carbon deposit service

[gan911]

My dealer was promoting this to me during a routine 35k service. Worth it? Or is it some up sell thing? $250.
2011 s4 31k miles.

[svander]

What exactly does it entail according to them?

I'd say it could be worth it. Some cars have shown to definitely collect carbon deposits around the valves on these cars, but it also depends on how the car has been cared for and driven. If you're not the first owner, I'd say yes, just for peace of mind.

[Ryan_qttro]

35k seems kinda early, usually don't see major build up til 60k+

[gan911]

Described as some 3 stage cleaning....will find out more about it. Any Audi techs want to chime in? Looked for this service on the board every since I got the car. Haven't seen a thread on it in the last year or so...

[tanklee]

This is common on these cars. I've seen carbon buildup from 20,000mi to not one sign of buildup at 50,000mi. What would you like to know? I think it all depends on how you drive it. From the price of $250, i doubt it's the actually carbon cleaning where the supercharger and lower intake manifolds are taken off and the intake valves and ports are manually cleaned. Seems like one of those "fuel injection" cleaning products they are trying to sell you.

[gan911]

yea, sounded fishy at the price. i did some more reading on the a4 forum, apparently a 'deep' cleaning requires removing the manifold, soaking it, etc. I'll call and ask tomorrow and find out for everyone.

[u2nelson]

Wow I thought this was some sort of save the planet scheme. Much better after I figured it out. Love it.

[Midnight_Rider]

My buddy with 335 just did this at 100k. Change the oil pan, remove head, and flush fluid, and clean it. Walnut blasting is what I think he said.



I think dealer quoted him like $4k. Got it done at a shop for $2k.

I've never done this to my Evo, but apparently it's a thing for Audi and BMW's. I wonder why...



He also said, dealership just puts some fluid in there, like seafoam, and charge you $250. On our car, the SC and head needs to come out, so they can clean it properly, and I can't imagine this happening at 35k, for $250, which means an hour of work, which is not possible. Just don't understand it.

[budda]

If they say there going to use some sort of cleaning fluid through you intake or injectors, save your money.

Anything less than walnut blasting or other direct method of cleaning the valves, won't do anything

Chemical carbon service = wallet flush

[gan911]

supposedly the turbo charged and supercharged engines have less deposit than the regular direct inject ones due to the higher temps and more complete burn. not sure if its true....

[boomtime]

I've never done this to my Evo, but apparently it's a thing for Audi and BMW's. I wonder why...

Did your EVO have direct injection?
On an Audi we call it FSI: Fuel Stratified Injection.
Because the valves arent being soaked in fuel from the injectors this buildup occurs.
Its definitely a cash cow for the dealers...

[bpang1]

It's a problem for Direct Injected cars. Non-DI motors shoot the fuel into the same air-way that the air is going through...the fuel actually helps to clean off that sludge you are seeing in those pictures. Since a DI cars shoots the fuel straight into the combustion chamber, it isn't cleaning off the valves and the intake chamber.

Walnut blasting is what most places use to shoot that crud off.

[Ryan_qttro]

I have noticed the 3.0T's have less build up than 4.2's. The cleaning process is removing Supercharger and lower manifold with fuels rails. We use BG Product kit and let is soak on the valves for a while, then pick off the carbon deposits from the valve.

[chaos2984]

I have noticed the 3.0T's have less build up than 4.2's. The cleaning process is removing Supercharger and lower manifold with fuels rails. We use BG Product kit and let is soak on the valves for a while, then pick off the carbon deposits from the valve.

What do you do just turn the engine over to where the intake valves seal and do those cylinders then move to the others. Seems like not a big deal to do your self if your mechanically inclined

[skiptowncat]

Shooting meth pre-throttle body will stop this building up. Gunked up valves was a problem on the mazda direct injection engines

[chaos2984]

Shooting meth pre-throttle body will stop this building up. Gunked up valves was a problem on the mazda direct injection engines

So we all need Stage 2 plus meth injection to solve this problem. Humm what a good idea

[tins5]

I may be wrong, but I thought I received a letter from Audi saying that it would be covered under warranty or something...?

[Rdrcr]

What exactly does it entail according to them?

I'd say it could be worth it. Some cars have shown to definitely collect carbon deposits around the valves on these cars, but it also depends on how the car has been cared for and driven. If you're not the first owner, I'd say yes, just for peace of mind.

Agreed.

35k seems kinda early, usually don't see major build up til 60k+

I had build-up at 35K (2.0T). More than I ever thought possible.

