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  1. #1
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    B8.5 S4 stock versus APR Stage 1 tune versus Chipwerke piggy back...

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    PURPOSE:

    The purpose of this thread is to compare quarter mile times and driving feel of the stock Audi 2015 S4 S-Tronic versus with the APR Stage 1 tune, versus the Chipwerke piggy back.

    CUSTOMER SERVICE:


    APR
    I have purchased products from APR for the past 8 years and have not had a problem with customer service from their company. In fact, they have been great. I had terrible customer service from one of their distributors, Velocity Factor, in Boca Raton in the past 2 years and subsequently have been doing business with USP Motorsport in Coral Gables. I have found USP Motorsport personnel to be knowledgeable and proficient. The true test of customer service is either when you have a technical problem or when you have an item for return…usually everyone is good at sales. In this instance, I presented for a return of the APR software after approximately 10 days and the folks at USP were very professional and did not present themselves as rude or hesitant to process the return. One of their management actually came out to ask me exactly what I wasn’t pleased with so he could provide a report directly to APR. He even took it upon himself to run stock and APR tuned vbox logs of the 0-60 to make sure there was no problem. His direct statement to me was, “I want to make sure there isn’t really a problem here because I won’t sell products that are giving people problems.” Top notch response in my opinion. It should be noted that the APR software did provide performance gains. It was not defective in any way other than not providing the gains I was hoping for.

    Chipwerke
    I have to say I was honestly pleasantly surprised here. I went in with a bit of negative bias knowing that I would be purchasing an item from overseas. I used to do business with MTM in Ingolstadt and the time difference and language difference usually presented a bit of a challenge. This was not the case here. I purchased the product via ebay but was uncertain if I had purchased the correct item so I emailed the seller and advised him of what car I had. I received a reply email within 10 minutes:
    “Hello Mike,
    First of all thanks for your business
    We will send out your chipwerkeS everything prepared ,we have great experience on Audi 3,0 TFSİ engines
    We will send you cables, instructions and all settings adjusted.
    Best Regards”
    And this turned out to be true. The item I ordered travelled to me from Turkey to Florida in 3 days. I have ordered items from Audi performance suppliers in the US and it has taken much longer. The piggy back arrived well packaged in professional looking packaging and with instructions that amounted to a picture of the engine bay with arrows. Honestly, no instructions were really needed. It is two pairs of intercept connectors that go to the two MAP/IAT sensors. It couldn’t be much easier to install. What was nice was that one day after the product arrived I received an email from the owner of Chipwerke’s Vitalen Garage asking if everything arrived safely and to my satisfaction. Perfect.

    PRICE:

    APR Stage I - $1299 plus tax and install (typical install ranges from free to $99)

    Chipwerke - $349 includes tax and free shipping


    INSTALLATION:

    APR
    The APR programming was installed at USP Motorsport. Install time was approximately 45 minutes. All installation was conducted with flashing through the OBDII port. Re-installation of stock OEM software was also conducted through the OBDII port. I was advised that APR automatically flashes the exact version of the OEM software that was on your car and also resets the flash counter. Although there is no guaranteed way of avoiding TD1 concerns, it appears that by doing both of these things people are currently avoiding TD1 flags. It is important to note that not all tuners reset the flash counter and not all will make sure your software versions match. This was important to me.

    Chipwerke
    Too easy. You connect the two pairs of intercept cables to the two G31/G72 MAP/IAT sensors. You are provided several zip ties to route the wires out of the way. No tools are needed. Installation time was 10 minutes being careful. Removal is the reverse of installation. Obviously this method of performance increase was desirable to me with respect to avoiding TD1 hassles. This module does not change the factory ECU settings in any way. It changes the interpretation of the outputs but does not change the code. There is no TD1 detectability.



    CONDITIONS OF TRACK TESTING:

    Stock testing was performed at Palm Beach International Raceway on March 25, 2015. Temperatures were approximately 78 degrees. All three runs were within .06 hundredths of a second of each other and within .3 tenths of a mile per hour of each other in trap speeds. Consistency was obtained. No external factors appeared to skew results. Vehicle was run in dynamic mode with ESP/ASR off. Factory Launch control was utilized. 93 octane pump fuel was utilized.

