Bosch injectors too short?

[Meow]

What makes me think they aren't fully seated is the fact that I can push them down into my plenum about another 1/4 inch when they aren't clipped into my rails. Do they leak when I boost leak, no..But is it proper? No.

That does not sound very scientific...

If they do not leak, then they are seated fully.

[01audia4]

What we have been trying to tell you is it doesnt really matter.
If you think it would be better, run the hats. That simple

I'm not arguing--like I said, both my cars i've ran without hats.

That does not sound very scientific...

If they do not leak, then they are seated fully.

Sounds scientific to me..Moves a 1/4 inch down probably should stay 1/4 inch down.

[aysix]

I've installed countless EV14's. I never used hats.

[Meow]

Sounds scientific to me..Moves a 1/4 inch down probably should stay 1/4 inch down.

you sure you aren't destroying the oring, or rolling it up the injector, or pushing it through the taper? Are you looking with the manifold removed?

[zillarob]

Sounds like he has it in the bore fine, just concerned about it not being as deep as they are with the hats and spacers.

[Meow]

Sounds like he has it in the bore fine, just concerned about it not being as deep as they are with the hats and spacers.

im just questioning his justification of the phrase "fully seated"

[zillarob]

Think that ~1/4" deeper and bottomed out is what he means.

Im of the mind that it doesnt amount to a hill of beans.
Same for the people looking for the holy grail spray pattern and angle.
Its just not worth worrying about.

[Meow]

Think that ~1/4" deeper and bottomed out is what he means.

Im of the mind that it doesnt amount to a hill of beans.
Same for the people looking for the holy grail spray pattern and angle.
Its just not worth worrying about.

im gonna to take some pics/video of my injectors just because I can. I dont buy this 1/4" deeper crap.

[zillarob]

I dont know if it is quite 1/4", but that is in the neighborhood.

[WestfarmRacing]

Maybe this doesn't apply to your cars, but on my rs4, I ordered ev14 With same o-ring cc as oem (the short ones). The problem was in that case the groove for the Clip is about 3mm lower than oem injector, that resulted in the o-ring barely went down the taper in the manifold.
What I did was simply shaving down the bosses on the IM 3mm and it was all good.

Going to install these same short ones on an s4 this week, it has rs4 injectors now With 034 hats. Hope that will work out too..

[julex]

I already linked above but will repeat:

0280158117 and 0280158298 (most commonly used in our engines) ARE TOO SHORT, there is no question about it. You can do any of the following to ensure they seal well (sorted by cost):

1) FREE: grind IM posts by ~3/16" to 1/4", this will lower the fuel rail and shorten the distance between fuel rail and intake manifold injector hole.
2) $10: use stock O-rings which are fatter so that is seals a little better or but it still be no perfect
3) $70+: gets hats, spacers and new bolts because with hats the injector will now be too long.

And very important, clock these properly since their spray geometry requires proper injector orientation.

[vtraudt]

I already linked above but will repeat:

0280158117 and 0280158298 (most commonly used in our engines) ARE TOO SHORT, there is no question about it. You can do any of the following to ensure they seal well (sorted by cost):

1) FREE: grind IM posts by ~3/16" to 1/4", this will lower the fuel rail and shorten the distance between fuel rail and intake manifold injector hole.
2) $10: use stock O-rings which are fatter so that is seals a little better or but it still be no perfect
3) $70+: gets hats, spacers and new bolts because with hats the injector will now be too long.

And very important, clock these properly since their spray geometry requires proper injector orientation.

I have NOT heard of the clocking for EV14! I just 'clock' for convenient access to the connectors. If 'clocking' is in deed important (would like to read more about it) with EV14, what IS the proper clocking (photo showing where the connectors need to point for both heads).

[topquarkpc]

option 4) would be to add the fuel rail on top replacing the stock rail...
mine leaks time to time (once every 6 months?) under the hood...i don't know the reason for why it leaks... suspect location is obviously between the interface where injectors (mine are shorter ones i believe) meet either the IM hole on the bottom or the top where i'm using the hat that mount into the billet rail (both hats & rail by 034)...
Julex...can you go over the 'clocking' orientation for us? just wanna be reminded... i think it should be the 'stock' position but not 100% sure.

[01audia4]

im just questioning his justification of the phrase "fully seated"

Fully seated- my definition, as far down as I can push it; and yes the O-ring did not roll up the injector; it was in the proper place. A 1/4 inch was definitely a guess obviously not a bad one. See below.

