Convenience feature glitch?

[jimrobbington]

So my family and i were at the store, drive there with no issues. Come out to go back home, push to start doesn't work. I always leave my key in the pocket. So i immediately assume it's related to my recent clutch work. Bad clutch switch maybe? The start button will turn on the accessories, but just turns back off when you try to start.

Before i completely freak out, i pull out the key, and insert. Starts right up with the key. So now I'm thinking of it were clutch switch, it wouldn't have started with the key either, right? So maybe this was a glitch with the convenience package that it didn't actually recognize the key was inside the car?

I've got like 3 weeks left of warranty, so is this a normal glitch, or something i should investigate? I got home, took the stuff out of the car, left the key in my pocket, start button fired right up. No issues....

[The Fat Kid]

Was your cell phone next to your key?

[poweredbyaudi7]

Check the battery in your key...

[jimrobbington]

They just replaced it! And now I'm stranded in a carwash bay. Wtf can i do? It is not starting with the key now either.

[14S4GWM]

They just replaced it! And now I'm stranded in a carwash bay. Wtf can i do? It is not starting with the key now either.

Your emergency key? That's crazy

[jimrobbington]

Your emergency key? That's crazy

Emergency key is at home. It unlocked/locks doors, so the battery seems fine. I'm having my wife bring the spare from home to see if that helps.

[jimrobbington]

Spare key, same thing. Pretty sure it's the clutch switch at this point. But now my car is stranded at the car wash.

[14S4GWM]

That sucks, good luck man.

[jimrobbington]

Yeah, called roadside, getting a tow in an hour. Dealer better not fuck me on this one. But now i don't have a ride to work in the morning....

[jimrobbington]

;(

[jimrobbington]

Got a call from the tow driver. Of course the car started right up when he dropped it off....

[TAGHRP2]

Did you check the battery terminal?.

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[jimrobbington]

Did you check the battery terminal?.

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No, everything in the car worked fine. This happened yesterday too, but i was able to start it after a few attempts. Told the driver to still leave it there. I can't live like this, not knowing if my car will get me home or not...

[14S4GWM]

;(

That is a sad sight

[quickglx]

Clutch switch is totally separate from the clutch assembly fyi, unrelated to clutch installation. Starter, relays, clutch switch... one of those most likely.

[treejs4]

Not sure if it effects the 2012's but I remember seeing some threads on the push to start not working correctly. I'll try to search and find the thread for you and maybe that can help

[TAGHRP2]

I found this thread. Maybe same issue?.

http://www.audiworld.com/forums/a6-s...ition-2759853/

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[jimrobbington]

I found this thread. Maybe same issue?.

http://www.audiworld.com/forums/a6-s...ition-2759853/

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I don't think so, as inserting the key doesn't work either now...

[treejs4]

Could it somehow be related to your slave cylinder issue you were experiencing last month? Did you ever get that fixed? If so, did this problem start happening after that fix? Just things that could possibly attribute to this

[AudiTFSI3o3]

wait, so you were able to turn on to ACC but it doesn't turn over at all?

[S4'ed]

There are some issues, where the clutch throw-out linkage (inside the bell housing) wears enough that the start-enable switch in the clutch master cylinder does not get activated anymore.

See TSB in post #26 below....

[Brother Owl]

Damn that sucks bro, sorry

[Chandler]

There are some issues, where the clutch throw-out linkage (inside the bell housing) wears enough that the start-enable switch in the clutch master cylinder does not get activated anymore.

That is possible but unlikely. As long as the peddle gets no resistance and can go to the floor, the throw out bearing is not likely the culprit. It would just be an electrical switch issue IMO.

[jimrobbington]

Could it somehow be related to your slave cylinder issue you were experiencing last month? Did you ever get that fixed? If so, did this problem start happening after that fix? Just things that could possibly attribute to this

So, slave was never replaced. They said it was just from worn clutch/fw. They replaced clutch/fw/fork and my previous issue was resolved.

wait, so you were able to turn on to ACC but it doesn't turn over at all?

