So 3.0 AVK guys, let's talk leaking water pumps

**SlickFix** · 12-09-2015 12:23 PM

Hi gents,

My wife's Avant appears to be leaking coolant in front of the engine block, near the snub mount. When the engine is warm and running, I can see a small amount of coolant streaming down near the snub mount. When she parks at home or at work, it leaves a puddle under the car. Funnily enough, in the mistaken belief that it was yet another coolant reservoir tank that had sprung a leak, I installed a new one a few days ago. While that had slowed the leak down, it is still leaking and I'm losing coolant in the reservoir....although at a slower rate.

The water pump was replaced at 80k miles during the last timing belt job, and the car is at 124k now.

1. Is there anyway to confirm diagnosis without going into service position and removing the timing covers?

2. If it is the water pump leaking, is it fairly safe to limp along like this for another week while I acquire parts? She puts about 10 miles per day on the car.

3. Are there any other possible suspects I should consider, like hoses or head gasket? If it were the head gasket, wouldn't it be spraying white out the exhaust pipes?

4. Anyone know where to acquire a cheapish coolant pressure tester?

Btw, if it is the water pump, I'll be doing the whole timing job, since I'd already be 95% of the way there anyhoo. I have a feeling it's going to be time for some

!

**Let it snow** · 12-09-2015 12:42 PM

I have the 1.8 but here is a cheap pressure test.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...%28low-tech%29

**jaydeff** · 12-09-2015 12:48 PM

I can pretty much guarantee it's the water pump if it's leaking out the front and on top of the snub mount. Here's a pic of when my water pump went, although it was more than just leaking and pretty much pouring coolant out:

I think the only other source that could be leaking from the front of the engine could be the thermostat or the bleeder screw on the hard pipe to the thermostat, but I've never seen a 3.0 with either leaking. It's easy enough to check the thermostat by just removing the engine cover.

I'm not sure if it's safe to roll that way but you can probably keep the car from overheating if you keep the system topped off.

The water pump going after 44k is unusual but not unheard of. Mine went in less than 40k after the previous timing service.

**cschuster** · 12-09-2015 01:03 PM

Water pump for sure. It's probably just the seal - maybe you can get away with just installing a new gasket? I've done that with success on a few Subaru's with low mileage pumps that had no signs of failure.

**SlickFix** · 12-09-2015 01:04 PM

Thanks for the pic, jaydeff. That's exactly where I'm seeing the leak. I only seem to be losing about a 1/2 cup per day, so as long as I top it off, I think I'll try to hang on for another week. I took Christmas week off from work, so I'm hoping to be able to put it off until then.

**SlickFix** · 12-09-2015 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by cschuster

Water pump for sure. It's probably just the seal - maybe you can get away with just installing a new gasket?

Well, according to this DIY, it takes a bit of work just to get access to the pump. So unless someone else knows of a less intrusive method, I'll probably just do the whole timing belt job.

**cschuster** · 12-09-2015 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by SlickFix

Well, according to this DIY, it takes a bit of work just to get access to the pump. So unless someone else knows of a less intrusive method, I'll probably just do the whole timing belt job.

What I meant was that you could save yourself a few hundred bucks by just doing the seal and maybe the belt. I've got the cam and crank locks if you want them.

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**SJorge3442** · 12-09-2015 01:21 PM

Yeah, to do the pump its quite a bit of work. You pulled an engine before, so its totally doable for you, but budget 8 or so hours for your first time. Like I mention to everyone on here, I have the cam and crank locks and you're more than welcome to borrow them. Cshuster is a little closer to you, so shipping could be a day or so faster from him I'd imagine.

I bet the O-ring is causing the leak. I'd hate to tear it all apart to just replace the WP and then to have to do it again in a year or so for the next TB job. Also, might be a good time to replace both the tensioners as well, both the serp belt and the TB.

Also, I feel that Blauparts has the best kit for our car in regards to TB's. Thats just my opinion, others may feel differently.

**SlickFix** · 12-09-2015 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by SJorge3442

Yeah, to do the pump its quite a bit of work. You pulled an engine before, so its totally doable for you, but budget 8 or so hours for your first time. Like I mention to everyone on here, I have the cam and crank locks and you're more than welcome to borrow them. Cshuster is a little closer to you, so shipping could be a day or so faster from him I'd imagine.