Think that ~1/4" deeper and bottomed out is what he means.

Correct

I dont know if it is quite 1/4", but that is in the neighborhood.

Correct again.

I already linked above but will repeat:

0280158117 and 0280158298 (most commonly used in our engines) ARE TOO SHORT, there is no question about it. You can do any of the following to ensure they seal well (sorted by cost):

1) FREE: grind IM posts by ~3/16" to 1/4", this will lower the fuel rail and shorten the distance between fuel rail and intake manifold injector hole..

Thank you.

[julex]

option 4) would be to add the fuel rail on top replacing the stock rail...
mine leaks time to time (once every 6 months?) under the hood...i don't know the reason for why it leaks... suspect location is obviously between the interface where injectors (mine are shorter ones i believe) meet either the IM hole on the bottom or the top where i'm using the hat that mount into the billet rail (both hats & rail by 034)...
Julex...can you go over the 'clocking' orientation for us? just wanna be reminded... i think it should be the 'stock' position but not 100% sure.

OFC I am option 4) billet rail with proper height for Ev14 :)

Original umodified (multi-orifice) 117 and 298s' connectors must face towards the head/outside of car on each respective side of engine - because they have two cone spray with a bend.

If you have modified EV14, which is obvious when you look at its tip - there will be just one big hole - then orientation doesn't matter since they shoot straight with one narrow cone (worst injectors you can get for our engine).

0280158040 (what I run now) unmodified don't care either since these are multi-orifice injector but are single wide cone, no bend.

[01audia4]

OFC I am option 4) billet rail with proper height for Ev14 :)

Original umodified (multi-orifice) 117 and 298s' connectors must face towards the head/outside of car on each respective side of engine - because they have two cone spray with a bend.

If you have modified EV14, which is obvious when you look at its tip - there will be just one big hole - then orientation doesn't matter since they shoot straight with one narrow cone (worst injectors you can get for our engine).

0280158040 (what I run now) unmodified don't care either since these are multi-orifice injector but are single wide cone, no bend.

So you're saying my IDs are not as good as unmolested 550/750cc?

[julex]

So you're saying my IDs are not as good as unmolested 550/750cc?

Yup. The one you pictured sprays a single narrow cone that hits mainly only center intake valve. This leads to different concentration of fuel/air in mixture across valves... You'd probably not notice dramatic difference between these and unmolested ones, one area where you might do is quality of idle.

[01audia4]

Yup. The one you pictured sprays a single narrow cone that hits mainly only center intake valve. This leads to different concentration of fuel/air in mixture across valves... You'd probably not notice dramatic difference between these and unmolested ones, one area where you might do is quality of idle.

My idle is quite good, no blips or misfires stays right around 8-900. Where I notice a bit of hesitation is right between vacuum and boost(normal driving not getting on it). I have been trying to track this down, maybe because of the single spray? I plan on going E85 so maybe I should just sell these off and get regular 750cc anyway.

[julex]

My idle is quite good, no blips or misfires stays right around 8-900. Where I notice a bit of hesitation is right between vacuum and boost(normal driving not getting on it). I have been trying to track this down, maybe because of the single spray? I plan on going E85 so maybe I should just sell these off and get regular 750cc anyway.

That's probably some tuning issue, not injector.

Unmolested EV14 come in following flows @ 3bar : 550/620/970 which you multiply by ~1.18 for 4bar pressure.

This is 0280158040 970cc/1150cc (3/4bar flow) tip:



This is ~620cc 0280158298 injector from Ford GT, the best choice by far for our platform for anything up to RS6 style turbos:







298 is cheap as hell, something like $30 shipped for injector and so is 117, 040 is much more expensive but the only good choice if you need over 1000CC, at ~$80 shipped and it comes in "Short, extended tip" configuration so you need hats for it to bring it to normal length. But at least it has EV1 connector so our plugs go directly in, no need for adapters!

Re: Idle. Idle should be at 760rpm, if you idle is at 900, it means that it was artificially bumped up in tune to mitigate misfiring/stalling when lower (stock) idle was used.

[Meow]

If you have modified EV14, which is obvious when you look at its tip - there will be just one big hole - then orientation doesn't matter since they shoot straight with one narrow cone (worst injectors you can get for our engine).

