coilover question

[Aundrealti]

Is it me.. but I installed the solo-werks coilovers on my b6 s4.. and they ride softer than the stock springs? and I have no wheel gap(on purpose, but figured this would stiffen them up a bit).. I mean I know they were a little cheaper and all but.. I take a corner "hardish" and I dive right in..

.....having second thoughts

Any suggestions? take them off? I know I cant get the best of both worlds but a little of each?
I had vogtlands on my ctsv and I felt like I was sitting on the pavement.. now I feel like im sitting on the pavement but floating in every corner..

[moyenecorniche]

Probably because they are definitely not rated for a 3800 lbs car. Soft is because they cannot handle the cars weight especially up front. All those solowerks are advertised for the MK TT platform , much lighter smaller cars. You will probably blow these up fairly rapidly.
Look at the new generation of ST's, those are one's I'm thinking about.

[Slow4]

KW V3s
PSS9s
H/R Perf - middle of line
Vogt GTs


Basics, from good to best; pss9 and V3s offer damping

There are a few others out there that I can't remember off to my head; I was looking into replacing my H/R sport springs and KONI setup.

[Aundrealti]

Probably because they are definitely not rated for a 3800 lbs car. Soft is because they cannot handle the cars weight especially up front. All those solowerks are advertised for the MK TT platform , much lighter smaller cars. You will probably blow these up fairly rapidly.
Look at the new generation of ST's, those are one's I'm thinking about.

ill research and go with just springs the next go around.. they are also a pain to adjust.. the rears a nightmare.. the fronts not so bad.. ill leave them where they are.. I have around 400 miles on them.. ill just go with springs for the correct drop next time..
as even though these are adjustable.. you need 2 ppl to adjust the rears because the top spins when your trying to adjust them and its ridiculously awkward.. even with a lift..

[moyenecorniche]

Be aware that you have to do both springs and shocks, if you fit lower springs to conventional shocks you'll return to the same issue. Your shocks will not be able to function and since they'll always be compressed they'll fail prematurely.
Just do it right once and for all. Many threads here on this subject of people wanting to lower without thinking of springs and shocks as a package that has to function as One.

[Slow4]

subject of people wanting to lower without thinking of springs and shocks as a package that has to function as One.

Sports springs + aftermarket shocks (KONI, Bilstien) is a simple and cheap way to lower your ride in one shot without the hustle/bustle of figuring out how low/high you want it; it's a straight determined drop. As with the damping, the KONI and Bilstiens offer the driver the ability to go extra firm to extra soft depending on what they want with a twist of the shock.

This was the original reason why **I** chose to go with H-R Sport Springs/KONI shocks combo. It allowed me to lower the Avant and get the ride comfort to near OEM right out of the box. However, I do not like the reverse rake effect sport springs represent AND if I want to adjust the firm/softness of my ride, I have to remove the shocks and fiddle.

If OP wants height adjustment PLUS damping adjustment, he will have to pay an arm/leg for the V3s and PSS9s

If OP wants height adjustment with set damping rate, the H/Rs, Vogtlands, etc

If OP wants instant height drop with damping adjustment, sports and springs ll

[Aundrealti]

Be aware that you have to do both springs and shocks, if you fit lower springs to conventional shocks you'll return to the same issue. Your shocks will not be able to function and since they'll always be compressed they'll fail prematurely.
Just do it right once and for all. Many threads here on this subject of people wanting to lower without thinking of springs and shocks as a package that has to function as One.

well I have coils on now... I threw the old shocks out.. and stored the stock springs.. I wouldn't have a choice but to get springs and shocks..

[Aundrealti]

Sports springs + aftermarket shocks (KONI, Bilstien) is a simple and cheap way to lower your ride in one shot without the hustle/bustle of figuring out how low/high you want it; it's a straight determined drop. As with the damping, the KONI and Bilstiens offer the driver the ability to go extra firm to extra soft depending on what they want with a twist of the shock.

