Engine break in oil!

[GrapeBandit]

Well it's been quite a few years(almost 10) since I built an engine. For the life of me I can't remember what oil I used for break in period and for how long before I changed it I do know it was non-synthetic, and probably a 30 grade.

What are you guys using for break in oil and at how many miles did you change it out? non-synthetic 30wt in a non-detergent for 3,500-5,000 miles sound about right?

[redline380]

500 miles on sae30 non-detergent.

[Seerlah]

I was going to use Amsoil break in oil, but ruined it with fuel in the sump from bent valves I did not know what there (sucked). Total waste.

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produc...-oil-(sae-30)/

That is what I planned on using. Didn't want to dish out more money on more after replacement head swapped in (hence, the extra head I have to build), so went with this.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/luc-10631-1

There is also the Lucas Zinc additive, if you wanted to go that route with standard non-detergent SAE30. Might be cheapest route, other than straight non-detergent SAE30.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/luc-10063-1

Some people think Lucas stuff is trash but there is at least someone for every product that exists who thinks it's trash, so meh. Decide for yourself.

First use sacrificial non-detergent SAE30 with cheap fram filter. This is just for initial startup, getting her up to temp idling, then dumping it and trashing filter (this is when you inspect for leaks, and such). Now use the break in oil you want to use. Go for a spin and beat the crap out of your car with a lot of mixed driving and engine braking (did mine with 15psi on a GT2871R). Do that for about 20 minutes. Dump this oil and oil filter again. Now, you place what you want in there for your 500 mile break in.

Just thought about it now, and I think is what I will be doing when I do a stroker (yes, I'll be in the club later).

-Pick up Lucas break in addative
-SAE30 non-detergent with cheap fram filters for initial warm up and 20 minute break in (two different oil changes)
-Amsoil SAE30 break in oil for first 500 miles with OEM Mann filter.

Yeah, that would be my personal recipe for next time.

[GrapeBandit]

3 oil changes and 3 filters in one day, bit of an overkill id say..lol.

whatever I used last time, I did one break in period with non-synthetic oil, than always used mobil 15-50 afterwards.. that was on a gt35r stroker build and all I can say is that when I disassembled the engine after 35,000 miles all the bewrings looked brand new. as a matter of fact, when I sold the pauter rods, I left the besrings in it. when the guy got them, he said thanks for the new bearings. those words came from a guy who builds/built plenty of high hp race engines himself.

[Seerlah]

Unless you want to have those metal shavings floating around in your engine for 500 miles, I suggest you do it. The two prior changes are really just a prep for the 500 mile break in. That is why those use the cheap oil and filter vs the 500 mile one.

[GrapeBandit]

Unless you want to have those metal shavings floating around in your engine for 500 miles, I suggest you do it. The two prior changes are really just a prep for the 500 mile break in. That is why those use the cheap oil and filter vs the 500 mile one.

yea, maybe I just got lucky last time lol

[Seerlah]

Not lucky, but simply the filter doing it's job. Does not account for the stuff that will stay in the sump, though. Not to mention being drawn into your pump or clogging your pick up tube. I picked my SAE 30 oil from Walmart. Bottom of the barrel cheap stuff. Don't even recall the brand name.

[Rodgman15]

We use Brad Penn break in oil in our shop, good price and does the job right every time.

[Seerlah]

That is also what IE uses. I'm an Amsoil fan, myself.

[GrapeBandit]

so buy (2) 5qt jugs of Lucas break-in oil, (5) qts of Amsoil break-in oil, (2) cheapo fram filters, and big mann filters.

a) use lucas on initial startup with fram. let idle and bring up to operating temps. drain oil/remove fram.
b) install new fram, install lucas again, and drive for 20mins or so while getting on/off the engine. drain oil/remove fram again.
c) install big mann filter and Amsoil break-in oil. Use this for 500 miles, drain oil/remove filter.
d) install another big mann and oil of my choice.

sound right? lol

[redline380]

now is a good time to grab a magnetic oil plug too. I caught some fairly good sized pieces with mine on initial run in.

[GrapeBandit]

now is a good time to grab a magnetic oil plug too. I caught some fairly good sized pieces with mine on initial run in.

good call with everything going on, it totally slipped my mind

[Seerlah]

Yep. As dramatic as it sounds, it is like an anal preventative thing. But you could also try out the Lucas break in additive with the SAE 30 if it is more cost effective (route I think I will tinker with next time around). Then real break in oil of your choice for the 500 miles (I'm an Amsoil fan and why I recommended it).

now is a good time to grab a magnetic oil plug too. I caught some fairly good sized pieces with mine on initial run in.