Mike

[skiptowncat]

So we all need Stage 2 plus meth injection to solve this problem. Humm what a good idea

That's what I told the missus

[B8_Jim]

I may be wrong, but I thought I received a letter from Audi saying that it would be covered under warranty or something...?

That's for the secondary air injection system carbon buildup, not for the intake valves/system.

[Ryan_qttro]

What do you do just turn the engine over to where the intake valves seal and do those cylinders then move to the others. Seems like not a big deal to do your self if your mechanically inclined

Yea, once you get supercharger and lower fuel rails off. Just see how many cylinders have all intake valves closed. Start with those, clean all the closed ones. Then bump engine over (have the fuel line in a water bottle, to catch fuel feed by in tank fuel pump) until the other cylinders are closed on intake side.

[Ryan_qttro]

Agreed.



I had build-up at 35K (2.0T). More than I ever thought possible.

Mike

Yea the 2.0T seems to build up pretty bad quickly

[Ryan_qttro]

I've got the Super Charger off a 2010 S4 with 93k miles. Has not had Intake valve cleaning, hardly any build up on valves. Small amount on middle of valve but none around seat.

[drob23]

I've got the Super Charger off a 2010 S4 with 93k miles. Has not had Intake valve cleaning, hardly any build up on valves. Small amount on middle of valve but none around seat.

I believe the community belief is that Audi runs the 3.0T hotter than other engines, something on the order of 10 deg hotter. I believe measured via the oil temps, though that could be incorrect. Then other theories that the FI does a better job of preventing build up (which is questionable given the 2.0T problems).

There was someone on here a while ago saying that a major issue was the type of alloy being used in valve construction. Some kind of chemistry issue with coatings or something along these lines. Postulated that carbon deposits could be reduced by using a different coating. However, pretty much every OEM is going to shortly implement dual port/direct injection in their motors. Maybe for improved fuel econ, or maybe to eliminate this deposit issue...not really sure.

[chaos2984]

Yea, once you get supercharger and lower fuel rails off. Just see how many cylinders have all intake valves closed. Start with those, clean all the closed ones. Then bump engine over (have the fuel line in a water bottle, to catch fuel feed by in tank fuel pump) until the other cylinders are closed on intake side.

Nice. You just bump it over with the starter instead of turning it over by hand? Lazy bastard. Honestly I would probably do the same thing. What do you typically use to clean it. I use to work for mazda and we used this special cleaner to clean out the RX-8 carbon called "Zoom Power" it worked really well. I have a few cans lying around. I figured id just spray them and get down there with a tooth brush and clean away.

[CrownSeven]

I believe the community belief is that Audi runs the 3.0T hotter than other engines, something on the order of 10 deg hotter. I believe measured via the oil temps, though that could be incorrect. Then other theories that the FI does a better job of preventing build up (which is questionable given the 2.0T problems).

There was someone on here a while ago saying that a major issue was the type of alloy being used in valve construction. Some kind of chemistry issue with coatings or something along these lines. Postulated that carbon deposits could be reduced by using a different coating. However, pretty much every OEM is going to shortly implement dual port/direct injection in their motors. Maybe for improved fuel econ, or maybe to eliminate this deposit issue...not really sure.

Someone over on audiworld on the Q5 forums mentioned they were commissioned to perform a study on the issue by a manufacturer. He stated they found that the type of oil combined with certain types of alloys played a significant role in carbon build up. He also stated that using certain types of oil would help alleviate the issue but not get rid of it completely.

I've experienced this issue on our 3.2 Q5 - which was covered under warranty. They had to drop the entire subframe with the motor to clean it out. Do NOT want to have to pay for that on my own dime. Audi did extend the powertrain warranty to 10 years because of it.

I'll see if I can find the thread.

[DGVR6]

Yea, once you get supercharger and lower fuel rails off. Just see how many cylinders have all intake valves closed. Start with those, clean all the closed ones. Then bump engine over (have the fuel line in a water bottle, to catch fuel feed by in tank fuel pump) until the other cylinders are closed on intake side.

Wouldn't it be easier to remove the fuel pump fuse or just turn the crank?

[Ryan_qttro]

Not that much room to get to the crank, easiest way we've found is just to bump it over slowly.

[DGVR6]

Good to know.