I bet the O-ring is causing the leak. I'd hate to tear it all apart to just replace the WP and then to have to do it again in a year or so for the next TB job. Also, might be a good time to replace both the tensioners as well, both the serp belt and the TB.

Also, I feel that Blauparts has the best kit for our car in regards to TB's. Thats just my opinion, others may feel differently.

What I meant was that you could save yourself a few hundred bucks by just doing the seal and maybe the belt. I've got the cam and crank locks if you want them.

Excellent advice, guys!

I was looking at the Blauparts kit, and it looks very good. And, they are the only parts retailer where standard ground shipping arrives to me overnight. I live only about 100 miles from them.

One of you gentlemen will have a PM real soon to discuss those cam and crank locks. Thanks guys!

P.S. I replaced the serpentine belt, tensioner and roller last winter, so I should be set for those.

**JB5** · 12-09-2015 01:40 PM

I had the same issue since installing my water pump in 2013 so two years later it failed and i saw the stream of coolant coming out. the actual pulley/impeller got loose somehow, as if both heads pulled on it real hard to damage the bearing. you may be experiencing the same problem but yes, just do a timing belt service since you're there already.

btw, the camshaft tool goes in completely without needing to tap it too much, if you find the tool is not going in all the way you're 180 degrees off.
had that happen to me until my friend came by and saw what i had. funny thing is that i did the timing belt last time by myself and just didn't remember that.

**SJorge3442** · 12-09-2015 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by SlickFix

Excellent advice, guys!

I was looking at the Blauparts kit, and it looks very good. And, they are the only parts retailer where standard ground shipping arrives to me overnight. I live only about 100 miles from them.

One of you gentlemen will have a PM real soon to discuss those cam and crank locks. Thanks guys!

P.S. I replaced the serpentine belt, tensioner and roller last winter, so I should be set for those.

Not a problem. I have the tools riding around in my trunk currently, so I can ship them whenever you are planning on doing the job. If I take them out of the case, I think I can squeeze them, + the crank pin, +the exhaust cam tool all in the small priority mail box.

**OlivierA4** · 12-09-2015 03:37 PM

Slickfix,
sorry to hear that you have to work on your wife car during this stressful time of the year. I assume that you have a warm garage to work in side. otherwise, hold it off until it warmer. spring time is just around the corner (until we pass xmas first):)). don't forget to post some pictures like your vacuum line replacement. I thank you for your instructions every time i see my new blue silicone vacuum line. good luck with your fiddling and I am sure you enjoy doing it too.
SJorge, thank you very much for helping me as well.

**alpinestar180** · 12-09-2015 03:50 PM

Fwiw i am now putting a new head on my amb because some coolant leaked outbof my water pump allnover my timing belt. Not to scare you, but dont put it off too long.

**john_gonzo** · 12-09-2015 03:51 PM

Good answers above. Two comments:

I agree, eliminate the easy stuff. After popping off the plastic "V6 - 3.0" cover, the entire circumference of the thermostat housing (where it meets the block) can be inspected with a flashlight. Should check the big hose too.

Secondly, yes, drive it, but prep the driver for worst case.
- Monitor temp gauge, especially when car is not moving.
- If things get bad, crank heat to HI and fan to decent speed and ECON on (AC off).
- Stay in right lane at intersections where other lanes dictate long park times (in case you need to bail and get the car moving again to cool it down).
- Drive to minimize waiting at traffic lights and stop signs:
--- Time approaches for near-continuous movement
--- And/or commute at time of day with less traffic

I think I'll stop there. I'm starting to have flashbacks to all the beaters I've driven.

Happy wrenching!

**SlickFix** · 12-09-2015 04:51 PM

Haha, thanks john_gonzo. No worries, though. We have AAA, so if it overheats we'll just have her towed home.

But, I'll definitely check the thermostat and hoses before I commit to the water pump.

**deyrag** · 12-10-2015 10:33 AM

Just to give you something to look forward to :)

**SJorge3442** · 12-10-2015 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by deyrag

Just to give you something to look forward to :)

good call using ramps. Its always nice to have the front end up in the air so that you dont have to bend over so much.

