track day with worn brakes

[beckmaster]

Audiziner's I am scheduled for 2 track days in a little less than 3 weeks. Yesterday my break pad light goes off. I take a look and am down to between 3 and 3.5mm on the front outer pads (I did not pull the tires and check the inner pads though I know they may be thinner on the inside.) The pads have about 20K miles on them with 2 previous track days. Rotors are still in decent shape they are slightly textured with a small lip. No shimmying or rattling on braking. Both brakes and rotors are still stock. Rears are still in great shape. I am thinking that 2 track days and 20K miles got me down to 3mm. If it was only 1 track day I would stick with the pads, but 2 days I am a bit concerned.

Track day consists of 2 days, 4 sessions at 24 minutes each. What do you think? Leave them on and replace after track day? Or don't be stupid and replace them before the event?

[ryanhmusic]

I would think about it this way...

I can either replace them now and not need to worry at all...

Or I can try and save a buck by delaying the replacement...and hope they don't stop working during a track day.

How fun would it be to suddenly not have stopping force?

I'd imagine that would make the track day...less than fun.

[Sudz]

My experience, your mind will be more at ease if you replace the pads before the events. If you don't it will worry you the whole time you should be having fun. I have torn up rotors twice at TWS in my Vette, I should have just replaced pads early.

[rtl5009]

Replace them.

[beckmaster]

My experience, your mind will be more at ease if you replace the pads before the events. If you don't it will worry you the whole time you should be having fun. I have torn up rotors twice at TWS in my Vette, I should have just replaced pads early.

This right here is the reason why I will replace them. I will worry the entire time and won't enjoy myself. BTW, how did you know I am going to TWS?

[Sudz]

Well, we are both in Houston so, it's either TWS or MSR with SCCA.
Are you into Auto-X, it is a hoot in our S4s.

[infinkc]

Definitely put new pads in before your track day.

[beckmaster]

Well, we are both in Houston so, it's either TWS or MSR with SCCA.
Are you into Auto-X, it is a hoot in our S4s.

lol good guess. No, have not done auto-X but want to get involved in that as well.
My other two track days were Grandsport speedway and MSR.

[beckmaster]

Now the big question is, since I am only replacing the fronts should I stick with OEM or get something different?

[Acejam]

You do realize that some cars can use an entire set of pads during a track event, right? You should most definitely put in a new set of pads before going.

[firstars]

Not only should you replace the pads, you should def check after first event pad life (especially if you replace with oem). I blew through OEM front pads in 2 track days around same duration with ease.

[beckmaster]

Not only should you replace the pads, you should def check after first event pad life (especially if you replace with oem). I blew through OEM front pads in 2 track days around same duration with ease.

Would you recommend a different set of pads then?
BTW, I'm in Estoril Blue and have Sepang envy. It was not available when I ordered. If I only knew I can do custom :(

[B-Time]

Don't delay. I lost brakes while doing 120 or so downhill in a race going into a hairy section. It sucked balls. There was no material on the pads and somehow one ejected itself. So only had piston on rotor.

[anerbe]

Don't be the second guy - replace your brakes.

I would only go out on stock brakes if they were new. These cars COOK the stockers too easily.

[bhvrdr]

Yup, new pads and fluid. Use a high temp fluid. ST Street Performance pads have a really decent temp range for a street pad.

Mike

[beckmaster]

more stupid questions:

I'm sure you don't have to replace the rotors every time, mine are a little used, do they need to be ground down also?

[bhvrdr]

It's not a dumb question at all.

If you measure the rotor and it has plenty of life left it may make it through the life of two pads.

If that is the case you could get the rotor turned or you could modify the bed - in procedure on the new pad by first braking cold with the new pad to wipe the old pad layer and then follow that with a standard bed-in.

I personally find it to be more convenient and not very costly to just replace the rotors. It's a cheap way to have maximum rotor effectiveness.

Mike

[beckmaster]

It's not a dumb question at all.

If you measure the rotor and it has plenty of life left it may make it through the life of two pads.

If that is the case you could get the rotor turned or you could modify the bed - in procedure on the new pad by first braking cold with the new pad to wipe the old pad layer and then follow that with a standard bed-in.

I personally find it to be more convenient and not very costly to just replace the rotors. It's a cheap way to have maximum rotor effectiveness.

Mike

So let me get this straight. I can burn through a set of brakes and rotors on just 2 track days? Rotors running about 600 bucks for front and rear as well as pads running $250 bucks. Plus install of $400 if I don't want to do it myself. Am I reading this correctly?

[Sudz]

Yep, I actually believe the track time is cheaper than wear and tear on the car, and this is without HPDE insurance. I am in denial because of the addiction, but track driving is not cheap if you are pushing your car hard.