    APR Stage 1 testing was performed at Palm Beach International Raceway on March 18, 2015. Temperatures were approximately 76 degrees. All three runs were within .1 tenth of a second of each other and within .6 tenths of a mile per hour of each other in trap speeds. Consistency was obtained. No external factors appeared to skew results. Vehicle was run in dynamic mode with ESP/ASR off. Factory Launch control was utilized. 93 octane pump fuel was utilized.

    Chipwerke piggy back testing was performed at Palm Beach International Raceway on April 8, 2015. Temperatures were approximately 80 degrees. All three runs were within .2 tenth of a second of each other and within one mile per hour of each other in trap speeds. Consistency was obtained. No external factors appeared to skew results.Vehicle was run in dynamic mode with ESP/ASR off. Factory Launch control was utilized. 93 octane pump fuel was utilized.


    TRACK RESULTS:

    Stock-
    --------------Run1 – 7:05pm---------------------Run2 – 7:36pm------------Run3 – 7:55pm
    60ft------------1.971------------------------------1.922-------------------------1.948
    1/4 Mile--------13.368-----------------------------13.308------------------------13.311
    Trap-----------102.25-----------------------------102.21------------------------102.56


    APR Stage 1-

    --------------Run1 – 6:44pm-----------------Run2 – 7:01pm----------------Run3 – 7:53pm
    60ft--------------1.982------------------------------1.905-------------------------1.893
    1/4 Mile----------12.998-----------------------------13.011------------------------12.884
    Trap-------------106.10-----------------------------106.04------------------------106.71


    Chipwerke Piggy Back


    --------------Run1 – 7:16pm-----------------Run2 – 7:21pm----------------Run3 – 7:38pm
    60ft--------------1.919------------------------------1.875--------------------------1.915
    1/4 Mile----------12.829-----------------------------12.660------------------------12.882
    Trap-------------108.14-----------------------------109.56------------------------108.12


    DRIVING IMPRESSIONS:

    APR
    The power deliver with the APR software was extremely linear and as smooth as stock. There was no jerkiness. There were no problems with part throttle behavior. There were no misfires. There were no CELs. The power difference was mildly to moderately evident. The programming gave increased confidence when attempting passing.

    Chipwerke
    The power delivery with the Chipwerke piggy back is immediately noticeable. There is no definite jerkiness, misfires or CEL but the car does appear more sensitive to part throttle inputs. When my wife drove the car she says to me, “What did you do to it? I got afraid I was going to rear end somebody when I push on the gas.” There does appear to be more power everywhere in the rev band. Important to note again, there has been zero significant drivability issues. There is no “cutting” or jerkiness. There are no misfires detected. There are no CELs.

    DATALOGGING:

    For informational purposes I have the S model with settings originally set to B1...



    Here is the Chipwerke datalog of two third gear pulls from 2000rpm to redline (dsg redline). What the logs show is that the vehicle is running a safe and stock like air fuel ratio of around 12:1 up top. The timing is also consistent with what is seen in relatively conservative tunes. The actual boost readings are showing as riding just below all the requested/specified boost readings. There are no drastic deviations. Everything looks safe and well engineered from the logs. Settings are B1.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2q...X0k/view?pli=1

    Here is another log. Settings are still B1. Once again this one is showing two back to back 3rd gear pulls from 2000rpm to redline. This log is once again showing a nice safe air fuel, a nice safe looking timing curve, and it is showing that the bypass valve is remaining closed at all times during full throttle giving maximum possible boost...

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2q...AxbEhsVU0/view

    This third log is another group of two third gear pulls. Settings are still B1. This log shows if any knock retard is taking place. You want to see this usually around 6 degrees or less. Some performance tunes have shown upwards of 8 degrees or more of timing pull. That means the car is reacting to knock. The log below is taken in 87 degree heat in south florida and is showing 0 degrees of timing pull from knock on one run and a couple degrees in the second run. This looks very nice and safe...

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2q...FyS2ZnZkk/view

    Here is a big monster datalog of settings B1, then D1, then F1 on 93 octane at sea level...

