Its getting cold - Let's talk Gear Oil

[walky_talky20]

Hey guys, it is getting a bit nippy out there, seems like this is a popular time to discuss some gear oils.

After a long time of recommending the Fuchs Titan Sintofluid 75W80, I've finally put some in my own car.

<Boring Details>
Since my 5-speed swap, my transmission has always been really tough to shift when cold - especially 2nd gear. Most cold mornings I just skip 2nd gear altogether. The synchros are pretty worn, quite expected on a transmission with over 325k miles. It had what I can only expect was either the original 1990 Coupe Quattro gear oil, or some generic 75W90 put in at some point in the mid 90's. When it was warm it would shift pretty decent. I couldn't go full granny-shifting on it - aggressive downshifts would require double clutching - but upshifts were mostly pretty great. When it was cold, it was a different story. I'd be lucky to get 2nd gear smoothly on a perfectly timed upshift, let alone a downshift. If it did go in it felt like crap, notchy and grindy - not good. All the other gears would be notchy too.

I purchased the Titan gear oil (from Scotty at Advanced Automotion) quite some time ago, but had to fix all my leaky seals first. The last one was the shifter shaft seal. What an absolute bugger that thing was. Had to torch the thing to get it out.
</Boring Details>

After driving with the Titan Sintofluid 75W80 for a couple weeks with temps around 30F in the morning, I can definitely say there is a marked improvement. I can always get 2nd gear when I want it now, and it's much, much smoother going in. All the other gears feel better, too. I can also shift easier and quicker at high rpm. The delay waiting for the shifter to go in is gone. I can actually shift in time for the revs to match in the next gear (instead of being late and jolting the car every time). The responsiveness is improved as I can keep more turbo RPMs through a shift and the boost comes on quicker. Lots of great things. The car is more fun to drive.

Now, it doesn't quite feel like a completely different transmission - but it definitely feels like a much less annoying version of the transmission I've had. I was really contemplating swapping in a spare FWD trans I have and rebuilding this one. But now I don't think I'll need to. Thanks again, Scotty!

<Extra Info>
Here is a thread where some various other popular gears oils are discussed (MT 90, Royal Purple, Motul something-or-other, etc), along with some handy charts comparing their viscosity.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ighlight=titan

[coolgraymemo]

Redline MT-90 made shifting into second really difficult when cold (ambient temperature < 50*). The original fluid with 140,000 miles felt better overall.

[BlazinB5]

Thanks for the post. I've got three bottles of MOTUL MOTYLGEAR lying around, so I'm going to end up throwing those in pretty soon. Second gear is pretty notchy when cold, so I'm hoping it's as smooth in the cold as Fuchs Titan..

https://www.europaparts.com/motul-mo...l-1-liter.html.

[LA4]

I picked up Redline MTL on Black Friday.... now I'm hesitant about running it after reading the thread you linked to.... :/

Definitely gotta change the fluid this winter, 2nd gear really sucked last year. But I don't want to run something that isn't good for the gearbox.

Maybe I should just return the MTL and buy the Titan or Royal Purple.

[Believer]

Redline MT-90 made shifting into second really difficult when cold (ambient temperature < 50*). The original fluid with 140,000 miles felt better overall.

This is my experience to the letter. Switched back to fresh OEM.

[Seerlah]

Redline always had bad reviews. Never once had hard shifting into second with amsoil fluid. Picked up the car with 107k on it and what I assume original fluid. Changed it after first winter and been running the same fluid even after tranny swap (new fluid, of course). I also run the amsoil severe gear oil in the rear diff. Tranny has some redline shockproof mixed in.

[Wrath And Tears]

I run a mix of redline MTL and MT90, never had any issues shifting wise at any temps, that being said the car never sees below 30F but has seen up to 120F in stop and go.

Issues with shifting and temps with one oil over another points to worn syncros, the lighter fluid just hides the issue. But who wants to tear the trans apart when a different fluid does the trick, I wouldn't.

