Finally Doing Timing with 164k on the Clock!

[VR6OhMy]

Anyone have a part number for this o-ring? I don't believe this one is in this Timing Chain FAQ..

[gcoy]

I just dug through my paper work & this is what I found.

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

In the second pic, the seal #67 is listed under part #23 as #N 906 384 02

I looked at my parts list that I ordered when I did this job. I did not order this seal.
I went out to the garage and looked at my old timing parts and there was no seal on the old tensioner.
I must have reused this seal.

I hope this helps....

[FormulaElement]

I re-used the old seal and put a very little amount of sealant on it. I actually did that with all of tensioners.

I used Reinzosil on everything that i needed to seal and its worked perfect. Definitely recommend it over the OEM Loctite stuff

[VR6OhMy]

I just dug through my paper work & this is what I found.

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

In the second pic, the seal #67 is listed under part #23 as #N 906 384 02

I looked at my parts list that I ordered when I did this job. I did not order this seal.
I went out to the garage and looked at my old timing parts and there was no seal on the old tensioner.
I must have reused this seal.

I hope this helps....

Awesome post! Thanks Sir!

[SlickFix]

This thread keeps getting better and better. Thanks to all of the contributors!

A couple questions:

- Is most everyone using the Bentley guide for this job? I don't have it yet, only because it isn't supported on Windows 7.

- Where does one get a copy of ETKA? Is a torrent the only realistic way without spending thousands of dollars?

If you'd rather PM me regarding ETKA, I understand and appreciate it.

[badger.]

Anyone have a part number for this o-ring? I don't believe this one is in this Timing Chain FAQ..

It's not in the Timing FAQ or any of JHMs kits from as much as I can tell, unless it is preinstalled on the new tensioner.. Maybe Jake can chime in on the degree of necessity of this and/or why it isn't in the kits if the stuff from gcoy says to replace it? I didn't. I can't see it causing catastrophic failure immediately but I don't know the long term ramifications of lacking that oring.

I just dug through my paper work & this is what I found.
I looked at my parts list that I ordered when I did this job. I did not order this seal.
I went out to the garage and looked at my old timing parts and there was no seal on the old tensioner.
I must have reused this seal.

I hope this helps....

Did you actually re-use it or remember re-using it? I wonder if anyone else that has done the timing work has missed this one. I'd be curious to hear. Either way, I hope to fire it up tomorrow if I can find a store open that sells power steering fluid. I thought I had enough but I don't think I do. Engine is back in. Piggies are done. Just some electrical plugs, coolant lines, and the front end need to go back together.

[badger.]

This thread keeps getting better and better. Thanks to all of the contributors!

A couple questions:

- Is most everyone using the Bentley guide for this job? I don't have it yet, only because it isn't supported on Windows 7.

- Where does one get a copy of ETKA? Is a torrent the only realistic way without spending thousands of dollars?

If you'd rather PM me regarding ETKA, I understand and appreciate it.

I bought the Bentley, it is useful for torque specs and some diagrams. Some of it is confusing. It is written assuming you have all the little Audi/VW tools. I'd say overall it was well worth it.

I got it running on windows 7 using Virtual PC - XP mode (free download if you have win 7 pro/ultimate maybe?)

Also once you activate there is an online version, which is just as good if not better (because you can print/save pdf much easier than through virtual PC) I've just been using that, works great. Keep the laptop in the garage with me for quick reference.

[Foot]

I did not transfer this other circular o-ring. Nothing has mentioned it! This is the first I've heard. What are the consequences? I am ready to put the engine back in tomorrow morning and really not going to pull it all apart again.

My guess is that you'll have an internal oil leak that causes that tentioner to bounce a bit with the chain (just like in your video), but since the new RS4 chain guide is metal on that chain maybe it'll survive. I totally understand why you don't want to open it up again. Maybe lots of people don't put it in since it's not in the JHM kit? I'd like to hear what Jake says too. Or maybe that o-ring fails and breaks that stupid guide everybody's been talking about. lol Let us know if it has any start up rattle.

I had broken chain guide and bad mechanical adjusters and bad oil check valves. My engine had terrible chain rattle on start up and warm start too. It now has no rattle (I also replaced the oil check valves and mechanical adjusters)


wobbled out adjuster:


So if you have rattle and I don't ...it may be that little o-ring.