**deyrag** · 12-10-2015 01:06 PM

It is well worth pulling the front end completely instead of just putting it in service position. You can find a nice little stool and sit down and work away with everything easily accessible.

**SJorge3442** · 12-10-2015 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by deyrag

It is well worth pulling the front end completely instead of just putting it in service position. You can find a nice little stool and sit down and work away with everything easily accessible.

Oh I agree. I did the same thing. Made life much better. You gotta drain the radiator anyway. This gives you the opportunity to just pull the top and bottom hose off and then get that clip out of the way.

**diuvic** · 12-10-2015 01:54 PM

Ok, before I go into my story, you have to realize that I was a brand new Audi noob when I did this. Not to mention car noob. So, you can safely drive around with a semi serious coolant leak on the 3.0 for about three months! (In my sole experience anyway. Please hold the pitchforks.) I can also safely tell you that you can mix green coolant with red without much engine trouble. (Seriously, please hold the pitchforks and DO NOT TRY THIS AT ALL.)

So back in the far away land of 4 years ago, I bought a Silver 3.0. Thing was (and still is) beautiful. Unfortunately, it developed a coolant leak two months after I bought it. Since I was cheap, I kept ignoring the issue until it got REALLY BAD. In my defense, it had a grey reservoir and it seemed like there was green coolant in it from the previous owner. My car kept leaking all over the place and I kept filling the reservoir with green coolant. I was leaking at work, at home, during my grocery shopping etc. It progressively got worse. More and more coolant started to pool under the car at the end of the day. One day, I get a call from one of the engineers from work and he told me that it seemed like someone had executed my car in the parking lot since there was so much coolant on the ground. I seriously think that about 80% of the coolant leaked out during that day alone. Being the prepared person that I am, I already had several green coolant jugs in my trunk. So, I filled it to the top and drove it immediately to an indy shop.

$1500 later, I had a car that had its timing belt, accessory belt, WATER PUMP, thermostat and tensioners replaced along with a full coolant flush and G12 coolant added. Now to answer your questions Slick: It might fail catastrophically unlike mine. But it probably will not. The only thing I can see to damage it beyond repair is if the coolant leaks out completely while someone is driving the car and the engine overheats.

**SlickFix** · 12-10-2015 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by deyrag

It is well worth pulling the front end completely instead of just putting it in service position. You can find a nice little stool and sit down and work away with everything easily accessible.

Indeed, this is exactly what I plan to do.

**cschuster** · 12-11-2015 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by SlickFix

Indeed, this is exactly what I plan to do.

Plus there's more room to use power tools to save some time. This is a good time to inspect the cam lobes for wear, especially the passenger exhaust one. Mine were fine, and there's some pictures on here somewhere of what they looked like - might have to look at my post history sometime in October.

**SlickFix** · 12-19-2015 04:13 PM

I started this job today, and I'm going real slow because I'm going to do a thorough DIY on this job. Unfortunately, I think I have some bad news, but I'm not sure *how* bad. That's where I need some advice.

After pulling the coil pack off cylinder number 5(driver side closest to the bumper), this is what I see:

That my friends, is coolant.

I'm still certain that I have a leaking water pump gasket(coolant leaking on the snub mount bolt and I can see moisture in the area around the water pump), but how could coolant get into the spark plug area? Does this mean I might have a cracked block or a bad head gasket? Should I suck the coolant out of the spark plug area before I pull the plug?

No other cylinders have coolant in them, if that helps. I've never dealt with head gaskets or cracked blocks, so I could use a little help, guys.

I've got a full timing belt kit sitting here, along with the tools to do the job. Where do I go from here? I assume I need to know whether or not I have a cracked block/bad head gasket before proceeding?

**SJorge3442** · 12-19-2015 04:36 PM

Hmm. That's a strange place for coolant to be chilling. Firsts things first, your block is fine. That's under the heads which is under the spark plug hole. It is indeed possible that the head has an issue like a crack that is above the spark plug hole, which could cause this small collection of coolant.