I've been meaning to try out different fluids but I've been pretty lazy about car work lately.

[Avant Nate]

I run a mix of redline MTL and MT90, never had any issues shifting wise at any temps, that being said the car never sees below 30F but has seen up to 120F in stop and go.

Issues with shifting and temps with one oil over another points to worn syncros, the lighter fluid just hides the issue. But who wants to tear the trans apart when a different fluid does the trick, I wouldn't.

I've been meaning to try out different fluids but I've been pretty lazy about car work lately.

Same experience here. I have the Redline MT90 plus a little shockproof, and I only notice slight hesitation when going into 2nd with temps below 30F. I generally drive pretty passively when first driving, especially when colder, but by the time I'm warmed up, and getting on it, shifts just fine.

[GOODBYNAAIR]

just got my car back up and running and went with Red Line MTL 75W80 GL4 and 2nd is a little sticky when cold. i drove about 60 miles (40 F°) yesterday on the fresh fluid and after about 10- 15 minuets of run time 2nd was fine again. I will most likely replace this soon due to this being a used trans and i Don't know have much TLC it had before I got it. a flush would probably be good for it.

looking foreword to what this thread brings to light.

[Rodgman15]

All I know is, even the factory Audi stuff isn't "thin" enough to handle the temps up here in Fargo. When it gets good and cold (-10/-30), I have trouble finding gears no matter what until it's warm.

[walky_talky20]

I haven't compared the Fuchs Titan to OEM directly, but it is very thin. Pours like water. Seems fairly comparable in viscosity to Dexron III ATF to me.

According to the specs, it is actually a bit thinner than the OEM G-052-911 fluid that it is made to replace. If you need it a little thinner, I'd probably feel comfortable mixing in some Jetta FWD gear oil (G-052-171) or the Fuchs Titan equivalent (SintoFluid FE SAE 75W). Probably 1 part of that to 2 parts Titan 75W80. I know the S4 guys are known to mix the OEM "911" and "171" fluids half and half to get their 01E's shifting smoother. Here's how those various fluids stack up:

VI /Vis@40C /Vis@100C
152 119 17.5 = Royal Purple Max Gear 75W90
185 90.0 15.6 = Redline MT-90 75-90 GL-4
177 84.5 14.7 = AMSOIL MTG 75-90 GL-4
222 72.6 15.2 = Motul Gear 300 75-90 GL-4/-5
..... 76.6 14.2 = VW G052-911 (Audi quattro OEM FILL)
183 56.2 10.6 = Redline MTL 70-80 GL-4
175 49.8 9.4 = Fuchs Titan SintoFluid 75W80
208 41.6 9.1 = Penzoil Synchromesh trans fluid
119 40.8 6.7 = Fuchs Titan SintoFluid FE SAE 75W
..... 31.2 6.5 = VW G-052-171-A2 (Jetta FWD OEM FILL)

[bmos]

I might have to try out that Titan gear oil, my Redline fluid is also pretty thick when the temps get down there. I'm always able to find all my gears but second feels like the trans is filled with wet cement.

[redline380]

I was planning on doing all sorts of stuff to get ready for winter since I commute 175 miles every day. Changing the gear oil was second on the list, only to putting snow tires on.

And then I realized I row through the gears twice and then it is fifth until everything is nice and warmed up. Would you still say it is worth it for me?

[bmos]

I was planning on doing all sorts of stuff to get ready for winter since I commute 175 miles every day. Changing the gear oil was second on the list, only to putting snow tires on.

And then I realized I row through the gears twice and then it is fifth until everything is nice and warmed up. Would you still say it is worth it for me?

I doubt it's any safer for your gearbox, sounds like you're already treating it well. It's probably more of a convenience/aesthetic thing.