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2q...ew?usp=sharing

    Here is a log that has two different runs. The first is the car with the Chipwerke piggy back set to B1. It shows afr, timing, knock, exhaust gas temps. The second run is the car completely stock without the piggy back. It shows the stock afr, timing, knock, and exhaust gas temps.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2q...RMLV83Nzg/view


    Here are two datalogs with the S box set to D1 on 93 octane and with the addition of a 2.266 inch blower pulley. DO NOT CHANGE YOUR BLOWER PULLEY WITH THIS. I have done 200 wide open throttle runs (in sets of back to back 40 runs) logging and monitoring the engine. DONT DO THIS YOURSELF....SERIOUSLY...I KNOW YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT IT NOW....DONT.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2q...ew?usp=sharing


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2q...ew?usp=sharing


    OTHER DATALOGS:

    Here is a log from forum member Retell who was running a mix if 91 octane and 100 octane to make a total of 93 octane in his car. Note he was running an aggressive F1 setting on his car. This is a more aggressive setting than is recommended. Under WOT he evidenced up to 10 degrees of knock correction activity. This is the most you would want to ever see on the car and indicates the F1 setting is too aggressive for 93 octane.

    http://datazap.me/u/boostede90/chipw...g=0&data=3-6-7

    Here is the same member Retells logs using the aggressive E1 setting on 94.5 octane fuel. It shows zero knock retard activity.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/nktzekqifj...-6161.CSV?dl=0

    More on the same car running 94.5 octane and using E1 settings…

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/nktzekqifj...-6161.CSV?dl=0
    http://datazap.me/u/boostede90/chipw...4-9-10&mark=35

    Here is his car running straight 91 octane on the aggressive settings E1. There was a maximum of 4.125 knock correction…

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/qd6p80k09s...20E85.CSV?dl=0
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/otskrly2tv...20E85.CSV?dl=0

    Here is forum member Black Vipers log of his car on 91 octane with the settings D1. He had a maximum knock activity of 8.625 degrees. This indicates the D1 setting is the highest he would likely want to run on 91 octane. B1 to C1 settings may be more optimal for his fuel…

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1k...VWc/view?pli=1

    Here is member LWE613 log on his Audi A6 running settings B1 on 93 octane. There is a max of 5 degrees knock activity which indicates this is a reasonable setting for him.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

    Here is forum member "Laserrs" log on his Audi A6 running settings D1 on the Pro model on Shell 93 octane. There is a max of 5-6 degrees of knock activity which indicates this is a reasonable setting for him.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/pbej3g0iw2...shell.CSV?dl=0

    This log is from forum member t3han0maly in his 2014 S4 with the 6MT running 93 octane on the chipwerke S with settings B1. This log looks great. Zero knock retard.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/zjbpp2e36k...-6161.CSV?dl=0

    DYNOS:

    The following are the Mustang dyno results comparing a 2015 S4 DSG in stock form and then with the Chipwerke set to B1 on 93 octane fuel. The vehicle gained 49whp.




    This Chipwerke dyno is from forum member Retell. He gained between 48whp and 67whp on the dyno dynamics dyno...




    SUMMARY:

    I am overwhelmingly pleased with the results of the Chipwerke piggy back. Results from Audi A6 and A7 users had been universally positive but I was still skeptical. The Chipwerke piggy back provided a greater performance advantage over the APR stage 1 programming. It is noticeable in everyday driving and the numbers are backed up at the track. The piggy back meets all of the criteria I was shopping for. It is a removable solution that will not trigger a TD1 hassle and it provides solid performance gains. It does not negatively impact drivability or cause any faults. The APR software was flawless in its operation as well. The downside is at $1299 dollars you still cannot easily remove the APR software at home or on the side of the road and it does not provide as much of an increase in mile performance or real world observable performance over the $349 Chipwerke piggy back. This is a great solution for those not wanting any warranty hassles and who plan on stopping at the stage 1 level of performance.

    FEEDBACK:

    Thanks for forum member "retell" for doing this. He has set up the following link that people can use to report their experiences with this piggy back...

    Link to form
    Link to results

    Chipwerke FAQ:

    What is the difference between the "S" model and the "Pro" model?


    The S model uses a plastic case. The Pro model uses an aluminum case.

    The manufacturer claims the S model uses an 8 bit microprecessor and the Pro model uses a 32 bit processor and claims a small increase in power consequently. This cannot be confirmed or denied because the internal board is potted and cannot be seen.

    What are the settings people are talking about?