Correct. Push it again to start, it just turns completely off again.

That is possible but unlikely. As long as the peddle gets no resistance and can go to the floor, the throw out bearing is not likely the culprit. It would just be an electrical switch issue IMO.

That's what i thought too...

So they haven't gotten to look at it yet. I did stop by and pick up a Q7 to drive though. My service advisor said he did speak to the tech who will be working on the car. He says there isn't a clutch switch on this car, but that there is a signal that comes from the master cylinder that may be the culprit?

So if that's the culprit, do you think any of this would be covered under their complete work done just one week ago? Or covered under warranty? Since the problem is not a "wearable" item at this point? I don't have anything to spend at this point, after putting $5k on a credit card for everything that's been done already.

[Chandler]

So, slave was never replaced. They said it was just from worn clutch/fw. They replaced clutch/fw/fork and my previous issue was resolved.

Correct. Push it again to start, it just turns completely off again.

That's what i thought too...

So they haven't gotten to look at it yet. I did stop by and pick up a Q7 to drive though. My service advisor said he did speak to the tech who will be working on the car. He says there isn't a clutch switch on this car, but that there is a signal that comes from the master cylinder that may be the culprit?

So if that's the culprit, do you think any of this would be covered under their complete work done just one week ago? Or covered under warranty? Since the problem is not a "wearable" item at this point? I don't have anything to spend at this point, after putting $5k on a credit card for everything that's been done already.

In my opinion, yes the master should not be a failing item. It should be covered under warranty.

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[S4'ed]

TSB for Clutch Switch (No Start)

(The clutch switches are part of the clutch master cylinder assembly, they are NOT on the clutch pedal mechanism under the dash.)

M/T - No Start Or Only Starts When Clutch Firmly Applied

30 Vehicle does not start or only starts when the clutch pedal is pressed very firmly
30 13 18
2028229/2
June 13, 2013
Supersedes Technical Service Bulletin Group 30 number 11-11 dated December 9, 2011 for reasons listed below.


Vehicle Information


Condition
^Customer may report that the vehicle does not start or only starts when the clutch pedal is pressed very firmly.
^The message "Press clutch pedal to start vehicle" may appear in the instrument cluster.
Technical Background
There may be clutch mechanism wear.
Production Solution
Not applicable.
Service
1.Check the clutch hydraulics and electrics as follows:
2.Depress the clutch pedal to the perceived end stop.
While the clutch pedal is depressed, have a second technician open the bleeder screw on the clutch slave cylinder.
^If the clutch pedal can now be moved further and the vehicle can be started, or if the message in the instrument cluster goes out, the sender of the clutch mechanism is correct. The issue is clutch mechanism wear; see the ElsaWeb Repair Manual for instructions. Do not replace the clutch master cylinder or slave cylinder, as doing so will not resolve this condition.
^If the clutch pedal still cannot be moved further, or if the message in the instrument cluster does not go out, check the operation of the Clutch Position Sensor -G476-.
3.Close the bleeder screw on the clutch slave cylinder.
Warranty
This TSB is informational only and not applicable to any Audi warranty.
Additional Information
All parts and service references provided in this TSB are subject to change and/or removal. Always check with your Parts Department and service manuals for the latest information.


Info on the clutch master cylinder switches/sensors:
The clutch master cylinder has three switches integrated into it.

there is the F36 Clutch Pedal Switch that is used for cruise control
there is the F194 Clutch pedal switch that triggers the "Press Pedal to start" part of the car
there is the G476 Clutch position sensor.

You can use a Vagcom to measure the blocks of both the switches. its block 265(F194), starter control clutch switch and block 266(G476) starter control, interlock switch (may be a few numbers different depending on what version vag you have loaded)

The last bit will change to a 1 when active.

Both need to be "1" for the car to start.