[Seerlah]

Viscosity not being part of this post, but pure quality of oil. I never had grinding into 2nd with amsoil. I see NE (ny/nj/ct) tri- state area weather. So this is the same weather PA people see (talking to you Keith). Amsoil really is some quality stuff. I am now also running Amsoil PS fluid .

Amsoil is not really recognised because they don't pay to be. Only time they do is as sponsors for real motor events, where people recognise them and know their quality. For example, these companies pay to be on the vw/audi approved oil list. Amsoil won't do that, so they aren't on the approved oil list. But their oil is better than most on that list (a good 90%).

This is all opinion based (about quality over others). But I see threads like this and am so glad I run Amsoil. There was another b5 guy years back, and he and I were on the same page. He also ran all amsoil fluids, so we both understood. It isnt cheap, though. Even built my engine with their assembly lube.

[GOODBYNAAIR]

Viscosity not being part of this post, but pure quality of oil. I never had grinding into 2nd with amsoil. I see NE (ny/nj/ct) tri- state area weather. So this is the same weather PA people see (talking to you Keith). Amsoil really is some quality stuff. I am now also running Amsoil PS fluid .

Amsoil is not really recognised because they don't pay to be. Only time they do is as sponsors for real motor events, where people recognise them and know their quality. For example, these companies pay to be on the vw/audi approved oil list. Amsoil won't do that, so they aren't on the approved oil list. But their oil is better than most on that list (a good 90%).

This is all opinion based (about quality over others). But I see threads like this and am so glad I run Amsoil. There was another b5 guy years back, and he and I were on the same page. He also ran all amsoil fluids, so we both understood. It isnt cheap, though. Even built my engine with their assembly lube.

Seerlah, is this what you run?
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produc...?code=MTGQT-EA

[Seerlah]

Thay would be it. Then severe gear gl5 oil in the rear diff.

[seanf86]

I run a mix of redline MTL and MT90, never had any issues shifting wise at any temps, that being said the car never sees below 30F but has seen up to 120F in stop and go.

Issues with shifting and temps with one oil over another points to worn syncros, the lighter fluid just hides the issue. But who wants to tear the trans apart when a different fluid does the trick, I wouldn't.

I've been meaning to try out different fluids but I've been pretty lazy about car work lately.

I run 1L MTL and 2L MT90 and cold weather shifting sucks, we see all the way down to -35 C ambient temps in winter and I can't find second gear for the life of me unless I double clutch at low speeds and bog the engine in second. My b6 5mt with the Fuchs oil is smooth shifting all the time, once I mile out the redline I'm dumping it for Fuchs in my b5 as well.

[Wrath And Tears]

I run 1L MTL and 2L MT90 and cold weather shifting sucks, we see all the way down to -35 C ambient temps in winter and I can't find second gear for the life of me unless I double clutch at low speeds and bog the engine in second. My b6 5mt with the Fuchs oil is smooth shifting all the time, once I mile out the redline I'm dumping it for Fuchs in my b5 as well.

If you ran straight MTL instead of mostly the super thick MT90 I doubt you would be having issues and the MTL is pretty much the same as the Fuchs.

[GOODBYNAAIR]

I'm running all MTL 75 80 and at 40 F 2nd was a little sticky until it warmed up 10 minutes.

[Wrath And Tears]

Thats a sign your 2nd gear syncro is in a bad way, totally possible switching to the Amsoil (or even Fuchs for the guys thinking about that) could help, if its truely higher quality and the same thickness or thinner than the Redline.

At 150k with like a 50/50 MTL MT90 mix even in 30F ambient temps I can shift to 2nd and 3rd right after starting out, with no harshness or grating. Not a redline rep, don't even like the fluid that much, its just extremely cheap and my shop normally has some laying around.

How do you guys drive when you have difficulty getting it into gear? I know it doesn't get that cold where I live, but within 4 minutes of starting my car I'm on the freeway getting ready to putt-putt up a large hill. Usually going 45 mph in 4th while 65 mph traffic rushes by because my engine oil is still cold and the drivers manual tells me to stay below 3k and I assume out of boost (going slow on the hill is normal because its part of the on-ramp).