[FormulaElement]

Mine still has a cold rattle (a second) using that o-ring and sealant on the tensioners with new check valves... I can live with it since i have the peace of mind at this point. The only other causes for the rattle are a oil pump not running at 100% or the oil type/weight. I will try different oils now, i did before but none helped the rattle. My guide was broken in half though.

If you forgot the o-ring i highly doubt that it will cause any problems. But it's still strange that JHM doesn't include it in their kit when that chain/guide are the most prone to breaking. Maybe they don't think it's needed with the metal guide or its hard to source?

[2004B6S4]

interesting info about these o-rings, and great thread! my understanding is that the tensioners are hydraulically pressurized with engine oil, and that one cause of startup rattle is from a lack of sufficient oil pressure inside the tensioners? I wonder if this o-ring goes around the oil port, and if not installing it could cause problems where the tensioner doesn't reach the proper internal oil pressure and/or loses pressure too quickly/easily? maybe that could explain why some people still have the rattle after doing the timing chain work?

[SlickFix]

Also once you activate there is an online version, which is just as good if not better (because you can print/save pdf much easier than through virtual PC) I've just been using that, works great. Keep the laptop in the garage with me for quick reference.

I did not know that! That's great news, and has removed any last doubt about purchasing.

[Slow4]

When we did my refresh, the seal in question was re-used. I don't recall it being on my list of items I purchased via GAP.

[badger.]

interesting info about these o-rings, and great thread! my understanding is that the tensioners are hydraulically pressurized with engine oil, and that one cause of startup rattle is from a lack of sufficient oil pressure inside the tensioners? I wonder if this o-ring goes around the oil port, and if not installing it could cause problems where the tensioner doesn't reach the proper internal oil pressure and/or loses pressure too quickly/easily? maybe that could explain why some people still have the rattle after doing the timing chain work?

This is similar to my line of thinking. But hard to say. It has to cover an oil port on the block otherwise it would serve no purpose. But the oring in there is fairly deformed/flat. Is the new one so flat? Idk

[BCsniper]

It's not in the Timing FAQ or any of JHMs kits from as much as I can tell, unless it is preinstalled on the new tensioner.. Maybe Jake can chime in on the degree of necessity of this and/or why it isn't in the kits if the stuff from gcoy says to replace it?

it's definitely not pre-installed on the new tensioner. I had to pull the o-ring off the old one and transfer it to the new one. I saw that my instructions said to replace it. First thing I thought when I read it was how JHM says "includes all bolts, o-rings, and seals needed to do the job".


Also JHM includes another seal that goes from the accessory gear to the power steering pump. Is anybody really replacing this?

Getting to that piece means removing that whole gear-drive assembly out which also includes another seal and a few more o-rings that would need to be replaced. Why even include this one seal that nobody is going to use? And if you are going to include it, why not supply the other seal and 3 o-rings that would be needed just to get to it?



also, sorry if this is a dumb question but where do the two o-rings go that are in the center of the JHM kit?

[Slow4]

also, sorry if this is a dumb question but where do the two o-rings go that are in the center of the JHM kit?

Maybe they're suppose to be the diamond cut washers that are suppose to go between the adjusters? I'll have to ask Jimmy but that was something I NEEDED to order extra.

I don't remember if he used them or not; I was probably too busy messing around with the cylinder heads.

[badger.]

Ok ready for next round of pictures..

Replaced that damn green o-ring! Only set me back about a day.


Both Mechanical Adjusters actually looked very, very good for being stock as far as I can tell. Very minor wallowing of the pin holes.



I got new ones in the JHM kit so I replaced them anyways. Diassembling the old:


Old vs New:


Another bone to pick on this JHM kit... the new tiny pin spacers (white pieces) that slide along the backside anbd allow oil behind the pin were both too big. I lost the old ones when I popped the adjusters apart (little things went flying to god knows where) so I couldn't reuse the old ones. I had to sand down the new ones with sandpaper around the circumference to reduce the diameter enough to where they could slide in and out.



Shot of top cylinder timing cover ready to go back on:


Here is that damned crank shim I didn't realize was there at first. It only fits over the crank end one way, the bolts are all slightly offset. Marking it before removal would save some time realigning.


With the shim off the rear seal goes in much easier. With some silicone lube I used the plastic piece it came shipped with at first to get it partially in placed, then it tapped on fairly readily with a small block of wood and a hammer. I just worked my way around.


For all you folks questioning my choice of words earlier, the tip trans does not have a "flywheel". This is the "drive plate" I mentioned earlier. The torque converter bolts to those 3 bolts around the perimeter through the starter hole once the trans is back on.