This was the original reason why **I** chose to go with H-R Sport Springs/KONI shocks combo. It allowed me to lower the Avant and get the ride comfort to near OEM right out of the box. However, I do not like the reverse rake effect sport springs represent AND if I want to adjust the firm/softness of my ride, I have to remove the shocks and fiddle.

If OP wants height adjustment PLUS damping adjustment, he will have to pay an arm/leg for the V3s and PSS9s

If OP wants height adjustment with set damping rate, the H/Rs, Vogtlands, etc

If OP wants instant height drop with damping adjustment, sports and springs ll

is there a pic of your ride? Im done with coilovers.. I like the stock ride with a lowered look.. that's it.

[Slow4]

is there a pic of your ride? Im done with coilovers.. I like the stock ride with a lowered look.. that's it.

[chris@fifteen52]

Technically ST does not have a B6/B7S4 application but I have sold many set to S4 owners and they have been very happy.

[Aundrealti]

See I like that height... my only issue with that is to get the front a tad lower to match the back..
just the look I like which I get with the coilovers.. needless to say.. ^^^^^^ really clean looking machine!

[Emrys]

Sports springs + aftermarket shocks (KONI, Bilstien) is a simple and cheap way to lower your ride in one shot without the hustle/bustle of figuring out how low/high you want it; it's a straight determined drop. As with the damping, the KONI and Bilstiens offer the driver the ability to go extra firm to extra soft depending on what they want with a twist of the shock.

This was the original reason why **I** chose to go with H-R Sport Springs/KONI shocks combo. It allowed me to lower the Avant and get the ride comfort to near OEM right out of the box. However, I do not like the reverse rake effect sport springs represent AND if I want to adjust the firm/softness of my ride, I have to remove the shocks and fiddle.

How bad is the reverse rake - I can't quite tell from the pictures. It looks like the drop in the front with the H&R sport springs is 1.2 vs 1 in the back so I was assuming that it would compensate for the stock reverse rake? I had to replace my front struts last fall and put on Bilsteins with the intention of finishing the conversion and putting on lowering springs or coils this spring. Your note is giving me pause since the OEM reverse rake is awful.

[Slow4]

How bad is the reverse rake - I can't quite tell from the pictures. It looks like the drop in the front with the H&R sport springs is 1.2 vs 1 in the back so I was assuming that it would compensate for the stock reverse rake? I had to replace my front struts last fall and put on Bilsteins with the intention of finishing the conversion and putting on lowering springs or coils this spring. Your note is giving me pause since the OEM reverse rake is awful.

Better look?

I think the front drops 1.2 and the rear drops 1.6. Sadly, the KONI shocks are too big for B5 perches so no evening out the reverse rake.

[Aundrealti]

Better look?

I think the front drops 1.2 and the rear drops 1.6. Sadly, the KONI shocks are too big for B5 perches so no evening out the reverse rake.

guys whats the reverse rake?

[Mr.Wrong]

guys whats the reverse rake?

When rear is lower than the front.

[Aundrealti]

When rear is lower than the front.

thanks... figured something like that... but better sure than unsure

[AvantinUSP]

ill research and go with just springs the next go around.. they are also a pain to adjust.. the rears a nightmare.. the fronts not so bad.. ill leave them where they are.. I have around 400 miles on them.. ill just go with springs for the correct drop next time..
as even though these are adjustable.. you need 2 ppl to adjust the rears because the top spins when your trying to adjust them and its ridiculously awkward.. even with a lift..

the rears are pretty easy if you drop the sub-frame and release the shock...3 bolts. I can adjust a side in 15min. Yes it's a real pain in the butt if you try to adjust them as is.

you could also look into getting stiffer springs to replace the ones on your coilovers. Hyperco or Swift.

[FastEddie]

KW V3s
PSS9s
H/R Perf - middle of line
Vogt GTs


Basics, from good to best; pss9 and V3s offer damping

There are a few others out there that I can't remember off to my head; I was looking into replacing my H/R sport springs and KONI setup.

Post is the truth!

[Emrys]

Better look?

I think the front drops 1.2 and the rear drops 1.6. Sadly, the KONI shocks are too big for B5 perches so no evening out the reverse rake.