I put 1200 track miles on my Vette last year, and I spent the most on brakes/pads.

[bhvrdr]

So let me get this straight. I can burn through a set of brakes and rotors on just 2 track days? Rotors running about 600 bucks for front and rear as well as pads running $250 bucks. Plus install of $400 if I don't want to do it myself. Am I reading this correctly?

Not necessarily. Brake longevity can vary so widely based on drivers and conditions.

Some people can go 50K miles and 2 track days on a set of pads. Some people will burn through a brand new set of pads in one track day. Many things go into this from driving style down to even the tread compound you are running.

Also keep in mind on these care you are more likely to burn though fronts before rears so dont assume you will need to replace all 4 corners.

The main points to take from this:

1. Dont go to a track day with less than 50% pad life. The more pad life you have the more thermal capacity you have and less heat transfer from the rotor to the caliper. If you start out with more pad you will actually use less pad during the session. If you run out of pad at the track you have trashed your whole saturday of track time and that's pretty valuable to me.

2. Check the pads and rotors after each event. If you are good to go...good. Keep them on. I'd always recommend just a fluid flush then.

3. If you burn through a set of pads quickly, check the rotors. If you have a ton of rotor life, just replace the pads. If you are marginal, replace them both.

If you know you are eating through pads and/or rotors quickly, you can do some lower cost things before making the commitment to a BBK. You can grab a cheap set of track rotors and pads. Get a reasonably priced track compound and some decent rotors (you can do Hawks and Reybestos for a couple hundred bucks all in). Of course makes sure to use the highest quality brake fluid within reason such as RBF660 or SRF. You can also try and modify your driving style a bit and also stay away from R-comps on the stock brake system.

Also, i'd strongly consider DIY on brakes if you are going to be doing track days. The labor is really easy and goes quickly. If time is more valuable to you than money i'd at least find an independent that wont charge more than an hour "per axle" as they say (200 for 4 corners or 100 for F or R).

Mike

[paul]

the thinner the pad, the less heat they can manage. That is to say they will get hotter and won't work as well not to mention likely transfer more heat into the fluid. 3mm is not enough material to safely run a track event. Get new pads at minimum and full flush on fluid if you have not already done so.

[LINDW4LL]

Definitely replace, but not with OE pads.

[cspcrx]

So let me get this straight. I can burn through a set of brakes and rotors on just 2 track days? Rotors running about 600 bucks for front and rear as well as pads running $250 bucks. Plus install of $400 if I don't want to do it myself. Am I reading this correctly?

Yep hence the reason I have a dedicated track car!

[beckmaster]

Cspcrx,
What's your track car?

Mike,
Do those $3,000 big brake kits actually make a difference? Do they save you money in the long run by preserving the rotors and brakes longer or is it just another track expense?

I'm looking to slap on hawk HPS but am a little worried driving it on the highway since it won't get warmed up properly. Am I overreacting?

[B-Time]

I'm looking to slap on hawk HPS but am a little worried driving it on the highway since it won't get warmed up properly. Am I overreacting?

HPS is not a race pad and works well when cold.

[LINDW4LL]

What do you mean in regards to being worried about highway driving?

HPS are street pads and are fine when cold.

Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk

[bhvrdr]

Cspcrx,
What's your track car?

Mike,
Do those $3,000 big brake kits actually make a difference? Do they save you money in the long run by preserving the rotors and brakes longer or is it just another track expense?

I'm looking to slap on hawk HPS but am a little worried driving it on the highway since it won't get warmed up properly. Am I overreacting?

Hi Beckmaster,

If you are planning to make HPDE or the like a hobby, than a BBK makes sense in these cars IMO. The brakes are the weak point. I'd say they become worth it if you are noticing that despite the band aid solutions you are still overheating your brakes on lap days and it is ruining events for you. If you are making it through a lap day ok and not doing many of them per year it may not be worth it to you. It takes a lot of pads and rotors to make up for the price of a new BBK.

A hawk HPS is a pretty weak pad. It is not likely any more heat tolerant than the stockers. One step up is the HP+ which is marginally better. The problem with the HP+ is that it has the drawbacks of squealing on the streets but not enough benefits of increased heat range. The Stoptech Steet Performance actually has a really good heat range (supposedly up to 1300 degrees!) and is quiet as a mouse on the streets. I'd do that pad as a dual purpose. I only mentioned Hawk as an inexpensive option if considering swapping to track only pads and the HPS and HP+ are not that.

Mike

[cspcrx]

Cspcrx,
What's your track car?

Mike,
Do those $3,000 big brake kits actually make a difference? Do they save you money in the long run by preserving the rotors and brakes longer or is it just another track expense?

