Help with cam chain timing alignment/slack in chain

[quattro guy]

so my brother's b7 was leaking coolant from the the head. took out the head and sent it over to the machine shop to get it machined. well when he sent it, he didn't remove the camshafts or chain or the cover for that matter. when they were done they had tore everything apart. pulled out the cams. well it was interesting next few days because of all the reading we've been doing and we cant seem to get it to align just right. for anyone that is wondering if I searched, YES, extensively I might add. we do everything as all the diy explain and every bit of information we could gather but we cant get it to sit just right. our main problem is that when everything is installed, the chain has slack on the bottom of the tensioner and the top is so tight that the tensioner does not even move, it stays all the way down. that is basically were we are stuck. we can get it to the right timing according to the info that we could manage to gather but the chain slacks at the bottom. ive seen many videos and pics on other post where the chain tensioner is actually tensioning the chain on the top portion while everything is lined up and timing lines up. does anyone know or anyone who can point me in the right direction as to how I can overcome this endeavor? we have tried so many times but we keep failing. also I have pictures but I do not know how to post them, and I would love if someone can chime in and tell me in laymen's terms how I can upload a damn picture so I can show you guys the struggle that we have been battling for the past week! please help as its a daily driver and its been ripped apart for 2 weeks about to start its 3rd tomorrow.

[aluthman]

I'm trying to understand exactly what your issue is, and I'm wondering if it is the same thing I was seeing with my head. I pulled my head to replace valve guides and it looked like my chain tensioner was fully collapsed and there was no slack. As it turns out, it was just the tension on the cams from the valve springs that was causing it to look like this. If I put a wrench on the exhaust cam bolt and rotated the cam slightly, the tension was temporarily relaxed and it allowed the chain to slack a bit and the tensioner to do its job. Here is a video showing the chain relaxing when I turn the cam just enough to take the tension off it:



Maybe this will help, maybe it won't. Best of luck.

[quattro guy]

That is pretty much exactly whats going on, only thing is that you dont have slack on the bottom part of the tensioner and i do. As you did, i rotate the exhaust side and then gives it enough slack for the tensioner to rise but as soon as i stop applying pressure it goes back to beign tense on the top part of the tensiner and slack at the bottom. If you can, please can you tell me on how i can post a picture as it will help much more than my describing abilities.

[aluthman]

Sign up for an account at photobucket.com. It's free. Then you can click the upload button and select pictures from your computer to upload. Once uploaded, click on the picture you want and off to the right will be a list of HTML tags. Click to coppy the one on the bottom that has IMG next to it. You then paste that tag into the reply box on the forum.

Are you using the timing tool to make sure the cams are timed properly to each other? The inside edge of the last lobes at the back of the head should be vertical and the indentions in the camshaft itself should be facing each other. If the timing tool fits in place, the cams are timed properly.

[quattro guy]

[IMG][/IMG]




I can get everything to line up exepct the chain slack. the slack is at the bottom leaving no room for the tensioner to rise

[quattro guy]

aluthman, thanks for telling me on how to post images, that was easy lol

[aluthman]

I'm thinking you may be a tooth off on the chain and that's what is causing the slack. You should really use the timing tool if you can, or you may end up having to take it all apart again.



Here is the timing tool in place on my head. They aren't super expensive either.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Camsh...501748&vxp=mtr

[vce1232000]

Paging Dr. Adam to the operating room please. Paging Dr. Adam

[aluthman]

Paging Dr. Adam to the operating room please. Paging Dr. Adam

Hey, when you've pulled your head apart as much as I have, you become very familiar with how it all works.

[quattro guy]

this is the problem we have, as you can see there is an extreme tension load on top and there is slack on the chain on the bottom. also any preference of brand name for the alignment tool. any help is much appreciated.

[quattro guy]

Bump

[audihere06]

Don't forget that tensioner will also tighten up with oil pressure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BenMTL]

this is the problem we have, as you can see there is an extreme tension load on top and there is slack on the chain on the bottom. also any preference of brand name for the alignment tool. any help is much appreciated.

You can find them on ebay...Don't think brand matters too much on them...

[quattro guy]

Yes i am aware that as soon as oil pressure is applied it will have more tension. But as you saw on the video, instead of the slack beign on top its on the bottom. I tried moving it one tooth and it doesnt work. I did get the chain to how its suppose to be, beign snug at the bottlm and then the tensioner pushing against it on the top but the cams were not aligned. I will purchase the tool asap and see if there is any change. But by all means if you guys think of something that can help please share. I will post back as soon as i give it a shot with the tool and see if it makes any difference. Hopefully it will.

[mfdk]

this is the problem we have, as you can see there is an extreme tension load on top and there is slack on the chain on the bottom. also any preference of brand name for the alignment tool. any help is much appreciated.