Thanks - that helps. I had b5 perch plates before I changed the front struts w/o realizing that the Bilsteins wouldn't work with them. Thus the current dilemma.

[4point2]

hmm that's not encouraging. I was thinking about fitting these solowerks to my avant as soon as they're back in stock. now I'm doubting my though process

[Slow4]

Thanks - that helps. I had b5 perch plates before I changed the front struts w/o realizing that the Bilsteins wouldn't work with them. Thus the current dilemma.

I think someone DID get the B5 perches to work on aftermarket shocks...I can't remember his name at the moment but he owns a Cactus Green b6 S4 Avant (or something to that affect).

Psomethingsomething was the screen name. PS3? PSU? PSIloveYou?

[eurocollective]

Is it me.. but I installed the solo-werks coilovers on my b6 s4.. and they ride softer than the stock springs? and I have no wheel gap(on purpose, but figured this would stiffen them up a bit).. I mean I know they were a little cheaper and all but.. I take a corner "hardish" and I dive right in..

We have sold quite a few of the S4 kits, and your experience is quite opposite of our other customers.

I have a few questions for you to see if I can help diagnose what is going on with your suspension:

1. What part number is the Solo Werks kit you have installed on the car, and when was it purchased?

2. How long have you had them installed?

3. When they were installed did the installer follow the installation instructions and perform the priming procedure?

4. What is your current Fender to Wheel center measurement (as shown in the image below)

Probably because they are definitely not rated for a 3800 lbs car. Soft is because they cannot handle the cars weight especially up front. All those solowerks are advertised for the MK TT platform , much lighter smaller cars. You will probably blow these up fairly rapidly.

The Solo's are made for each application individually, with the specific component design, spring rate and valving setup for each platform / vehicle.

The kits for the B6 / B7 S4's use the same fitment as the standard A4 (shock housings etc..) but have heavier spring rates (approximately 780lbs front springs) for the increased weight of the S4 front vs the standard A4 of approximately 670lbs.

I look forward to getting the info back from Aundrealti to diagnose his suspension

Thanks,
Glen @ EuroCollective

[moyenecorniche]

OK Euro collective. Your response is definitely on the circle the wagons defensive.

This being your initial response isn't really what I would want to read as a potential customer.
" We have sold quite a few of the S4 kits, and your experience is quite opposite of our other customers. " Really... ??
The inference that you ( the customer ) must be wrong and everyone else is quite happy just doesn't read very well. I certainly would not respond in that manner to one of my clients when (1) They were disappointed with the installed product (2) needed credible informational feedback as to what and why something is not equal to expectations.

#1 response would have sufficed, since the OP didn't state which set of these CO's he installed.

Looking thru your website is a bit confusing concerning these shocks. B6/B7 S4 is not from 2001-2008, it would be informative to know who exactly engineered this model line of shocks, just stating " Engineers in Germany and America .... " just gives a marketing spin, nothing useful as far as specs or more importantly design credibility.

Being a capable performance vehicle, one would expect any S4 rated Coilovers to be at least a step up from OEM suspension. The ride in the S4 isn't luxury smooth, nor should it be but if the OP is describing a floating and diving in aspect in cornering, then obviously the damping on these CO's is amiss.
If so then this " The kits for the B6 / B7 S4's use the same fitment as the standard A4 (shock housings etc..) but have heavier spring rates (approximately 780lbs front springs) for the increased weight of the S4 front vs the standard A4 of approximately 670lbs. " Just doesn't add up. The B6/B7 S4 is 3800lbs which divides to 950lbs per corner. A spring rating of 780lbs is well below 950lbs, add a driver ( 1000lbs per wheel ) and perhaps additionally passengers, there is no way these CO's spring rates are going to perform as expected under such loads.

It seems apparent that this CO product doesn't quite meet expectations. At the very least not for the S4.

[eurocollective]

Hello moyenecorniche, I appreciate your response.

While my intention was not to "circle the wagons" but I can understand how it could be taken that way.