    Both the chipwerke S and Pro use identical boards with identical control knobs for adjusting two different settings. The left knob controls the amount of signal underboost. The right knob appears to determine when the unit triggers but it is reported the right knob should not be changed.

    What settings should mine be set at?

    The chipwerke S appears to be shipped out with the settings at "B, 1"

    Up until 4/25/15 the chipwerke Pro appeared to be shipped out with the settings at "D,1". This may account for the manufacturer claiming a performance increase in the Pro model.

    As of 4/15/15 the chipwerke pro is now shipped out with the settings at "1,1". These settings are based on an updated map that is now being used. The settings 1,1 roughly correspond to the B,1 settings of the older units.

    Logging has indicated that on cars with a lower redline (DSG cars) using the less aggressive "B, 1" (or new "1,1" for the pro) settings results in the bypass remaining completely closed. There does not appear to be any reason to run more aggressive settings than this for DSG cars.

    For vehicles with the 6MT, it would be advised to log the bypass valve at settings "B,1" and up through "D, 1" and on to find the lowest setting that your car exhibits a completely closed bypass valve while also exhibiting reasonable knock retard (less than 6 would be best).

    If you notice any driveability concerns, it seems that making sure your settings are on the less aggressive "B, 1" settings (1,1 for the new pro model) will eliminate this. This seems to be more of a concern for DSG drivers.

    How do I log my car?

    Here are some threads to get you started. Remember, the channel numbers may have changed so pay attention to the channel names so you know you are logging the right ones.

    http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...rmance-Logging
    http://www.goapr.com/support/datalogging.php

    Will this work if I am at high altitude?

    Depending on how high it may not give much benefit. To find out you should log your bypass valve on your stock car. If your car is already closing the bypass valve all of the time due to struggling to meet requested boost targets you are not likely to see any improvement. This would also be true of any stage 1 tune for your car. You would need a smaller supercharger pulley in order to mechanically spin the supercharger faster and make increased boost.



    Mike
    Last edited by bhvrdr; 10-28-2015 at 07:37 PM.

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  2. #2
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    Well done.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Two Rings Sudz's Avatar
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    Good thing, this probably won't produce a TD1 at a dealership if it is removed.
    In the BMW world, piggybacks weren't detected after being removed.

  4. #4
    Established Member Two Rings smohr33's Avatar
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    Still wondering why nobody in the US has taken a shot at piggybacks on this platform... the price delta from our current tunes is huge, and fear of TD1 is eliminated.

    We all know modern BMW's (N54, N55, N20, N63 etc...) are big piggyback users making lots of power for little money, with good reliability records.

    This is very interesting...

  5. #5
    Veteran Member Three Rings
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    Thanks for doing this. Piggy backs just seem to have a bad rep around Audi forums for some reason. Maybe this will spark some discussion here so the more knowledgeable folks can provide some more info regarding piggybacks whether it be positive or negative. I'm definitely interested in learning more, especially based on your results. I think my biggest concern is whether the piggyback circumvents the cars built in safe guards to get the increase in performance you are seeing.

  6. #6
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Yes, there are age old debates about remaps versus piggy backs. I hope that doesnt happen here. There is no question that both methods of tuning can produce disastrous results and both methods of tuning can produce very safe and effective results.

    The bottom line is that a piggy back can cause damage if not properly engineered and a flash/remap can cause damage as well if not properly engineered.

    Recall that a few years ago everyone was ragging on Revo because they retuned the stock knock control on the car so it wouldnt pull timing as aggressively. They, in fact, modified the factory safe guards. Likewise, if you create a tune that has too much timing or an improper afr there is only so much the computer can do to compensate. So tunes are not without their dangers. Similarly, if they are not tuned aggressively enough, they may not produce the results people are expecting.

    Piggy backs are not any different in that they can cause problems if not engineered correctly and they can produce no positive results if not engineered properly. They are not bypassing any factory safeguards. This car will still pull timing if it senses knock. Unlike on tunes where you can manipulate the knock sensors, the piggy back has no control over that. If the car starts to knock, it will pull timing.

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  7. #7
    Senior Member Two Rings Sudz's Avatar
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    In the BMW world piggybacked cars sold as CPO's because the DME and software wasn't touched.
    On the flip side, you have to believe the manufactures surf these forums, that's why I use my real name, Joe Blow.