Thats perfectly normal, it actually states on the manual somewhere that the bottom chain should be a little loose but the top should have no slack, once you rotate the crankshaft the tensioner will take care of that slack. I've seen the same thing on mine and it should not be an issue, once you put the head make sure to rotate the crankshaft two times and keep an eye on the tensioner, it should tension as you rotate the the cams/crankshaft.


Sent from Outer Space

[quattro guy]

Thats perfectly normal, it actually states on the manual somewhere that the bottom chain should be a little loose but the top should have no slack, once you rotate the crankshaft the tensioner will take care of that slack. I've seen the same thinbentltg on mine and it should not be an issue, once you put the head make sure to rotate the crankshaft two times and keep an eye on the tensioner, it should tension as you rotate the the cams/crankshaft.


Sent from Outer Space

The Bentley manual?

[mfdk]

The Bentley manual?

I can't recall which manual, whether it was from my expired alldatadyi or someone mentioned on Audizine, but like i said that should not be an issue and its normal when the car is on TDC. As long as that slack is gone when your rotate the cams together or the crankshaft then you shouldn't be worried, i believe its normal but you could wait for someone else to chip in.

[quattro guy]

Thing is, ive been googleing and there a lot of pics where the head is in the exact angle because they replaced a cam and it looks like the slack is on top. I just want to be sure because all the money beign spent, i dont want to have to redo it because the chain slack is making noise like a lot of ppl that have replaced their tensioners. I will keep looking and just wait and see for a few more days. At least till the tool gets here.

[quattro guy]

[IMG][/IMG]Ok quick update. I got the can alignment tool and its still the same issue.there is slack I the bottom of the chain and its streched on the top making the tensioner stay all the way down. Same problem i had since before i bought the tool. One question to anyone that has done this. I posted a video above in a previous reply, has someone done the same thing and installed it like how the chain was? If so any negative effects or is that the appropriate way for these types of cars? This is a pic of how the bottom part of the head looks.

[audihere06]

From what I remember the oil pressure tightens the tensioner upon startup and also remember cam adjusters are oil pressure driven as well. Mine did the same thing there was a little slack when turning by hand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LINDW4LL]

this is the problem we have, as you can see there is an extreme tension load on top and there is slack on the chain on the bottom. also any preference of brand name for the alignment tool. any help is much appreciated.

@aluthman

[aluthman]

Thats perfectly normal, it actually states on the manual somewhere that the bottom chain should be a little loose but the top should have no slack, once you rotate the crankshaft the tensioner will take care of that slack. I've seen the same thing on mine and it should not be an issue, once you put the head make sure to rotate the crankshaft two times and keep an eye on the tensioner, it should tension as you rotate the the cams/crankshaft.


Sent from Outer Space

Sounds like your condition isn't outside the norm. My head does not have a stock valvetrain, so the stiffer Ferrea springs I have could be making a difference in the chain slack. Go ahead and bolt it back up.

[quattro guy]

Yes i decided to bolt it back up, just wantes someone who has done this already to chime in, more of a reassurance. We just kind of freaked out because. On all the chains that have a similar system, the slack is always on the tensioner side since the beggining. Hopefully everything is good. Once i bolted it on i rotated to make sure the timing marka matched which they did so that was a relief, i also put the cam locking tool after i did thay and it went in with no issues. I guess i was paranoid. But thaks for all the help guys. I will post results when im done putting back together the car.

[martin0079]

My slack is on top. You would need to pop the cam girdle off and slip the chain over one link on the intake cam and that will move the slack to the top. When my slack was on the bottom the cam was out of time with the timing tool.

With the slack on the bottom the rotation of the exhaust cam will be what ends up taking up the slack putting you out of time.

[mtroxel]

Just for the record, you are aware that your valve train will sound like hell for the first 10 - 15 seconds after you start it aren't you? When there's no oil at all in the head, it takes a bit to get pressure back in there to operate the tensioner right.

[aluthman]

On that note, I hope you used assembly lube. If not, pull the fuel pump fuse and crank it a bit to prime everything before actually starting it.

[quattro guy]

Martin, i have always known that the slack is suppose to be on top of the tensioner. When i installed it .i did two rotations to make sure that the timing mark matched which they did, i then proceeded to put the cam locking tool or timing tool and ir was no problem getting it nor out. It would just drop in effortlessly. So i was happy about that. I did lube it. I put some engine oil on all the parts and everything so it could have some lubrication for the first few seconds it takes for the oil to be pushed all the way up there. Everything is looking promising but i would not know untill i fire it up. Which reminds me, can anyone tell me how am i suppose to check timing on vcds? I would like to check it when its done and also i have a b6 i would like to check timing as well. Where can i search to find out what degree of timing it should be?