The customer feedback we have received on this kit has been consistently on the stiffer than stock side, therefore Aundrealti's experience with the kit on his S4 would indicate there may be an issue with the kit or the installation. The questions I posed after my statement focused on the kit, not the customer. If Aundrealti or anyone else read into my statement that I was accusing the customer of being wrong, I personally apologize for that.

I believe that once we receive the information to the questions I have posted, we should be able to get his suspension performing as it was engineered to do, taking care of the diving he is experiencing.

Glen @ EuroCollective

[eurocollective]

moyenecorniche,

When a suspension is developed, there are a few key variables that determine the range of spring rates that are needed to be used on that platform.

• Overall Vehicle Weight
• Corner Weight & F/R weight distribution
• Suspension Motion Ratio & Leverage Factor

After these raw numbers are calculated into base numbers that will in turn hold up the vehicle at a certain height, then the engineer can start to influence the handling characteristic by adjusting the rates of the springs and coupling them with the appropriate forces in the dampers and sway bars.

For example, here is a basic example using the S4 Sedan information to calculate the base spring rate.

Referring to page 2 of the 2004 Audi S4 Sedan tech specs that I found on Audiworld it is showing the Curb Weight of the Automatic Sedan at 3925 lbs, and a Front to Rear distribution of 53/47.

Using the basic calculator that Hyperco springs posts on their website: http://www.hypercoils.com/spring-calculator

I was able to put together this approximate calculation with the PDF data and spare parts I had at the shop (front coilover & lower control arm):

Front Corner Weight: 1040 lbs (53 % of 3925 = 2080.25, half of that for one wheel= 1040.125)
Unsprung Weight: 80lbs
Dimension A: 11”
Dimension B: 15”
Spring Angle: 75 degrees
Shock Ride Height : 2.85”



From this information Hyperco recommends a 475.6 lbs/inch spring, with an effective wheel rate of 238.63 lbs/inch.

Here is a quick list of standard A4 coilovers (non S4) and their spring rates that are posted here on Audizine:
spring rates on coilovers?

The average on the standard car seems to hover between 450 and 580 mark front, with the higher rates on the STaSIS Track sport ranging between 600-800 (optionally).

Even if you added another 1000 lbs to the standard weight of the car in this calculator (factored out to a single front corner at 1305lbs), they would still only recommend a 606.80 lbs rate.
You can see by this basic calculation of what would be required to hold up the vehicle vs what the suspension companies are using that they have used the rate to control undesirable performance characteristics of this platform.

Glen @ EuroCollective

[blai76]

There is a lot more that goes into determining spring rates than dividing your car's weight by four, obviously :)

edit: spelling > me

[pwest15]

moyenecorniche,

When a suspension is developed, there are a few key variables that determine the range of spring rates that are needed to be used on that platform.

• Overall Vehicle Weight
• Corner Weight & F/R weight distribution
• Suspension Motion Ratio & Leverage Factor

After these raw numbers are calculated into base numbers that will in turn hold up the vehicle at a certain height, then the engineer can start to influence the handling characteristic by adjusting the rates of the springs and coupling them with the appropriate forces in the dampers and sway bars.

For example, here is a basic example using the S4 Sedan information to calculate the base spring rate.

Referring to page 2 of the 2004 Audi S4 Sedan tech specs that I found on Audiworld it is showing the Curb Weight of the Automatic Sedan at 3925 lbs, and a Front to Rear distribution of 53/47.

Using the basic calculator that Hyperco springs posts on their website: http://www.hypercoils.com/spring-calculator

I was able to put together this approximate calculation with the PDF data and spare parts I had at the shop (front coilover & lower control arm):

Front Corner Weight: 1040 lbs (53 % of 3925 = 2080.25, half of that for one wheel= 1040.125)
Unsprung Weight: 80lbs
Dimension A: 11”
Dimension B: 15”
Spring Angle: 75 degrees
Shock Ride Height : 2.85”



From this information Hyperco recommends a 475.6 lbs/inch spring, with an effective wheel rate of 238.63 lbs/inch.

Here is a quick list of standard A4 coilovers (non S4) and their spring rates that are posted here on Audizine:
spring rates on coilovers?