Other than that, I can't think of anything else that could do this. Even a head gasket issue couldn't cause coolant to be there. You could try pressurizing the cooling system and try to find a leak/crack that way. That's where I would start. Due to your bad WP o ring, I bet all the pressure would just blow through that area before getting to your spark plug area.

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**john_gonzo** · 12-19-2015 04:44 PM

How about this: Car moves down the road. Air moves through the radiator and across the front of the engine, carries coolant from water pump leak up onto the valve cover where it seeps down into the spark plug well. Crazy talk?

**SlickFix** · 12-19-2015 04:47 PM

You don't suppose that if I spilled some coolant while filling up the reservoir tank that it could slip past the coil pack and end up down there? That's the only way I can see if getting into there, after reading your explanation. As a matter of fact, even if the combustion chamber was full of coolant, it wouldn't be able to get past the thread of the plug, right? There is no sign of coolant in the oil, either.

I'm beginning to think that this is the result of spilled coolant while filling the reservoir, now that I think of it. I mean, as far as I know, the only thing that can get into that area would be oil from failing valve cover gaskets, but they are still solid. You can even see the black RTV sealant that I put on them the last time I replaced the valve cover gaskets.

I'm still willing to accept that something more profound is going on besides the leaking water pump, but I think I'm just paranoid.

**SlickFix** · 12-19-2015 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by john_gonzo

How about this: Car moves down the road. Air moves through the radiator and across the front of the engine, carries coolant from water pump leak up onto the valve cover where it seeps down into the spark plug well. Crazy talk?

Makes perfect sense to me! Sorry for the Chicken Little talk, guys. I'm just going to proceed with the timing belt/water pump job and enjoy life. DIY will be coming in less than a week.

**SJorge3442** · 12-19-2015 05:25 PM

Yeah I think youre probably fine. Do the TB and you should be good to go!

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**diuvic** · 12-19-2015 05:32 PM

I really hope that coolant is nothing major. If you could make a DIY with a ton of pictures and step by step instructions, I would be so happy. The audiworld one isn't "complete" in that sense. Good luck slick!

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**SlickFix** · 12-19-2015 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by diuvic

I really hope that coolant is nothing major. If you could make a DIY with a ton of pictures and step by step instructions, I would be so happy. The audiworld one isn't "complete" in that sense. Good luck slick!

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Yessir, this will be my most ambitious DIY on Audizine. This one will be useful for everything from changing the air filter to changing plugs, to, well, the timing belt.

**SlickFix** · 12-19-2015 07:22 PM

Btw, I gotta give a special shout out to SJorge3442 for lending me his timing component tools for free! Thank you, sir!

**SJorge3442** · 12-19-2015 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by SlickFix

Btw, I gotta give a special shout out to SJorge3442 for lending me his timing component tools for free! Thank you, sir!

At least someone is using them! Been sitting on my shelf for about 2 years now. Plenty of people on here (you and Spike, namely) have helped me out quite a bit since I got my 3.0. Just paying it back.

For anyone else, my cam locks (plus the crank pin and exhaust cam preload tool) are always up for grabs if you need them. If your a respectful member on here, I'll send it out ASAP.
If your new, or not established, all I ask is for a deposit to protect my investment on the tools.

Time to get this 3.0 back in good shape! Can't wait to see what Borat meme you post once the jobs done.

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**diuvic** · 12-20-2015 02:25 AM

Are you also putting in new cam seals? What about a crank seal? I'm fairly sure this is where my oil leaks are coming from. If you are, make sure to super detail those sections haha.

Not all kits come with these deals I believe. But, it's something you might do since you need to take almost everything apart like the timing belt job to access them. Can't wait for the DIY!

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**deyrag** · 12-20-2015 06:39 AM

I have a whole engine in pieces sitting in my garage so if you need some up close detail shots you can't get in the car just let me know. Good luck, I did the belt swap when I put in my new engine, once you get started it is really not bad. The scarey part for me was loosening the cam gear bolts, they are tight and you are relying on the cam tools to hold everything in place while you lean on a breaker bar.