If you felt like bypassing the switch you can simply ground out the wire in the ecu box that gets triggered. blue gray is the F194 and green/gray is the G476.

[14S4GWM]

He's onto something here.

[ENV²]

You sure it isnt the cam position sensor? That can cause no starts.

[S4'ed]

Cam sensor does not give a "Depress Clutch to Start" message on the dash..............

[jimrobbington]

TSB for Clutch Switch (No Start)

(The clutch switches are part of the clutch master cylinder assembly, they are NOT on the clutch pedal mechanism under the dash.)

M/T - No Start Or Only Starts When Clutch Firmly Applied

30 Vehicle does not start or only starts when the clutch pedal is pressed very firmly
30 13 18
2028229/2
June 13, 2013
Supersedes Technical Service Bulletin Group 30 number 11-11 dated December 9, 2011 for reasons listed below.


Vehicle Information


Condition
^Customer may report that the vehicle does not start or only starts when the clutch pedal is pressed very firmly.
^The message "Press clutch pedal to start vehicle" may appear in the instrument cluster.
Technical Background
There may be clutch mechanism wear.
Production Solution
Not applicable.
Service
1.Check the clutch hydraulics and electrics as follows:
2.Depress the clutch pedal to the perceived end stop.
While the clutch pedal is depressed, have a second technician open the bleeder screw on the clutch slave cylinder.
^If the clutch pedal can now be moved further and the vehicle can be started, or if the message in the instrument cluster goes out, the sender of the clutch mechanism is correct. The issue is clutch mechanism wear; see the ElsaWeb Repair Manual for instructions. Do not replace the clutch master cylinder or slave cylinder, as doing so will not resolve this condition.
^If the clutch pedal still cannot be moved further, or if the message in the instrument cluster does not go out, check the operation of the Clutch Position Sensor -G476-.
3.Close the bleeder screw on the clutch slave cylinder.
Warranty
This TSB is informational only and not applicable to any Audi warranty.
Additional Information
All parts and service references provided in this TSB are subject to change and/or removal. Always check with your Parts Department and service manuals for the latest information.


Info on the clutch master cylinder switches/sensors:
The clutch master cylinder has three switches integrated into it.

there is the F36 Clutch Pedal Switch that is used for cruise control
there is the F194 Clutch pedal switch that triggers the "Press Pedal to start" part of the car
there is the G476 Clutch position sensor.

You can use a Vagcom to measure the blocks of both the switches. its block 265(F194), starter control clutch switch and block 266(G476) starter control, interlock switch (may be a few numbers different depending on what version vag you have loaded)

The last bit will change to a 1 when active.

Both need to be "1" for the car to start.

If you felt like bypassing the switch you can simply ground out the wire in the ecu box that gets triggered. blue gray is the F194 and green/gray is the G476.

Wow, great info here, thanks! Sounds exactly like what I'm experiencing. In fact, the SA even said that the tech was able to start it by pressing the pedal super hard. I did try this, but i guess didn't press hard enough?

[14S4GWM]

Wow, great info here, thanks! Sounds exactly like what I'm experiencing. In fact, the SA even said that the tech was able to start it by pressing the pedal super hard. I did try this, but i guess didn't press hard enough?

We'll let you blame that weak ass left leg on an ol battle wound.

[jimrobbington]

We'll let you blame that weak ass left leg on an ol battle wound.

Lol, the clutch was brand new! I want trying to break it more! FML

[jimrobbington]

Confirmed with my SA that TSB is what the tech was talking about. They will be running that process this morning and let me know what's up. So if that sensor is bad, that means that the transmission has to come back out to replace the whole master cylinder?

[S4'ed]

No, the Clutch Master Cylinder is mounted to the firewall....the trans does not need to come out to replace that.