Almost a must. Been running one for years, even before my build.

[redline380]

Honestly, for break in oil I would just run sae 30 non detergent with some additive in it. cheaper than actual break in oil

[rudy543us]

Grape Bandit,

Sounds like a good plane. Did you build this engine stock or is it enhanced?

[GrapeBandit]

Honestly, for break in oil I would just run sae 30 non detergent with some additive in it. cheaper than actual break in oil

but would you change it 3 times in one day([1]an initial startup/idle to operating temps, [2]a 20 minute drive, [3]and the 500 mile break-in period)?

Grape Bandit,

Sounds like a good plane. Did you build this engine stock or is it enhanced?

2L stroker with forged internals
20/20 Build thread

[redline380]

but would you change it 3 times in one day([1]an initial startup/idle to operating temps, [2]a 20 minute drive, [3]and the 500 mile break-in period)?

No, I do not. I ran mine for 500 miles and switched to synthetic. I could see running in with non detergent first to clear out off the shit like metal flakes and assembly lube, then going to regular oil for a few hundred, than going synthetic. Three times in one day is a bit much in my opinion.

[Seerlah]

It's really up to you guys. I ventured into the B6 section and got their advice on it first, and like 90% of them all did it this way so I went with it. Big thing is the piston ring break in, and that happens on like the first 20 minutes of driving. And you want the extra zinc for this. So, warm up to get the initial scraps out. Second to go break in piston rings for 20 minutes. Then 500 miles of regular driving with break in oil. Some did it all with SAE 30, but still 3 interval changes. I decided to use the break in motor oil for the extra zinc.

[GrapeBandit]

The temptation to fire up a new vehicle in the garage just to "hear"
the new engine run can be very strong.

This is the worst thing for a new engine, in fact, my advice is:
don't even start it up until you're ready to warm it up for the first ride.

The reason is that brand-new rings don't seat all the way around the 360 degrees of their circumference. The gas pressure from hard acceleration forces the rings to contact the cylinder around their entire circumference, which is the only way the rings can properly wear into the exact shape of the cylinder to seal the combustion pressure.

Now, imagine if the engine is run in the garage. There is no load on the engine, so the rings are just going up and down "along for the ride". Only a small portion of their surface is actually contacting the cylinder wall. The ring area that does contact the cylinder wears down the roughness of the honing pattern on the cylinder walls. Once the roughness of the cylinder is gone, the rings stop wearing into the cylinder. If this happens before the entire ring has worn into the cylinder and sealed, you will have a slow engine no matter how hard it gets ridden after that point.

The difference between what happens in an engine running in the garage, versus one being ridden is a hard concept to put into written words, so if I may use the sounds that we all can relate to: it's the difference between "zing-zing-zing" and "bwaaaaaaaaaAAAAAA"

During "zing-zing-zing" the rings don't get loaded for more than a split second, whereas during "bwaaaaaAAAAAA", the engine is in 100% ring sealing mode.

Change Your Oil Right Away !!
The best thing you can do for your engine is to change your oil and filter after the first 20 miles. Most of the wearing in process happens immediately, creating a lot of metal in the oil. Plus, the amount of leftover machining chips and other crud left behind in the manufacturing process is simply amazing !! You want to flush that stuff out before it gets recycled and embedded in the transmission gears, and oil pump etc...

Yes i know this quote if from a moto tuner, but piston rings are piston rings regardless if in a street bike or a car. i wonder how much shavings there would actually be and if it would hurt the engine to go for a 20 minute/20mile ride after reaching operating temps on the initial startup.

On the Street:
Warm the engine up completely:
Because of the wind resistance, you don't need to use higher gears like you would on a dyno machine. The main thing is to load the engine by opening the throttle hard in 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear.

Realistically, you won't be able to do full throttle runs even in 2nd gear on most bikes without exceeding 65 mph / 104 kph. The best method is to alternate between short bursts of hard acceleration and deceleration. You don't have to go over 65 mph / 104 kph to properly load the rings. Also, make sure that you're not being followed by another bike or car when you decelerate, most drivers won't expect that you'll suddenly slow down, and we don't want
anyone to get hit from behind !!

The biggest problem with breaking your engine in on the street (besides police) is if you ride the bike on the freeway (too little throttle = not enough pressure on the rings) or if you get stuck in slow city traffic. For the first 200 miles or so, get out into the country where you can vary the speed more
and run it through the gears !

Remember that both hard acceleration and hard engine braking (deceleration) are equally important during the break in process.