I couldn't imagine having to drive around the block just to get into second gear, or having a sticky 2nd for 10 minutes. I would probably use the opportunity to rebuild my first manual transmission, or if I didn't feel like that sourcing a low milage used trans from a junkyard / used parts supplier. But for those unwilling, if changing from one brand to another can really fix things then that's awesome.

[LA4]

How do you guys drive when you have difficulty getting it into gear? I know it doesn't get that cold where I live, but within 4 minutes of starting my car I'm on the freeway getting ready to putt-putt up a large hill. Usually going 45 mph in 4th while 65 mph traffic rushes by because my engine oil is still cold and the drivers manual tells me to stay below 3k and I assume out of boost (going slow on the hill is normal because its part of the on-ramp).

I couldn't imagine having to drive around the block just to get into second gear, or having a sticky 2nd for 10 minutes. I would probably use the opportunity to rebuild my first manual transmission, or if I didn't feel like that sourcing a low milage used trans from a junkyard / used parts supplier. But for those unwilling, if changing from one brand to another can really fix things then that's awesome.

I can't speak for everybody of course, but I usually just shift from 1st to 3rd. By the time I need to stop and go through the gears again (approx. 1.5 miles down the road) 2nd gear is fine. <4 minutes

Also in the winter I usually like to let the car idle for a couple of minutes before setting off. That's not even an Audi thing, I do the same in my Miata which goes through all of the gears fine regardless of temp.

Just reeeealy don't like the idea of immediately driving off within 5 seconds of starting the car when it's 0 degrees outside, regardless of what the manual says.

[Wrath And Tears]

Alright that makes sense, thanks for sharing your routine.

[nynoah]

Stock Audi transmission oil FTW

[GOODBYNAAIR]

Thats a sign your 2nd gear syncro is in a bad way, totally possible switching to the Amsoil (or even Fuchs for the guys thinking about that) could help, if its truely higher quality and the same thickness or thinner than the Redline.

At 150k with like a 50/50 MTL MT90 mix even in 30F ambient temps I can shift to 2nd and 3rd right after starting out, with no harshness or grating. Not a redline rep, don't even like the fluid that much, its just extremely cheap and my shop normally has some laying around.

How do you guys drive when you have difficulty getting it into gear? I know it doesn't get that cold where I live, but within 4 minutes of starting my car I'm on the freeway getting ready to putt-putt up a large hill. Usually going 45 mph in 4th while 65 mph traffic rushes by because my engine oil is still cold and the drivers manual tells me to stay below 3k and I assume out of boost (going slow on the hill is normal because its part of the on-ramp).

I couldn't imagine having to drive around the block just to get into second gear, or having a sticky 2nd for 10 minutes. I would probably use the opportunity to rebuild my first manual transmission, or if I didn't feel like that sourcing a low milage used trans from a junkyard / used parts supplier. But for those unwilling, if changing from one brand to another can really fix things then that's awesome.

I just put this trans in used to me but when I say sticky (sticky is just a slight hang up ) thats only on a hard shift, I did let the car warm up for 5 minutes before driving then drove easy for a few, warm the oil up the rest of the way. I know the trans has some miles but that's a used trans for you. Hard shifts only happen after the oil gets to 150+
Either way it's much better than the trans I just swapped it it for.

[coolgraymemo]

Bumping this up.

I need to change the fluid on my Avant (@ 105,000 miles). Undecided between Fuchs Titan ($50) and OEM fill ($90).

[tar]

I run motul gear300 socal temps
It goes for best
Fuchs
Oem
Gear300

I went motul just cuz friends shop had it and hooked it up.

[walky_talky20]

How do you guys drive when you have difficulty getting it into gear? ....I couldn't imagine having to drive around the block just to get into second gear, or having a sticky 2nd for 10 minutes.