I also did my valley pan gasket. Lots of cleaning!



Shout out to my beautiful wife who let me spend money on parts and hasn't gotten too mad at me for living in the garage the last week. She even came to visit once!



Valve cover gaskets were very brittle and stuck on. Those center caps are a job to get off. I had to tap all around with a putty knife then pry out with a flat screwdriver.



Before it started raining (I'm by Louisville, decided to catch on fire and flood out this week, been insane)



Piggie pipes before and after:



Last question, can I mix these two coolants?
"Pentofrost ++" and "Pentofrost SF?"
http://i.imgur.com/6KNVnlu.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6xSTbI3.jpg


Today I need to get the rest of the electrical & coolant connections back on, then get the whole front end on. Hopefully can fire her up tonight!? I need to get busy. Happy Easter!

[Slow4]

I don't think that white spacers are suppose to move in and out, it's just used as a base for the spring and pin.

Reference my pic:



Note how my spacer just sits on the sprocket with the back facing up? The spring is suppose to fit on the spacer so when oil gets injected, it pushes the pin (iirc).

Pic of spring and spacer in upper right on top of adjuster backing:

[gcoy]

also, sorry if this is a dumb question but where do the two o-rings go that are in the center of the JHM kit?

BC, I believe you are referring to #14 The Hydraulic Controller Seals ??

[IMG][/IMG]

[gcoy]

Anyone have a part number for this o-ring? I don't believe this one is in this Timing Chain FAQ..

I just added this link to the Timing Chain FAQ

[Vertol]

Nice thread....impressed. I just bought the oil retention valve kit from ECS. I am nervous about pulling the Intake. Not for the difficulty of the work just at the possibility of breaking something. lots of hoses and connections to pull apart and things get brittle over time.

[BCsniper]

BC, I believe you are referring to #14 The Hydraulic Controller Seals ??

[IMG][/IMG]

#14 are actually 2 of the other seals that JHM does include. I've already replaced those. The 2 I'm talking about ate very thin...like o-rings just with a larger diameter


Also, I had the same issue with that small plastic spacer. Mine is in there tight as hell right now and I hope that's okay because the mech adjusters have already been torqued

[badger.]

#14 are actually 2 of the other seals that JHM does include. I've already replaced those. The 2 I'm talking about ate very thin...like o-rings just with a larger diameter


Also, I had the same issue with that small plastic spacer. Mine is in there tight as hell right now and I hope that's okay because the mech adjusters have already been torqued

I think the two center o-rings are the rear coolant crossover line o-rings. At least that is what I used them for.

P/N: N90989503
round seal o-ring 30x2.5

Maybe this will help someone. I made this for cross reference before ordering parts. I think it is accurate. Far right two columns correspond with the #s on the JHM kit pic. Red is Intermediate Kit, Blue is parts in Full Plus Kit

[badger.]

I don't think that white spacers are suppose to move in and out, it's just used as a base for the spring and pin.

Reference my pic:



Note how my spacer just sits on the sprocket with the back facing up? The spring is suppose to fit on the spacer so when oil gets injected, it pushes the pin (iirc).

Pic of spring and spacer in upper right on top of adjuster backing:

I couldn't even get the new ones to snap in at all. Tried for about 10 minutes. The new ones could "float"inside the pin shaft hole. The spring would keep it pressed against the backside once the unit is together, so as long as you got it seated inside the pin hole I think it would be alright.

[Slow4]

I couldn't even get the new ones to snap in at all. Tried for about 10 minutes. The new ones could "float"inside the pin shaft hole. The spring would keep it pressed against the backside once the unit is together, so as long as you got it seated inside the pin hole I think it would be alright.

Ah, I see what you mean. I thought you had the spacer moving in and out of the hole as your rotated the sprocket...

[kavitzy]

What are the consequences?

Haha I never did it and I have about 10k on it with no rattle.
JHM you should include some instructions where those gaskets go because I even made a post to this forum and no one had a clue at the time.

[Foot]

it's definitely not pre-installed on the new tensioner. I had to pull the o-ring off the old one and transfer it to the new one. I saw that my instructions said to replace it. First thing I thought when I read it was how JHM says "includes all bolts, o-rings, and seals needed to do the job".


Also JHM includes another seal that goes from the accessory gear to the power steering pump. Is anybody really replacing this?