The average on the standard car seems to hover between 450 and 580 mark front, with the higher rates on the STaSIS Track sport ranging between 600-800 (optionally).

Even if you added another 1000 lbs to the standard weight of the car in this calculator (factored out to a single front corner at 1305lbs), they would still only recommend a 606.80 lbs rate.
You can see by this basic calculation of what would be required to hold up the vehicle vs what the suspension companies are using that they have used the rate to control undesirable performance characteristics of this platform.

Glen @ EuroCollective

This is exactly the kind of response that would make me confident in a supplier/developer

[SpoolBus]

I paid $179 shipped for brand new FK HighSport coilovers about 2 years ago...they have been absolutely perfect..continue discussion...

[4point2]

Thanks for the insight Glen. I look forward to seeing what is causing this particular install issues.
Quick side note on the spring rating. They're measured in pounds per inch. I.e. that's how many pounds are required to compress the spring by one inch. More weight on a spring means it compresses more. Many systems have non linear spring rates or even helper springs to allow for initial take up or bottom end fine tuning

[4.2 prototype]

I actually dislike the stock suspension on the B7 S4 we have, My RS6 is on H&R coilovers and the ride is actually fairly decent for a daily, but that car is heavy.... I'd like to get the B7 less "jarring" or less stiff than it is stock... if anyone has felt the same way please let me know what route you went with for a daily driver (wifes ride)

I was just going to put the H&R's on hers too but not sure it will have the same effect as my car.

tia

[moyenecorniche]

Thanks Glen, I do understand that there is much more to spring rates than just a simple division, but all calculations aside, it would seem to me that the coil overs number you posted (780lbs ) is still well below the range for the S4 sedan. As far as the S4 is concerned it cannot be coupe or cabriolet since even if the latter ( cabriolet ) that is actually a heavier S4 than our 4 door sedans due to the required structural reinforcements.
So that puts the S4 in the range of sedan 3000-5000 lbs and the corner weight of 850-1250 lbs.

A spring rated at 780 lbs would still be inadequate with our S4's in static mode, let alone while in motion and resisting ever increasing centripetal forces while cornering. A 1000 lbs in motion in a process of directional change is actually a weight of 1000lbs multiplied by many factors.
A simple way to look at it in human terms is an average 200Lb ski racer will exert forces of 300-500lbs when pressuring the ski and changing direction around a pole. Same principle with a runner or football player.

The range of 850 to 1250 lb that would be applicable for the S4 is between those two numbers.
So the question remains, which coil overs did the OP purchase and were they a set that is applicable to the S4.
If the car is floating and diving in cornering than it sounds like those CO's were not the correct ones for the car.
As far as installation, we don't know either who installed them, but installing CO's is not rocket science. Any competent shop can do this without problems and most owners of the S4 here wrench their own cars.
But since we don't have the two important questions answered until OP responds.

[Aundrealti]

We have sold quite a few of the S4 kits, and your experience is quite opposite of our other customers.

I have a few questions for you to see if I can help diagnose what is going on with your suspension:

1. What part number is the Solo Werks kit you have installed on the car, and when was it purchased?

2. How long have you had them installed?

3. When they were installed did the installer follow the installation instructions and perform the priming procedure?

4. What is your current Fender to Wheel center measurement (as shown in the image below)







The Solo's are made for each application individually, with the specific component design, spring rate and valving setup for each platform / vehicle.

The kits for the B6 / B7 S4's use the same fitment as the standard A4 (shock housings etc..) but have heavier spring rates (approximately 780lbs front springs) for the increased weight of the S4 front vs the standard A4 of approximately 670lbs.

I look forward to getting the info back from Aundrealti to diagnose his suspension

Thanks,
Glen @ EuroCollective

Hello Glen,

I did not purchase them from euro-collective.. I don't know if you guys are the maker.. However I purchased them off ebay.. from company called blowoutautoparts..
I use ebay a lot and I also have a credit card with pay-pal which makes my purchases easier and insured.. They had them for the same price as anywhere else..$500+SH.. and was advertised as >>

Solo-Werks S1 Coilovers - Audi S4 / RS4 - 8E B6/B7 Quattro Sedan - '04-'08
( 221522196298 )

above is my invoice number off the posting..