Mainly by being awesome and matching the shaft speeds like a boss. Not regular downshift rev matching here. With a crappy synchro and cold gear oil, it is quite necessary to match the speeds on the UPSHIFT. You have to time it just right. The temperature of the gear oil changes the necessary timing at a pretty rapid rate, too. When it's really cold, you have to shift it fast. Then slower as things warm up (warmer gear oil spins down the input shaft more gradually). If you miss it, you have to double clutch and rev to get the input shaft speed back up so you can try again.

I have a buddy who shifts his '92 Toyota pickup's fully manual 4WD transfer case from Low to Hi range ON THE FLY at 25mph (effectively giving him a 10-speed truck). Talk about matching shaft speeds like a boss. I should get a video of him doing it, but he makes it look like nothing, so it would be a pretty boring video. lol

[coolgraymemo]

I'm about to order Fuchs fluid (from Pelican Parts), but came across this Febi Bilstein Fluid for $10 a liter. It's supposed to be OEM. Any info on it?

[Wrath And Tears]

My shop uses a lot of Febi/Bilstein fluid. It is oem for most MBZ transmissions. Don't know how it works with ours. We also use F/B for MBZ power steering and suspension fluid. I use their version of audi coolant for my car.


Edit: Sorry for no real info about the trans fluid. I can say their fluid products are good quality, perhaps even high quality.

[tar]

Pm Scotty and ask about the bilstein.
I think it would be fine and oem is known as 2nd best fluid.

[nynoah]

If OEM is the second what is the first again? So many named above it gets confusing.

I am a big proponent of OEM myself. It works and works long term.

[tar]

Fuchs titan is known as the best. Honestly I'm sure there's 20+ brands/oils that would have no issues. I think the downside to oem is cost. Motul cost 90-100 for rear diff and trans. I have a tendency to lean motul on alot just because it semi easy to find vs oem stuff.

[melomandn]

Another vote for Fuchs Titan here.

Put it in my B5 a couple years ago when we were right around 0 degrees for a solid month. Before, getting into second in the morning was next to impossible. After, I could get up and leave with no problems. Overall a great improvement, and I didnt come across any negatives.

[GOODBYNAAIR]

Im going to flush my Redline MTL out this spring Im stuck between Amsoil and Fuchs Titan Im going to do 2 quarts and one of Shock proof. Questing for other using shockproof do you use the lightweight or ultra light?

[coolgraymemo]

I'm probably going to order Fuchs when I get home. I think Pelican Parts is the cheapest at ~ $55 shipped.

[ricekikr]

I'd skip the Motul Gear 300 if your having problems with cold shifting. It feels like its too slippery when tranny oil isnt warmed up. 85f ambient temp.

My 01e needs to be warmed up a fair bit before i can power shift (both with OEM and JHM carbon synchros). Takes me about 30min-1hr before it warms up enough to powershift. It won't warm up with the engine idling for 1hr, needs to be driven/shifted a lot.

Lost a 3-4 collar because of this (not a common 01e problem, synchros weren't worn).

Then rebuilt it using full Jhm rebuild parts and will mis-power-shift 1-2 if not fully warmed up. I can still shift fast but not as fast when fully warmed up.

This is with the updated collar+carbon already broken-in 1000 miles.

Reverse also grinds when first started up in the morning.

It does shift great when fully warmed up.

** 01e shifting sucks in general compared to 01a. But similar synchros so theories.

Had no shifting problems with my 01a and 300. Probably just coincindence, but i did strip 4th gear when i was using 300. Can't remember if it was already whining when i still had the oem fluid. Stripped (lost all teeth) 4th in part throttle/crusing already fully engaged not shifting.

Edit: there's no problem with granny shifting even when first started in the morning. Except reverse when shifted just right after starting and with power shifting.