  8. #8
    Veteran Member Three Rings
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    The first tune product for this platform was a piggyback by MTM. It cost around 3 grand and the ECU eventually figured out how to work around it as people reported that the performance improvements eventually wore off until the ECU was reset. Perhaps this new piggyback won't have that issue.
    2017 Q7 - Orca Black - Black - Vision - Driver Assistance - Cold Weather - Warm Weather
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    bhvrdr I understand there are a couple adjustment dials on the Chipwerke (if so, what are yours set at?)

  10. #10
    Established Member Two Rings FiftyFive's Avatar
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    Very interesting indeed. 12.6?? Wow

  11. #11
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    The MTM unit was tested and designed on european models and never did well on the US cars.

    This one has performed well on US models.

    http://www.audiworld.com/forums/a6-c...sults-2859611/

    What impresses me about the 12.6 at 109 is that this is south florida and it was over 80 degrees out. I cant wait to run this in Jan/Feb. If I can catch a 50 degree day (once per yea here, lol) it will be sweet.

    Regarding the settings, I have not opened it yet.

    Mike

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  12. #12
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    I'd guess based on trap speeds the APR added maybe 35 whp and the Chipwerke more like 55-60 whp. Perhaps another tune like GIAC or REVO might perform better on your 2015 car, but I doubt it could really surpass the Chipwerke based on those numbers. Pretty impressive.

  13. #13
    Veteran Member Three Rings
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    Hey Mike, regarding your comment that your wife made, was the car in dynamic engine mode? Is it as sensitive to partial throttle in comfort engine mode?

  14. #14
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Great stuff! Definitely interested in trying this out.
    2018 SQ5
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    2014 S4 - Sold
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  15. #15
    Senior Member Two Rings
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    Anyone else running the chipwerkes piggy back? Seems like it could be a great option.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Four Rings The Fat Kid's Avatar
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    Great write up!

    Faster than APR, no drivability issues, easy DIY installation, reduced probability of TD1, and a fraction of the cost... Now I know where to look when I get bored with stock !

  17. #17
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Here's another piggyback option: https://www.racechip-usa.com/chiptun...2014%29-245kw/

    I think i remember seeing an C7 RS6 having a racechip piggyback on it.
    2013 S4 DSG| Glacier White|Premium Plus| ADS-lite| Sport diff| Carbon atlas inlays| Supercharged badges| B&O| Nav| 19 x 9.5 Avant Garde M510 Galaxy Black| 28% Tint|StaSIS exhaust|JP Carbon Mirrors|Solo Werks|Alcon|ECS StreetShield|

  18. #18
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eurotic View Post
    Hey Mike, regarding your comment that your wife made, was the car in dynamic engine mode? Is it as sensitive to partial throttle in comfort engine mode?
    Hi there. During DD my car is set up to start up in Individual mode with has the enging/trans in dynamic and the soundakator in dynamic and the steering in comfort. The problem is when you start the car the trans does not start in Sport mode so my wife was probably driving it in Drive mode as opposed to Sport mode. She's actually pretty sensitive to changes in my car (like she can tell the difference right away in steering settings) so she likely was noticing the added power as opposed to any actual driveability issue.

    Mike

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  19. #19
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by egyptianzeus View Post
    Here's another piggyback option: https://www.racechip-usa.com/chiptun...2014%29-245kw/

    I think i remember seeing an C7 RS6 having a racechip piggyback on it.
    When people opened up the Race Chip and the Chipwerke the internals looked "extremely similar"... like "extremely similar". I emailed racechip and they told me they had modules ready for all years up until march of 2014 and after march of 2014 they had changes to be made to their module. They told me one would be ready mid year.

    I also emailed Neuspeed about development of one of their piggy backs and they stated they are considering development for this engine but couldnt give a firm date.

    Mike

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  20. #20
    Veteran Member Four Rings mojangles69's Avatar
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    Great write-up, bhvdr!

    Thorough and well-written! Thanks for taking the time to put this together! Chipwerke seems like a great option, especially because of price and less probability of TD1 issues.

    Thank you!
    2015 S4 - Sepang Blue - S-tronic - Black/Silver Nappa - Sports Diff - B&O - Tech - Carbon Atlas
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    FOR SALE
    2003 Audi A4 1.8T - APR Stage 3+ KO4 Turbo Upgrade and much more!!!