[Seerlah]

^You need to understand that those are not turbo applications. Main reason why the initial warm up won't hurt much. It is the same thing as letting it get to temps, draining oil, filling back up, starting her back up, letting fluids get back up to temps (hot block will make this quick), then go for the real break in. You want decent boost. With that boost, the piston rings will be pressed against the cylinder wall more than an NA motor. That is the break in you really want, yet people argue about not boosting and grandma driving it for break in. Bed those rings in before the glaze won't allow it. Like I said, I did mine with 15psi boost on a GT2871R.

[GrapeBandit]

^You need to understand that those are not turbo applications. Main reason why the initial warm up won't hurt much. It is the same thing as letting it get to temps, draining oil, filling back up, starting her back up, letting fluids get back up to temps (hot block will make this quick), then go for the real break in. You want decent boost. With that boost, the piston rings will be pressed against the cylinder wall more than an NA motor. That is the break in you really want, yet people argue about not boosting and grandma driving it for break in. Bead those rings in before the glaze won't allow it. Like I said, I did mine with 15psi boost on a GT2871R.

yea, you are right. no sense in cheaping out on the extra oil change after the initial startup reaches normal operating temps. trying to save $25 or so and 20 minutes of my time isnt worth the risk of ruining my engine after all the money i just dropped into this thing.

[Seerlah]

Not sure if I'm right, but that is what my opinion is highly swayed to from reading articles along with posts of what most people on this forum board do. I tend to go my own route on things, but I'm not the type to go against the grain on something like this. It is the very few who oppose this technique that have their reasoning of following manufacturer new car break in procedure. But really that is simply them covering their a$$es. Who in their right mind (as a new car salesman) would tell you to take your brand new car off the lot and drive it for the next 20 minutes like it was a rental?

[GrapeBandit]

if I was a new car salesman id be honest and say "go beat the fuck out of your car while you still have a warranty!"

[GrapeBandit]

my machine shop guy who is also one hell of an engine builder, confirmed exactly what Seerlah said. I explained to him step by step about the 3 oil changes in the first day. he said absolutely right, he does that every time and thats the only way to do it he uses joe gibbs break-in oil

[Avant Nate]

Sort of related, if you installed a new clutch at the same time, how do you beat on the engine without killing your new clutch?

[S4NIK8]

Never understood people who use the 'cheap' oil filter during break in when you know there is going to be a lot of initial wear in metals in the oil. It's a time when you would want the best filtering you can get to remove it quickly, not the cheapest filter you can buy. You're going to change the oil 3 times (likely overkill) but want to save $15 on filters?

[redline380]

Sort of related, if you installed a new clutch at the same time, how do you beat on the engine without killing your new clutch?

Just don't slip the clutch a ton. Once it is locked up, go for it. Make sure it doesn't slip though

[Seerlah]

Fram. Bottom of the barrel but not really. That's what I used.

As for the clutch, I broke that in same time. But I have a ceramic disc that could take it.

[GrapeBandit]

Never understood people who use the 'cheap' oil filter during break in when you know there is going to be a lot of initial wear in metals in the oil. It's a time when you would want the best filtering you can get to remove it quickly, not the cheapest filter you can buy. You're going to change the oil 3 times (likely overkill) but want to save $15 on filters?

im going to use 3 BIG MANN FILTERS

Sort of related, if you installed a new clutch at the same time, how do you beat on the engine without killing your new clutch?

Just don't slip the clutch a ton. Once it is locked up, go for it. Make sure it doesn't slip though

this

Fram. Bottom of the barrel but not really. That's what I used.

pretty much lol

[Avant Nate]

im going to use 3 BIG MANN FILTERS

I use the big ones but i found this comparing the 930/21 vs 940/25:

1. Is bypass pressure valve spec identical? Per the 2004 Mann book:
- W930/21: 3 bar
- W940/25: 2.5 bar
Is the 0.5 bar difference critical? I don't know, but I do know that the W940/25 will be at lower oil pressure in bypass mode, meaning the oil will then get only partially filtered.

2. The W930/21 is a LongLife filter, the W940/25 isn't. Which one filters better? Which one flows better. See down below.

3. How much more oil goes in the W940/25? Only 6.4 oz!



A few weeks ago I asked MANN USA for specs, besides the length of the filter assembly, in regard to filter medium specs and bypass valve pressure settings of the 930/21 and the 940/25. Today I received a reply:

Please see the explanation below concerning our filter elements. Should you require more detailed information, please do not hesitate to contact Bruce Bounnakhom, Manager of Filter Development directly. Bruce can be reached at 269-329-7286.