[AudBoost]

Coming from a 335... do not waste your money on a chemical cleaning that dealer is going to try and sell you. The chemical cleaning they try to sell is essentially seam foam which will not do anything to a good amount of carbon build up. They only way to remove carbon is a manual cleaning (ie... chemical soak and wire brush scrub) or media blasting (ie... walnut shell blasting). Walnut shell blasting is very popular in the BMW scene and does an outstanding job.

[Crucible35]

I may be wrong, but for $250 that can't be a carbon cleaning of the valves....probably just the injectors. I had my valves cleaned when they did my piston and ring replacement on my A4.....as I recall they stated that to do a full carbon cleaning is would be around $1K for a 4 cyl.

[rufflez]

I may be wrong, but for $250 that can't be a carbon cleaning of the valves....probably just the injectors. I had my valves cleaned when they did my piston and ring replacement on my A4.....as I recall they stated that to do a full carbon cleaning is would be around $1K for a 4 cyl.

I'm going to do it soon on my A4. If its not too difficult I see a huge profit margin opportunity ;). From the how-to post... It seemed more time consuming than difficult. Scrub... Scrub... Wait... Scrub.

[EyeCentric]

This happened to me at 11k! It's not what you think on 3.0 it's build up in the secondary air system, and covered under warranty for 10 years 120k miles. A lot of misinfo here.

[tanklee]

This happened to me at 11k! It's not what you think on 3.0 it's build up in the secondary air system, and covered under warranty for 10 years 120k miles. A lot of misinfo here.

nope, i don't there there is mis info here. i believe OP was referring to the actual carbon buildup on the intake valves/ports. not the buildup on the secondary air ports. 3.0s do have carbon buildup issues as well as secondary port buildup.

[amz]

TSB #203158 is for excessive carbon build up (I just had this done.) If you worried about carbon build up, let it go until you qualify for the service or your warranty runs out. If you qualify for it, then you don't pay out of pocket. If you are out of warranty, there's a chance the dealership will goodwill it, you're not out of pocket. Or, take it to a local trusted euro shop and have them do the cleaning and you'll be much less out of pocket. Ultimately, be less out of pocket.

Best bet, if you're worried about it then take it to a euro shop (or even the dealership) and ask them to scope your intake for you.

[B8_Jim]

Best bet, if you're worried about it then take it to a euro shop (or even the dealership) and ask them to scope your intake for you.

How would you get the scope in to see the valves? Is the charge air pressure/temp sensor port large enough for scope access?

[amz]

How would you get the scope in to see the valves? Is the charge air pressure/temp sensor port large enough for scope access?

If your scope is small enough I think so? My dealership was scoping the injector when they made the call to do the carbon cleaning

[B8_Jim]

If your scope is small enough I think so? My dealership was scoping the injector when they made the call to do the carbon cleaning

So the charger was already off? The injectors are under the SC if I recall correctly... With the charger off you I think you can just look down the intake ports to the back side of the valves (with the possible exception of the intake flaps being in way).

Looking at the 3.0T self study guide it appears there is no path (at least no reasonable path for a scope) to the back sides of the valves without pulling the charger. Going through the spark plug with the valves open might give you some view, but you would need a scope with a right angle view most likely to see much. Darn - was wanting to do this to mine just to see... My cheap scope won't be able to turn or see the valves through the spark plug hole (ask me how I know...).

[Black S]

Someone over on audiworld on the Q5 forums mentioned they were commissioned to perform a study on the issue by a manufacturer. He stated they found that the type of oil combined with certain types of alloys played a significant role in carbon build up. He also stated that using certain types of oil would help alleviate the issue but not get rid of it completely.

I've experienced this issue on our 3.2 Q5 - which was covered under warranty. They had to drop the entire subframe with the motor to clean it out. Do NOT want to have to pay for that on my own dime. Audi did extend the powertrain warranty to 10 years because of it.

I'll see if I can find the thread.

Can you find out what oil is best?

[Ryan_qttro]

So the charger was already off? The injectors are under the SC if I recall correctly... With the charger off you I think you can just look down the intake ports to the back side of the valves (with the possible exception of the intake flaps being in way).

Looking at the 3.0T self study guide it appears there is no path (at least no reasonable path for a scope) to the back sides of the valves without pulling the charger. Going through the spark plug with the valves open might give you some view, but you would need a scope with a right angle view most likely to see much. Darn - was wanting to do this to mine just to see... My cheap scope won't be able to turn or see the valves through the spark plug hole (ask me how I know...).

Ya the only way you will really see the valves on a 3.0 is with Super Charger off, you may could scope on a 2.0T.