Metal in oil, Where to look next.

[Problemchild]

New to the forums, new to Audi engines, but not new to wrenching. I've done a lot of work on heavy diesels in the past.

Now for my problem. My son decided to acquire a 2008 A4 with a 2.0t. Shortly after getting it the engine spun two rods and a main. The warranty company only allowed for a used replacement engine. That supposedly only had 54,000 miles on it. The engine was installed by the used car dealer, who specializes in German vehicles. They claimed that the engine looked in real good shape. It was driven approximately 3000 miles before the first oil change. When the filter was pulled there was a large amount of metal shavings caught in it. There was also a lot in the bottom of the filter canister. Altogether if I would have spread it out on my hand it probably would have covered my palm (I have small hands). We thought that possibly the filter canister had been from the old engine and had not been cleaned. We cleaned it and ran it 500 more miles and checked the oil and filter. More metal in the filter and some on the magnetic drain plug.

At this point we have checked the turbo drain line (turbo is off the old engine, shop stated that it passed their inspection) and didn't find any metal. Next we pulled the HPFP and the cam follower and cam are both in excellent shape. The engine runs fine and sounds OK at this point, so now for the questions.

1). My son is being told by some of his co-workers, who are mechanics, to run it another 1000 miles and recheck the engine. Does anyone think this is a good idea? I don't.

2). Where would the next most likely point of failure be on these engines?

3). How difficult is it to pull the cam timing chain cover? This is Quattro so that is against the firewall.

4). He was also told that these engines normally produce some metal and/or this could be residual from the work done on the engine. To me the flaw with that thinking is that the engine itself had no work done to it other than pulling the valve covers and maybe dropping the pan.

At this point I'm not quite sure where to look next. I really was hoping to avoid just pulling the entire engine apart unless I have too. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[vce1232000]

I would bring it rite back to the dealer that the used motor. Have them look and document everything. Its not normal to have metal particles in your engine. This way they are still on the hook for it.
Metal can be from any moving parts. What color are the shavings. Silver or copper or some other color.
Common problems with these motors have been cam followers blowing apart and throwing metal particles thru motor. Then jambs oil passages and then seizing internal parts
Timing chain cover is pretty easy to. 45 min tops

[Problemchild]

We did contact the dealer. Apparently no real warranty remaining on the engine. The whole thing was a mess that I don't want to go into here, other than to say that I will never, ever, ever buy from that dealer and warranty company again.

It appears that most of the shavings are silver. When you mention the cam follower, are you referencing the HPFP follower? If so that was OK.

[vce1232000]

We did contact the dealer. Apparently no real warranty remaining on the engine. The whole thing was a mess that I don't want to go into here, other than to say that I will never, ever, ever buy from that dealer and warranty company again.

It appears that most of the shavings are silver. When you mention the cam follower, are you referencing the HPFP follower? If so that was OK.

Silver shavings could be from a previous hpfp cam follower or a cam failure or both. Since your already in to the motor. You can the valve cover for a closer. Do you have pics of the metal shavings

[Okedokey]

Change the oil and run until clean may be. Or go down the hard path of warranty.

[mtroxel]

1). My son is being told by some of his co-workers, who are mechanics, to run it another 1000 miles and recheck the engine. Does anyone think this is a good idea? I don't.

Neither do I.

2). Where would the next most likely point of failure be on these engines?

Cam Follower, but you say that's happy. In fact does it look new...black - isn't scratched up at all? If so, you have to wonder if it is the 2nd cam follower on a 54,000 mile motor. And then you wonder what damage happened when the factory follower gave up. There was a guy on here who had your problem, and found out that parts of the follower were caught in the chain that drives the oil pump/balance shafts. Chewed that up pretty good. Problem is, getting a look at that involves dropping the pan and that's not a 60 minute job on this car.

[KJack]

I wonder if the cam follower is new and the previous one caused the metal shavings. Did the cam lobe have scratches on it?