I'm looking to slap on hawk HPS but am a little worried driving it on the highway since it won't get warmed up properly. Am I overreacting?

In my sig, 86 crx. 1900 lb car with 170 hp. Handles like a gokart and stops so deep in the turns its sick. Very fun!

[cspcrx]

On a side note I would never race on warn brakes. I had a set of EBC brakes that I thought I could be by on. Bad idea!

[GeoJoe]

OP, learn to swap pads and get a bleeder for fluid. It'll save you time, money and stress.

There's a dedicated sticky to all of this. http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...-Thread/page46

[beckmaster]

OP, learn to swap pads and get a bleeder for fluid. It'll save you time, money and stress.

There's a dedicated sticky to all of this. http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...-Thread/page46

I am outsourcing my own brake job for the last time. My wife pushed me because she does not think I should learn right before a track day. I think if I can do my own gaskets, timing belt and water pump on my DD A6, I'm sure I can figure out how to do a good brake job as well. I'm scheduled to have the work done tomorrow.

[beckmaster]

I am outsourcing my own brake job for the last time. My wife pushed me because she does not think I should learn right before a track day. I think if I can do my own gaskets, timing belt and water pump on my DD A6, I'm sure I can figure out how to do a good brake job as well. I'm scheduled to have the work done tomorrow.

Had my brakes done, and went to the track this last weekend. I am hooked. I think I am finally getting it out there.

Anyways, out on the track on my 6th run, the brake light would light up on me sporadically. Not while braking, but when I had some serious G force around a turn. The car would beep and the brake light would go on and go right off after the turn on a straightaway. Hard breaking had no effect on it nor is my braking affected. I'm going to work on diagnosing the problem shortly, but it just goes to show you that if you want the job done right, you have to do it yourself.

[LINDW4LL]

Is the reservoir full?

[beckmaster]

Is the reservoir full?

Yup, completely full. I want to buy a new jack before I pull of the wheels and take a closer look.

[bhvrdr]

I'm guessing where Hayden was going with that (it's where i'd go) is that the fluid reservoir has a sensor in it and under high g loads if you have "almost" full brake fluid it could be causing the light to come on and then go back off when in the straits. In addition, when you first install the new pads rotors, your pistons are pushed back into the caliper. Once you start braking on the new brakes the pistons come back out creating more space for fluid in the system (possibly needing a tiny top off). Then add to that you did a track day and you may have used up half your pads or more leading the pistons to come out even more leading to more room for brake fluid....you get the picture :) Make sure its really really full.

Mike

[beckmaster]

I'm guessing where Hayden was going with that (it's where i'd go) is that the fluid reservoir has a sensor in it and under high g loads if you have "almost" full brake fluid it could be causing the light to come on and then go back off when in the straits. In addition, when you first install the new pads rotors, your pistons are pushed back into the caliper. Once you start braking on the new brakes the pistons come back out creating more space for fluid in the system (possibly needing a tiny top off). Then add to that you did a track day and you may have used up half your pads or more leading the pistons to come out even more leading to more room for brake fluid....you get the picture :) Make sure its really really full.

Mike

Absolutely full and the pads are in good shape still. Gonna use them again on the track in Feb.

[beckmaster]

I'm guessing where Hayden was going with that (it's where i'd go) is that the fluid reservoir has a sensor in it and under high g loads if you have "almost" full brake fluid it could be causing the light to come on and then go back off when in the straits. In addition, when you first install the new pads rotors, your pistons are pushed back into the caliper. Once you start braking on the new brakes the pistons come back out creating more space for fluid in the system (possibly needing a tiny top off). Then add to that you did a track day and you may have used up half your pads or more leading the pistons to come out even more leading to more room for brake fluid....you get the picture :) Make sure its really really full.

Mike

Mike,
I went back to check and you are right on. It is not "Really Really full" like you said. I should have listened to you the first time.
The level is at the top of the minimum arrow. So it is full, but at the low end.

Any issues with me topping it off with a different brand fluid. I can't quite remember what was put in there last month.

[bhvrdr]

right on bud. No problems mixing as long as they are both dot 4 or dot 5.1. Never use/mix a DOT 5 (not to be confused with DOT 5.1).

Mike

[littleredwagen]

Mike,
I went back to check and you are right on. It is not "Really Really full" like you said. I should have listened to you the first time.
The level is at the top of the minimum arrow. So it is full, but at the low end.

Any issues with me topping it off with a different brand fluid. I can't quite remember what was put in there last month.

when topping it off, make sure the sensor plug on the cap is firmly plugged in, mine wasn't and even though the level was correct it go off randomly

[Johnnycash]

safety first!

all things considered since you could potentially jeopardize other drivers safety i think you already know what the appropriate answer is...