Getting to that piece means removing that whole gear-drive assembly out which also includes another seal and a few more o-rings that would need to be replaced. Why even include this one seal that nobody is going to use? And if you are going to include it, why not supply the other seal and 3 o-rings that would be needed just to get to it?



also, sorry if this is a dumb question but where do the two o-rings go that are in the center of the JHM kit?

[badger.]

I didn't replace the oil pump shaft seal that came with the kit. Didn't even pull that gear unit out.

[FormulaElement]

I didn't replace the oil pump shaft seal that came with the kit. Didn't even pull that gear unit out.

It's really for the power steering gear. Mine looked like it was leaking a little bit and it was super easy to do in the scope of things. Took around 20 minutes. Figured it was worth getting out of the way.

The white part that allows oil to go into the mechanical adjusters is supposed to be hard to get in as its a interference fit. If it's not snug it may wear down in time because of all the friction caused from moving, plastic isn't the strongest material. When its jammed in there in one spot only the tip of it will wear off.

[badger.]

She fired up last night!! No rattle



Have to get the weather stripping back on and the splash shields re-installed then get her off the jack stands before taking a drive. Can't wait!!

Before starting I did 3 engine prime runs (crank for 20-30 seconds with plugs out and fuel pump fuse out), checking fluids and letting it cool 2-3 minutes between each time.

Then started it up! I only ran it for a few seconds in this vid (the very first start) since the power steering fluid is so finicky and needs topped off a few times after that system is drained.

In other news, I got the new Tip trans cooler from JHM installed. Did a little writeup in that thread:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...1#post10631551

Been a long week. My hands are a little sore!

[Vertol]

Congrats....nice job. You have inspired me to tackle the oil retention valves and do the intake spacers.

[Slow4]

Good work Sir!

[TarlCabot]

Wow... great job bet that sounds is soo sweet, once all your hard earned time and money involved in that job, now finish her up and go enjoy that beast

If anybody needs/wants to rent or buy the tools to do this yourself, i have mine back in and ready to ship... give me a PM

[Foot]

Sounds good. Nice work. That didn't have any chain rattle either.

[Holographic77]

Great Job Man! And While that stand looks sketchy I bet it's nice to have everything up higher to work on.



I'm still in the middle of working on my car as well. Mine's going pretty slow since I've been spending more time in bed with the GF watching tv/movies instead of late nights in the garage like I had thought initially.







No broken guides here. Everything on mine looked in great shape. Cam Adj. Sprockets even looked nearly new:

What mileage?

[gcoy]

Nice work!!! That's a big job in one week. You will smile Everytime you start your car :)

[badger.]

Got about 30 miles on her today. No rattle in maybe 10 starts. No leaks that I can see. I'm cautiously optimistic everything is good to go. Piggies and relocated O2 sensors haven't thrown a code, so hopefully I did that right.
Feels good

Still need to find a way to top off my trans fluid. I couldn't get the fill bolt out, it started to buckle the trans pan when I was pulling on it. The last shop that filled it must've impacted that sucker on there Is there any other way to add fluid? I was thinking of maybe popping a line off the new cooler and just pumping some in with a hand pump into the return line?

[SprintBlueWorld]

Awesome work! Congrats on the return of your S4 and gracious thanks for your contribution to the community with this nitty gritty nuts bolts and seals thread.

[Lucca M]

good job buddy! glad she is back on the road ! and your idea bout pumping fluid into return lines sounds good.

[jmcdermott]

How do you like the piggies so far?

[FormulaElement]

Got about 30 miles on her today. No rattle in maybe 10 starts. No leaks that I can see. I'm cautiously optimistic everything is good to go. Piggies and relocated O2 sensors haven't thrown a code, so hopefully I did that right.
Feels good

Still need to find a way to top off my trans fluid. I couldn't get the fill bolt out, it started to buckle the trans pan when I was pulling on it. The last shop that filled it must've impacted that sucker on there Is there any other way to add fluid? I was thinking of maybe popping a line off the new cooler and just pumping some in with a hand pump into the return line?

Congrats on getting it running with no leaks and rattles!

I believe the transmission fill plug is on the side of the transmission housing near the back. The one on the trans pan is the drain plug. Be sure to follow the Audi filling procedures when doing this. Pretty much you turn the car on and keep adding fluid. You'll know its full when the trans fluid temp is around 40˚C (VCDS required) and fluid keeps coming out of the drain plug.

You will need a hand pump.