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  21. #21
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    When people opened up the Race Chip and the Chipwerke the internals looked "extremely similar"... like "extremely similar". I emailed racechip and they told me they had modules ready for all years up until march of 2014 and after march of 2014 they had changes to be made to their module. They told me one would be ready mid year.

    I also emailed Neuspeed about development of one of their piggy backs and they stated they are considering development for this engine but couldnt give a firm date.

    Mike
    I wonder if chipwerke is just a reseller with a different name of the racechip. Racechip has three different modules while chipwerke only has two. The pro version of Chipwerke is $450 while the racechip is $680. I can't imagine one being almost $200 better, since they are essentially the same product. I could be wrong though. There are tons of racechip videos on youtube, but I couldn't find any chipwerke videos. either way, the piggyback options seems like a good option.
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    Veteran Member Four Rings Johnnycash's Avatar
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    I notice the racechip advertises increased fuel economy gains, even with the performance benefits, did you see any gains at all in mpg?
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    I emailed racechip and they told me they had modules ready for all years up until march of 2014 and after march of 2014 they had changes to be made to their module. They told me one would be ready mid year.
    Mike
    That's interesting - MTM also had to release a new S4 piggyback for 05/14-later manufactured dates (in fact website still says 'coming soon'). This aligns mostly with the 2015 model year. Makes you wonder what changed in 2015 and if your comparison and results may in fact be somewhat unique to a 2015.

  24. #24
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Well the folks on the A6/A7 boards had great results with their earlier model cars so it seems to work well regardless of years but yes I agree it is interesting that there seems to be a change. I'm a bit surprised none of our big 3 tuners have mentioned what the difference was.

    With respect to fuel economy I cant honestly comment on it. I drive in sport mode at all times and am pretty hard on the throttle. I get about 180 miles per tank now and always have on this car. You dont want to judge your fuel economy off of me. I would be the one who screws up the averages of other S4 drivers :)

    Mike

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    Well the folks on the A6/A7 boards had great results with their earlier model cars so it seems to work well regardless of years but yes I agree it is interesting that there seems to be a change. I'm a bit surprised none of our big 3 tuners have mentioned what the difference was. Mike
    So does the Chipwerke actually have a unique version for the [alleged] ~2015 model year change or are they using the same one as before?

  26. #26
    Veteran Member Four Rings Johnnycash's Avatar
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    just curious if those claims they advertise are realistic? not that anyone buys an s4 for its world beater mpgs!
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  27. #27
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    I'm not entirely sure if chipwerke has a separate model for the 2015. I got the impression that it was the same but I could be wrong.

    Mike

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
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    Gone:
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    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
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  28. #28
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Very interesting. APR always seems like they are behind lately... late to the DSG party, late to this party, RSC party which was held in a shack instead of the advertised mansion, etc etc

  29. #29
    Established Member Two Rings smohr33's Avatar
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    One more thing that works to a piggybacks favor is they are resalable, whereas a flash is tied to your ecu. I ran a JB on my F30 for 3 years, removed it when I sold the car, and sold it for about half what I paid.

    Net cost of something like $100-150 versus over $1000 for a stage 1 tune...

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    I'm not entirely sure if chipwerke has a separate model for the 2015. I got the impression that it was the same but I could be wrong.

    Mike
    I recall the MTM also hooked into some other things (incl. the fuel sensor) based on Voltron's thread years back. Lowering the MAP sensor alone would theoretically cause the car to run lean as it makes the airflow calculation lower than actual, but Chipwerke must rely on the ECU wideband sensor feedback to add fuel.

  31. #31
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    I have been reading the "TD1 one-stop shop" thread as I am kicking around the idea of getting a tune. OP, I am not familiar with where the MAP and IAT sensors are located. Can you elaborate on that, as well as confirm whether this solution is truly "plug & play" or is there some wire stripping/splicing involved?

    What I'm getting at is - since the piggyback does not flash the ECU, then it seems that a scan of the car by an Audi technician would show nothing other than the stock ECU settings and flash count. And if the piggyback can be installed and removed without any disturbance of original mechanical or electrical components, then this solution would be truly undetectable to an Audi technician.