I bought the suspension on Nov.7 2014... and installed them in Jan. 2015 I bought the car Nov1.2014... It was in the shop a couple months..
which brings me to the next question... the same shop that did the timing components installed the suspension.. I took the car back and personally adjusted them which is why I stated the adjustment on the rear was a nightmare..

I do not know if they followed the correct procedure.. I myself read the install instructions.. and gave it to them.. I don know if they did or not

As for the adjustment the fenders are sitting right above the 19 inch wheels,, no space to place any finger on top of the tire.. <<< THIS I will measure and give you a more correct answer on Monday 16th (tomorrow)


Assuming they didn't follow the procedure.. will this cause the softness? The coil over ride comfortable.. don't get me wrong.. but are way softer than my STOCK suspension...
>>>>>If it helps I also replaced every piece of control arm bits when I did the coilovers... so I have a whole new front end..

[4point2]

Thanks Glen, I do understand that there is much more to spring rates than just a simple division, but all calculations aside, it would seem to me that the coil overs number you posted (780lbs ) is still well below the range for the S4 sedan.

to be fair to the OP and the manufacturer, you can't start a reply with "i understand that it takes more than simple division" and then continue to use simple division alone to back up your point. Spring setup is a mostly mathematical thing so suppliers really can't put "all calcs aside". there is a reason why engineers have to go to school afterall.

just being cheeky, no offense or thread derail intended BTW

[moyenecorniche]

to be fair to the OP and the manufacturer, you can't start a reply with "i understand that it takes more than simple division" and then continue to use simple division alone to back up your point. Spring setup is a mostly mathematical thing so suppliers really can't put "all calcs aside". there is a reason why engineers have to go to school afterall.

just being cheeky, no offense or thread derail intended BTW

As suggested by Glen's post I used Hyperco's range of corner weight to state that a spring rate of 780lbs is too low for the B6 S4. between 850-1250 is correct.
There was no reason to post all the calculations and needlessly lengthen the thread when the relevant info. is there on Hyperco's site.
The initial appropriate weight range is simple, it's the starting point.

[moyenecorniche]

To the OP. If the install shop is reputable and routinely works on VAG's then they shouldn't have had any problem with the install.
I still think that the set of CO's you had installed are not adequate for the weight and performance requirements of the B6 S4.

On the other hand, you get what you pay for, when it comes to suspension and motor components, cheaply acquired is not always better. There are many examples of this on multiple threads here on A-zine.. I don't like spending a lot of money either, but quality components are expensive for german luxury performance cars.

[Aundrealti]

To the OP. If the install shop is reputable and routinely works on VAG's then they shouldn't have had any problem with the install.
I still think that the set of CO's you had installed are not adequate for the weight and performance requirements of the B6 S4.

On the other hand, you get what you pay for, when it comes to suspension and motor components, cheaply acquired is not always better. There are many examples of this on multiple threads here on A-zine.. I don't like spending a lot of money either, but quality components are expensive for german luxury performance cars.

I hear you.. I did some research and they seemed fine.. Like said in other posts one guy bought cheaper ones and they worked fine.. I had vogtlands on my ct v and dint like them either.. anyways lesson learned..
I bought these coilovers and then registered on audizine afterwards.. I simply did it backwards and should have registered and did my research first..
As said.. lesson learned..

[moyenecorniche]

Look in the classifieds, there's often guy's going to air and selling their KW's or Bilstein's.

[Aundrealti]

Look in the classifieds, there's often guy's going to air and selling their KW's or Bilstein's.

Ill rather go new cheap on suspension than used..
they are only a couple months old.. ill keep them for now and work on some other issues.. like wheels.. and hopefully ill blow them out later on and just buy new ones.. different brand of course.

[Aundrealti]

Look in the classifieds, there's often guy's going to air and selling their KW's or Bilstein's.

Appreciate your insight btw.. reall good info.. learned a bunch on the numbers!