But, the Master Cylinder might not be the root of the no start problem. My read of the TSB indicates that a worn throw-out bearing, or the pivot of the "fork" for the throw out bearing might be worn, which can prevent the activation of the start switch in the Master Cylinder. Those parts are inside the bell-housing, and would need the trans to be pulled to replace. The wear causes the travel of the internal piston of the master cylinder to be insufficient to activate the start-switch.

Did they replace the throw-out bearing AND the "fork", AND the part that the fork pivots on, when you got a new clutch??? The Fork design has been revised once or twice by Audi to solve the "gritty clutch pedal when hot" complaint.

[jimrobbington]

No, the Clutch Master Cylinder is mounted to the firewall....the trans does not need to come out to replace that.

But, the Master Cylinder might not be the root of the no start problem. My read of the TSB indicates that a worn throw-out bearing, or the pivot of the "fork" for the throw out bearing might be worn, which can prevent the activation of the start switch in the Master Cylinder. Those parts are inside the bell-housing, and would need the trans to be pulled to replace. The wear causes the travel of the internal piston of the master cylinder to be insufficient to activate the start-switch.

Did they replace the throw-out bearing AND the "fork", AND the part that the fork pivots on, when you got a new clutch??? The Fork design has been revised once or twice by Audi to solve the "gritty clutch pedal when hot" complaint.

Not that I'm aware of, just the fork as far as i know.

[MrFunk]

Hope it all gets sorted out swiftly for you!! Seems you are on the right track...

[jimrobbington]

Well, just like I had hoped WOULDNT happen, the dealer is once again trying to fuck me. Received a call just a while ago, they are trying to blame my BRAND NEW pressure plate for this intermittent starting issue. HAHA! I called JHM, I called 3zero3, I called Berg Performance, all of which have no idea what Audi Denver is talking about.

Jake@JHM says that he has seen a B8 with a practically identical issue where the cause was a bad starter. When the starter was hot (after a drive cycle) the car would not start. Seems very similar to my issue.

Justin@3z3 says there is absolutely nothing going on with the flywheel that should cause intermittent starting issues.

Jeff@Berg says the same thing

I called and left my service advisor a voicemail kindly letting him know that my previously 0 faith in dealerships is now negative, and that if they continue to point fingers at the wrong thing, and refuse to work with me on this, I will gladly remove my car from their posession and never go there again. Before I left this message, I did let him know about what Jake said about the starter. He said they will have someone drive it around and get it hot, and test again and see if they can duplicate the issue.

FML ;(

[Jake@JHM]

Well, just like I had hoped WOULDNT happen, the dealer is once again trying to fuck me. Received a call just a while ago, they are trying to blame my BRAND NEW pressure plate for this intermittent starting issue. HAHA! I called JHM, I called 3zero3, I called Berg Performance, all of which have no idea what Audi Denver is talking about.

Jake@JHM says that he has seen a B8 with a practically identical issue where the cause was a bad starter. When the starter was hot (after a drive cycle) the car would not start. Seems very similar to my issue.

Justin@3z3 says there is absolutely nothing going on with the flywheel that should cause intermittent starting issues.

Jeff@Berg says the same thing

I called and left my service advisor a voicemail kindly letting him know that my previously 0 faith in dealerships is now negative, and that if they continue to point fingers at the wrong thing, and refuse to work with me on this, I will gladly remove my car from their posession and never go there again. Before I left this message, I did let him know about what Jake said about the starter. He said they will have someone drive it around and get it hot, and test again and see if they can duplicate the issue.

FML ;(

Hopefully the person they have go "get it hot" can drive a 6MT lol

[jimrobbington]

Hopefully the person they have go "get it hot" can drive a 6MT lol

Omfg, don't you get my mind racing!

[jimrobbington]

So @Jake@JHM, he is still pretty adamant that is the clutch assembly somehow. He wants me to come down so i can see what they are talking about... Supposedly, they are now able to duplicate the issue cold. He says if he pushes the clutch in super hard, it will still start.... Does that mean anything different to you?