[Problemchild]

Cam follower is black so I'm quite sure it's fairly new. I know the HPFP has been off in the past because the last person stripped the inside of the Torx head. The cam lobe is as smooth as a babies bottom. Maybe I'll try to determine if the HPFP is the original. If it's been replaced then it may be that the metal is residual from the cam follower failure.

I was going to try to post some pictures last night, but didn't have the time. Today we are both at work.

[vce1232000]

If the cam follower is black rite now. Very much doubt that its the original for that engine. They loose the black coating after 10k or less. Very possible its another cam in there also. If you the valve cover you mite see the different color between the intake and exhaust cam. You always can ask to see the receipt from the junkyard. It will have the vinn# on it and you can car fax and see the last mileage on it.

[Sanjman]

If the cam follower is black rite now. Very much doubt that its the original for that engine. They loose the black coating after 10k or less. Very possible its another cam in there also. If you the valve cover you mite see the different color between the intake and exhaust cam. You always can ask to see the receipt from the junkyard. It will have the vinn# on it and you can car fax and see the last mileage on it.

Agreed. Would never think a rebuilt motor came with a HPFP anyways so those parts are probably from your original engine and the cam follower is probably brand new or yours.

I would quickly inspect the camshaft and check the condition of it. If you are truly SOL with the warranty company or the dealer then you should start

Pull the valve cover and intake manifold and inspect

[audihere06]

Personally I would pull the oil pan and see if you can find the problem. You can also send an oil sample to an oil lab who will analyze it and tell you if it is rod bearings, rings, cylinder walls, or whatever. I had my balance shafts lock up on me and destroy my engine so I would definitely look further into it.


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[UberTeile]

Kinda goin' out on a limb here....Would it be possible that the previous owner of the motor used an oil additive with visible solids, like LubroMoly MoS2? If so, it might explain a lot. As mentioned above, a UOA would reveal this as well.

[BenMTL]

Personally I would pull the oil pan and see if you can find the problem. You can also send an oil sample to an oil lab who will analyze it and tell you if it is rod bearings, rings, cylinder walls, or whatever. I had my balance shafts lock up on me and destroy my engine so I would definitely look further into it.


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Exactly...You need to tear into your engine.

Check the bottom of your oil pain and oil pickup tube..Make sure it isn't clogged. Also, if you send in your oil with the metal shavings in it, sometimes they can tell you what kind of parts it came from as stated above...

If you clean it all out and none return, it is likely from a previous cam follower failure...Not ideal, but engines have been rebuilt after that has happened (i.e all metal shavings cleaned out of engine) and the engine is then OK.

[Problemchild]

Thanks for all the replies. We just got a oil test kit from Blackstone, the problem is we have none of the old oil, at least not clean stuff and they want 1000 miles on a sample. I'm going to show the shavings to a mechanic I think I can trust and see what he will charge my son to pull the engine down. I can easily do the top part, but don't know if I want to get into dropping the subframe to get to the pan.

[vce1232000]

If you have a cherry picker or access to one and the space. the engine yourself. All that metal that was running thru your engine cant be healthy for it. Id rather the engine then mess with that subframe anyday

[audihere06]

Pulling the engine isn't exactly fun either. If you have metal running through it, the manual says to at least replace the oil cooler, piston squirters, turbo lines. I didn't but I thoroughly rinsed it out. How many miles on rebuild? What oil are you running? Mods? BTW "checking" turbo is a lie. All they do is check for shaft play. The only true way to tell is to tear into it and if your into it that far u have to rebuild it. There could be metal in the turbo. It could be alot of things. It's best at this point just to tear into it and see what you are dealing with. From experience i know how much this sucks. My car was down for 8 months due to balance shaft seizure and incompetence of auto shops including an audi dealer.


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[kTaLgsTo]

There is definately metal everywhere if it's in the oil filter housing. I wouldn't be comfortable until all the oil pushing lines were cleaned out. I would be fighting the warranty company tooth and nail. Don't let them off the hook that easily