[Wrath And Tears]

I'd skip the Motul Gear 300 if your having problems with cold shifting. It feels like its too slippery when tranny oil isnt warmed up. 85f ambient temp.

My 01e needs to be warmed up a fair bit before i can power shift (both with OEM and JHM carbon synchros). Takes me about 30min-1hr before it warms up enough to powershift. It won't warm up with the engine idling for 1hr, needs to be driven/shifted a lot.

Lost a 3-4 collar because of this (not a common 01e problem, synchros weren't worn).

Then rebuilt it using full Jhm rebuild parts and will mis-power-shift 1-2 if not fully warmed up. I can still shift fast but not as fast when fully warmed up.

This is with the updated collar+carbon already broken-in 1000 miles.

Reverse also grinds when first started up in the morning.

It does shift great when fully warmed up.

** 01e shifting sucks in general compared to 01a. But similar synchros so theories.

Had no shifting problems with my 01a and 300. Probably just coincindence, but i did strip 4th gear when i was using 300. Can't remember if it was already whining when i still had the oem fluid. Stripped (lost all teeth) 4th in part throttle/crusing already fully engaged not shifting.

Edit: there's no problem with granny shifting even when first started in the morning. Except reverse when shifted just right after starting and with power shifting.

"Powershifting" (dafuq you aren't a race car driver) would only increase the stress on the syncros, just as a short shifter puts more stress on the syncros. So if you are over stressing the syncros then you will have issues like what you describe. Pretty much zero relation to type of fluid used unless you are using completely wrong fluid. You should be able to "Powershift" as soon as you are supposed to hit the boost, as in once oil temp is over 150. I am correct that by "Powershifting" you mean you super quickly and rapidly yank on the gear stick and throw it into the next gear as hard as you can right?

With an automatic you have the torque converter that constantly spins and generates a large amount of heat to heat up the trans fluid. With a manual you don't have that, so the only real way to warm up the fluid is with driving.

[ricekikr]

"Powershifting" (dafuq you aren't a race car driver) would only increase the stress on the syncros, just as a short shifter puts more stress on the syncros. So if you are over stressing the syncros then you will have issues like what you describe.

1. That's the only way to keep in boost when shifting to 2nd. Unless you prefer k03 then yeah I agree with you.
2. Lol when has it become a requirement to be a race car driver to keep in boost?

Pretty much zero relation to type of fluid used unless you are using completely wrong fluid. You should be able to "Powershift" as soon as you are supposed to hit the boost, as in once oil temp is over 150. I am correct that by "Powershifting" you mean you super quickly and rapidly yank on the gear stick and throw it into the next gear as hard as you can right?

3. I also thought that. But as per my actual car. As soon as engine is warmed up (yep while driving/shifting not idling, based on oil temp not water temp), try to power shift (yep to keep in boost in 2nd), guaranteed mis-shift. Try doing that after a couple more minutes of driving = perfect shift. No hardware change, no boost change, no timing change, not even engine temp change, the only thing I can think of that changed is gear oil temp & transmission itself temp (which I cant verify since I dont have a tranny oil temp gauge).

4. Also reverse gear. No way am I powershifting that. Grinds when shifting it the very first time after starting a cold engine (again ambient temps around 85f). But never grinds once driven for at least a couple minutes.

But yeah I agree with you about the gear oil type. All I meant was Motul 300 needs much warm up before performing properly (part of the threads main topic). Which isn't really possible in the dragstrip (where I locked up my 3-4 completely, but to be fair it was already fubared due to locking it up at the street). Lined up after driving around the pit a bit even but had cooled down due to waiting to be lined up (roughly 30min, can't really drive around or I'd lose my queue)

[walky_talky20]

RiceKikr, I think you need to thinner oil in your 01E. I've heard of guys running half OEM "911" and half FWD Jetta G52 "171" fluid to get a thinner mixture. That would be as thin as I'd want to go. I'd probably start at a 2:1 ratio, myself.