first heard that slight rattle.

yeah some will go at 30k and some will go at 200k, but I bet you have a pretty sweet distribution curve centered at a mileage well below what the rest of the motor and car will last.

Lets lax off of what Audi says and what JHM says for a second here and reason with mechanics and common sense. I'm telling you a timing chain guide replacement is not only normal but to be expected at around 100k. Giving two shits less what it costs (yes it does matter but it's irrelevant) or what Audi does or doesn't say about it, officially by the way.

Here's a few examples that give your average mechanic a good idea of whats going on without even knowing about audi's deep dark secret.


Ford's most popular modular engine. (By the way i think their description of how the guides break is more likely the reason ours break and not that they just "fail". The tensioners when dirty don't seal properly which need to be re-pressurized at start up, allowing a slap, which snaps the guide. 9 times out of 10 I bet the guides crack at start-up and don't simply fatigue over time.)

I personally had a mustang with this issue and it failed at 60K along with my second gear trans syncro. (Shift fork guides to be more specific)

http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/115


Yota's bullet proof 2.4L (They claim average 135,000)

http://repairpal.com/failed-timing-c...ling-noise-805



MINI Coopers report 30-50k Sound familiar? (They also pinpoint the issue to poor oil quality which cause a rattle and later on a skip and a break)

http://blog.autoworkstx.com/2014/10/...-chain-issues/


Nissan VQ35's and 40's

http://gotaclassaction.com/nissan-no...ature-failure/


In short. No it will never last forever and Audi never actually expected this even though it might have been their official stance. Above that i doubt the engineers at Audi would agree with what Audi made public regarding the matter. Obviously 30k mile failures are bullshit but there could be a science to the madness that just hasn't yet been discovered. It could come down to VERY strict oil changes. Our massive oil sumps should be a hint of sorts. This car has only been around for 10 years and a few people posting info and mileage on a forum is hardly a good data sample to go off of. Either way take this as you will. Certainly do the service. Just don't be so gloomy towards Audi about it. At least you don't own a MccLaren F1. Pretty sure the BMW V12 in that sucker that's lined with gold to act as a better heat dissipator requires somewhere near $30,000 in required maintenance annually. You pay to play my friend. This includes $9,000 a set tires that are hand-washed for free :)

[VinnysS4]

This includes $9,000 a set tires that are hand-washed for free :)

lol

[RedS4avant]

Well... they are hand washed.

[VinnysS4]

I'd pay someone to hand wash my wheels. Probably not that much, but none-the-less. I pay my kids to wash my dishes ;)