    Obviously the inherent risk of damage due to operating the engine outside of its stock parameters still exists, but that's a separate issue and common to all aftermarket tuning options as you pointed out. I'm specifically concerned with detectability, both from a software and physical standpoint, after the piggyback module has been removed.
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  32. #32
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Hi steve,

    Check this link and you will see the two sensors I referenced...

    http://www.s4-mtm.com/images/925803_3.0V6TFSIengine.pdf

    If you look at the supercharger there are two senors, one on each side. VVVV not my car but you get the idea



    The piggy back is 100% plug and play. It uses OEM quality factory connectors that simply plug into the OEM connectors on the car. You are simply running an intercept on two sensors. No splicing.

    Mike
    Last edited by bhvrdr; 04-09-2015 at 03:19 PM.

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    Hi steve,

    Check this link and you will see the two sensors I referenced...

    http://www.s4-mtm.com/images/925803_3.0V6TFSIengine.pdf

    The piggy back is 100% plug and play. It uses OEM quality factory connectors that simply plug into the OEM connectors on the car. You are simply running an intercept on two sensors. No splicing.

    Mike
    Awesome, thanks Mike!
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  34. #34
    Is it possible for the piggyback to be paired with a pulley upgrade and achieve stage 2 numbers?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  35. #35
    Established Member Two Rings BLT10's Avatar
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    This is very interesting. Also curious about the detect-ability.
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  36. #36
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    I wonder what Chipwerke does with the IAT sensor signal... would be interesting to eventually get some logs of this to see what is going on with both the manipulated sensors along with how fuel,timing, etc. adjust

  37. #37
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    I would not want to take the chance of running a pulley with this piggy back. You'd be asking the ecu to compensate for quite a bit of added boost there. Its always possible it could work but you'd need to log it and since I dont have any interest in a pulley upgrade maybe someone else will take the plunge.

    For detectability, this unit make absolutely no change to the OEM code or flash count. If you run a spec versus actual analysis on the code in your ECU it will remain identical. Nothing gets flashed onto the ECU.

    Now I havent thrown any underboost codes or fuel trim codes but if you did, it still would not prove the car was ever tuned. Plenty of hardware issues can cause those codes. There would be no way to say a bad PCV valve didnt cause the codes or whatever. Of course you can always clear any codes you ever get as well. I havent had to yet but i'll let you guys know if anything pops up.

    Mike

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by derek.kritz View Post
    Is it possible for the piggyback to be paired with a pulley upgrade and achieve stage 2 numbers?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The more the actual boost diverges from the MAP sensor output, the more unmetered air you have flowing in the engine and the more the air/fuel ratio gets out of whack that ECU has to adjust beyond the base fuel tables. At some point I imagine it hits a limit and that probably trips something (at least a CEL light).

    [Edit - missed bhvrdr's response but he explained it better above]

  39. #39
    Senior Member Four Rings The Fat Kid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveYem View Post
    I have been reading the "TD1 one-stop shop" thread as I am kicking around the idea of getting a tune. OP, I am not familiar with where the MAP and IAT sensors are located. Can you elaborate on that, as well as confirm whether this solution is truly "plug & play" or is there some wire stripping/splicing involved?

    What I'm getting at is - since the piggyback does not flash the ECU, then it seems that a scan of the car by an Audi technician would show nothing other than the stock ECU settings and flash count. And if the piggyback can be installed and removed without any disturbance of original mechanical or electrical components, then this solution would be truly undetectable to an Audi technician.

    Obviously the inherent risk of damage due to operating the engine outside of its stock parameters still exists, but that's a separate issue and common to all aftermarket tuning options as you pointed out. I'm specifically concerned with detectability, both from a software and physical standpoint, after the piggyback module has been removed.
    There has been speculation that Audi can scan the ECU and look at your logged info, so suddenly having a between-service 50hp+ bump on the graph might raise a red flag.

    Edit: Never mind - The ECU should not log anything anomalous since it should not even know the piggyback system is there.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZT View Post
    I wonder what Chipwerke does with the IAT sensor signal... would be interesting to eventually get some logs of this to see what is going on with both the manipulated sensors along with how fuel,timing, etc. adjust
    I'm pretty sure it's sending a lower iat signal to the ecu so it increases timing advance. It's pretending you have a good ic.

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