**SJorge3442** · 12-20-2015 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Spike00513

I think my front crank seal is leaking, I'd do it. Rear (PTFE) was easy.
I posted about Fluidampr coming to market with a new V6 damper, got no response. Fits 2.8L, 3.0L, and popular 2.7T. Clicky
They claim the stock dampers wear out over time and are rubber-material, which to me begs the question -
Whether OEM or Fluidampr silicone, should it be replaced during such a job, while stuff is apart and accessible?
I wonder if either, especially the latter, would make any difference in driving. Maybe the 3L is more balanced than I4, but how much?
Even w/ DMF, low RPM causes shaking

The 3.0 is balanced really well. I wouldn't waste money on the fluid damper. Also, due to cost, I wouldn't replace this when the car is apart. Same for the crank and cam seals. If they aren't leaking, don't touch them. Getting to them when/*IF they start leaking isn't too bad. Not worth the risk of installing wrong and causing something to start leaking, that wasn't leaking to begin with. I've had cars that are much older with more miles that never had a seal leak. Hell I had a 87 Dakota with 190k which was 24 years old when I got rid of it that never leaked on me.

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**SlickFix** · 12-21-2015 12:47 PM

So guys, I'm on the fence here. I've got the car into service position, but I'm seriously contemplating taking the entire front of the car off. However, unless my analysis is incorrect, that means I need to disconnect an A/C line on the bottom passenger side of the radiator...along with 4 Tiptronic cooling lines(2 on each side).

I did that on my B6 S4 when I pulled the motor & tranny, but I'm not so sure that I want to go through all of that again for this job. Sjorge and deyrag, you guys did that, but are you manual transmission? If so, I assume that all you had to disconnect was the A/C line?

While I go in search of hose pinch off clips, I'll entertain opinions from you gentlemen, and anyone else who wants to chime in.

**SJorge3442** · 12-21-2015 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by SlickFix

So guys, I'm on the fence here. I've got the car into service position, but I'm seriously contemplating taking the entire front of the car off. However, unless my analysis is incorrect, that means I need to disconnect an A/C line on the bottom passenger side of the radiator...along with 4 Tiptronic cooling lines(2 on each side).

I did that on my B6 S4 when I pulled the motor & tranny, but I'm not so sure that I want to go through all of that again for this job. Sjorge and deyrag, you guys did that, but are you manual transmission? If so, I assume that all you had to disconnect was the A/C line?

While I go in search of hose pinch off clips, I'll entertain opinions from you gentlemen, and anyone else who wants to chime in.

Yeah 6-speed here. For the AC condensor, just gently slide that under the car. I believe the AudiWorld DIY states to do that. For automatics, I forgot that you guys had tranny coolers. You could probably get away with swinging the carrier out of the way, but not off in its entirety.

**cschuster** · 12-21-2015 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by SlickFix

So guys, I'm on the fence here. I've got the car into service position, but I'm seriously contemplating taking the entire front of the car off. However, unless my analysis is incorrect, that means I need to disconnect an A/C line on the bottom passenger side of the radiator...along with 4 Tiptronic cooling lines(2 on each side).

I did that on my B6 S4 when I pulled the motor & tranny, but I'm not so sure that I want to go through all of that again for this job. Sjorge and deyrag, you guys did that, but are you manual transmission? If so, I assume that all you had to disconnect was the A/C line?

While I go in search of hose pinch off clips, I'll entertain opinions from you gentlemen, and anyone else who wants to chime in.

I also have a 6 speed. Do what ^ said. I left most of the stuff on the driver side attached and just swung the whole one side out, supporting it with a box. No disconnecting A/C lines. Just don't kick over the drain pan like I did.

**deyrag** · 12-21-2015 01:43 PM

I left the AC lines attached and just swung it under the car out of the way. You have to kind of manipulate the lines a little to get it to flip over the right way and maybe having it on ramps gave me the extra room I needed.

I have a 6-speed as well but still had oil cooler lines to disconnect. A used spark plug made the perfect size stopper.

**SJorge3442** · 12-21-2015 01:56 PM

We all have 6 speeds, which leads me to believe that the tranny cooler lines are gonna be the issue for him. Now that I remember, I too had to remove the power steering cooler (why is this even necessary) and then I just plugged the soft lines with a few bolts I had lying around and topped off when I first started the car again.

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