[b00sted04]

I used the cam lock tool but after pulling the chain off my tool has slack in it causing the ability to be of a tooth or more, we're is the timing marks on the cam sprockets and we're should they face. I can't seem to find any marks. Thanks

[quattro guy]

according to all my research and from recent personal experience. it should not be a snug fit but more of a free moving fit. you should be able to drop it in and pull it out without any problem or use of any force. there is no actual reference to timing on the actual cams/ sprockets but on the exhaust side, on the sprocket there is a line and on the intake cam there is a dot. I assume and to what ive read there are no real directions from any manual that use these marks. some people use them when putting the chain back on. the timing marks I used as reference where the ones from the front of the engine, the same ones you use as if you were replacing the timing belt.

[IMG][/IMG]
this is how mine looks installed. notice the cams and the position on where the cam locking tool would go. if I was to put the tool in I would just drop it in and slide it out no problem.

these are the timing marks
[IMG][/IMG]

[aluthman]

Looks good to me, although those marks won't show if the cams are out of time from each other.

[b00sted04]

Exactly the exhaust cam is easy to line up, but seems there are no markings on the intake cam. My cam tool allows the cam to be off 2 teeth in each direction. The tools and this is my second one are built like crap. Had I been smart and read more threads before I started this project I would have found a way to mark the cams before removing the chain. Guess that what I get for assuming there would be timing marks behind the chain.

[quattro guy]

I didnt have that problem. But you do need to rotate the intake cam clockwise looking at if from back to front, or just rotate it to the exhaust cam side. One you rotate then you install the chain. But to what ive seen and have researched everyrhing was done right. My only question was as to why there was slack on the bottom hence the starting of this thread. I will keep updaging as i progress.

[aluthman]

There was almost no play in my cams with the timing tool I used.

[allstock]

OP, watch this ENTIRE video. It might help you. It is a part of a series he did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnZz4LgqoBo&app=desktop

[allstock]

Would also help if you can get your hands on vagcom after you button her up so you can check timing.

[mfdk]

Would also help if you can get your hands on vagcom after you button her up so you can check timing.

If I remember correctly should be on group 090 to 094...!

[allstock]

OP, look how your tensioner is compressed and in the beginning of the video you can see his is extended even though it was off a tooth.

I have to think you're off a tooth. That slack shouldn't be on the bottom.

[mtroxel]

OP, watch this ENTIRE video. It might help you. It is a part of a series he did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnZz4LgqoBo&app=desktop

Darn good video.

[quattro guy]

OP, watch this ENTIRE video. It might help you. It is a part of a series he did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnZz4LgqoBo&app=desktop

I did watch this video before i posted, as i mentioned earlier i did some research and everything pointed to the slack beign on top. When i did manage to get the slack on top it was a thooth off. So maybe i was right at that point. Im on thr verge of finishing everything up installing wise as there were a few ppl here that helped in the decision to bolt it up as it was. The way the cam locking tool slid into place on his is exactly how my locking tools slides in and out. Only thing that has bothered me since the beggining was the chain with the slack on the opposite side. But if i was off a thooth the slack would be on top. So i just decided to leave it at "time" and bolt it up and see what happens. I also have vag com that is why i asked if anyone knew or could point me in the dirrection to check timing. I wont know untill i start the car but now we will see. Hopefully by the weekend we can get it started and ill check timing thru vag com and see where we stand.

[mfdk]

I did watch this video before i posted, as i mentioned earlier i did some research and everything pointed to the slack beign on top. When i did manage to get the slack on top it was a thooth off. So maybe i was right at that point. Im on thr verge of finishing everything up installing wise as there were a few ppl here that helped in the decision to bolt it up as it was. The way the cam locking tool slid into place on his is exactly how my locking tools slides in and out. Only thing that has bothered me since the beggining was the chain with the slack on the opposite side. But if i was off a thooth the slack would be on top. So i just decided to leave it at "time" and bolt it up and see what happens. I also have vag com that is why i asked if anyone knew or could point me in the dirrection to check timing. I wont know untill i start the car but now we will see. Hopefully by the weekend we can get it started and ill check timing thru vag com and see where we stand.

As i have mentioned above on my previous post, the slack will only be present on the bottom because there is no tension for the first time you install the tensioner. If you install the tensioner and start rotating the crankshaft the slack will no longer be present but if the slack its still present after you fully rotated the crankshaft two revolution then you have a problem.

I've seen this slack on more then 3 vehicle and i believe its normal, i had the same thing on my car but never experienced any issues.

Before you put everything together, rotate the crankshaft by hand or preferably have someone else do that while you keep your eyes on the tensioner.