These are oil filters

W940/25: efficiency (ISO 4548-12) 50% at 18 micron (flow rate of 36 l/m); capacity =29 g

W930/21: efficiency (ISO 4548-12) 50% at 14 micron (flow rate of 40 l/m); capacity =25 g no information in our database on bypass opening pressure.
http://www.audiworld.com/forums/12v-...stead-2592144/

[GrapeBandit]

it seems the 930/21 would be better, no? i always used the 940/25 and never had issues. its been so long since i used the "audi recommended" filter that i dont even remember which filter it actually is lol

[redline380]

I personally use a wix 51515, meant for a (old) 5.0 mustang. Plan on switching this summer though

[juxsa]

IMO the way to do it is to get a cheap filter and a jug of Rotella T non syn. Warm up the engine for a 3-5 minutes then a quick drive to an area where you can do some hard pulls to get the rings to set in properly. Do the hard pulls then drive home. Let the car idle for a minute (so the non syn oil doesn't cook in the turbo). Change oil to Rotella T6 with a good filter. Boom!!! Proper engine break in complete

[S4NIK8]

Not sure how much of a difference 4 microns makes, its only 0.00016", so I would probably take the one with the larger filtering area. The "extra" 6.4~ ounces of oil is about 5% of the capacity of the sump so that's negligible.

For break in I would take the larger filter just for the increased surface area, but that's just me and this isn't my engine.

[Avant Nate]

The reason for the larger surface area and lower bypass pressure is sludge, because 1.8. I was looking because I used my last 930 on my allroad, and 940s are cheaper. I'm not suggesting using a 930, just found it interesting.

[GrapeBandit]

cheap filter. Warm up the engine for a 3-5 minutes then a quick drive to an area where you can do some hard pulls to get the rings to set in properly. Do the hard pulls then drive home. Let the car idle for a minute (so the non syn oil doesn't cook in the turbo). Change oil to Rotella T6 with a good filter. Boom!!! Proper engine break in complete

after my research and talking to my machinist(also a high performance engine builder for the last 30+ years) i do not agree with any of this. You do not want to drive the car to break it in with the initial startup oil, you want to get that oil out as soon as possible, its littered with metal shavings no matter how well you clean all the parts before the install, and you sure as hell dont want to use a cheap filter(as S4NIK8 also stated) because this is the time you would want the best filter to keep the metal shavings from cycling back into your engine. I also wouldnt be putting in synthetic oil until after the car has driven about 200-500 miles on the break-in oil which would be the 3rd of the 3 oil changes i plan on doing the first day.

Not sure how much of a difference 4 microns makes, its only 0.00016", so I would probably take the one with the larger filtering area. The "extra" 6.4~ ounces of oil is about 5% of the capacity of the sump so that's negligible.

For break in I would take the larger filter just for the increased surface area, but that's just me and this isn't my engine.

i am on the same page as you, i bought 3 BIG MANN filters(940)

The reason for the larger surface area and lower bypass pressure is sludge, because 1.8. I was looking because I used my last 930 on my allroad, and 940s are cheaper. I'm not suggesting using a 930, just found it interesting.

i would think having the higher bypass pressure of the 930 would be better. 2.5 bar is way too low, our cars spend most of their life above that, which means none of the oil is never getting filtered

[Seerlah]

IMO the way to do it is to get a cheap filter and a jug of Rotella T non syn. Warm up the engine for a 3-5 minutes then a quick drive to an area where you can do some hard pulls to get the rings to set in properly. Do the hard pulls then drive home. Let the car idle for a minute (so the non syn oil doesn't cook in the turbo). Change oil to Rotella T6 with a good filter. Boom!!! Proper engine break in complete

No. You want mixed driving with decent boost and lots of engine braking. Not to mention if the non synthetic oil you mentioned still has detergents. And the way you explained it is way too early to switch to full synthetic.

[S4NIK8]

i would think having the higher bypass pressure of the 930 would be better. 2.5 bar is way too low, our cars spend most of their life above that, which means none of the oil is never getting filtered

The bypass valve works based on pressure differential, not the pressure of the system. So it doesn't open until the difference between the inlet side and outlet side is 2.5 bar, not when the system is above 2.5 bar.

[GrapeBandit]

The bypass valve works based on pressure differential, not the pressure of the system. So it doesn't open until the difference between the inlet side and outlet side is 2.5 bar, not when the system is above 2.5 bar.

ohh, I didnt know that. well at least I can say I learned something new today