But cheapest! Lol

[Meow]

Fully seated- my definition, as far down as I can push it; and yes the O-ring did not roll up the injector; it was in the proper place. A 1/4 inch was definitely a guess obviously not a bad one. See below.


Correct


Correct again.

Thank you.

I think what you are feeling is the difference in oring thickness.

The OEM o-rings are a few thousandths thicker and take up any space there could have been.

OEM Audi fuel injector o-ring on the left, Bosch O-ring on the right:

With the green orings, you can probably move about 1/8th an inch or 3/16ths inch and squish the oring a bit go get that 1/8th inch you are feeling. With the oem orings I don't think you would feel the same movement.


The difference in the injector sizes is about 1/2 an inch so it is certainly not an issue of too small of an injector, but possibly the wrong size orings.

Here is a picture with hats and the green oring installed:

(credit flyboy)

With injector hat and fuel rail spacer.

[hibiscusS4]

ya that green oring seems like garbage. when the rest of my fueling stuff comes in i will get pictures as well.
with my hats just injectors clips and oem orings

[mikay1814]

I already linked above but will repeat:

0280158117 and 0280158298 (most commonly used in our engines) ARE TOO SHORT, there is no question about it. You can do any of the following to ensure they seal well (sorted by cost):

1) FREE: grind IM posts by ~3/16" to 1/4", this will lower the fuel rail and shorten the distance between fuel rail and intake manifold injector hole.
2) $10: use stock O-rings which are fatter so that is seals a little better or but it still be no perfect
3) $70+: gets hats, spacers and new bolts because with hats the injector will now be too long.

And very important, clock these properly since their spray geometry requires proper injector orientation.

The tables in the link below kind of makes it seem like the 0280158117 and 0280158298 WILL fit. I'm guessing it's just outdated? or am I just looking at it wrong?
http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Fuel_injectors

Regardless, I ended up grinding my IM posts and using oem rings on my 0280158117s, because I was paranoid lol.

[Meow]

The tables in the link below kind of makes it seem like the 0280158117 and 0280158298 WILL fit. I'm guessing it's just outdated? or am I just looking at it wrong?
http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Fuel_injectors

Regardless, I ended up grinding my IM posts and using oem rings on my 0280158117s, because I was paranoid lol.

I think its an oring thickness issue... so I think they will fit with the right orings without grinding.

[julex]

The tables in the link below kind of makes it seem like the 0280158117 and 0280158298 WILL fit. I'm guessing it's just outdated? or am I just looking at it wrong?
http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Fuel_injectors

Regardless, I ended up grinding my IM posts and using oem rings on my 0280158117s, because I was paranoid lol.

It is inaccurate... that's all. I think the stock length is center of o-ring to center of o-ring while the one listed for ev14 is end to end or perhaps, as mentioned above, clip slot if lower on ev14 than on stock ones.

[WestfarmRacing]

It is inaccurate... that's all. I think the stock length is center of o-ring to center of o-ring while the one listed for ev14 is end to end or perhaps, as mentioned above, clip slot if lower on ev14 than on stock ones.

Jepp julex, I measured my 0 280 158 040 and they have the same cc o-ring to o-ring as stock rs4 but clip slot is located lower than oem. Tat's why I had to grind.
Don't know if it's the same with s4 length ones, but would think so.

[bobkatkat]

This question seems to pop up a few times. Hope fully this will help illustrate what is happening to the o-ring position depending on whether you use hats or or replace the green o-rings that come with the EV14's. I could not get mine to seal without the hats so I ended up installing them. I could have just changed the o-rings to a new set of the OEM ones or some after market larger ones. Shaving of the fuel rail mounting posts also pushes the o-ring a little deeper into the manifold or puts more pressure on an oversize o-ring up against the chamfer. Lots of people have had luck with just the o-rings and lots of people have had leaks. The reason I went with the hats was there were no people reporting leaks with hats. So here is an illustration (not to scale!!! but close) that shows the OEM compared to, no hats and with hats, and some photos to show the hats method.



Deep seating of injector with hats from top



From the bottom thanks to flyboy



Smarter people can comment on how moving the spray tips deeper into the intake by 8-10 mm with the hats or not effects anything.

Also Julex can you tell us to properly clock the injector do you have the harness connector pointing to the outside ??? 90 degrees??

[01audia4]

T

I knew I wasn't crazy.

[Meow]

I don't think that installing them like the one on the far right is the proper way.



Here is a quick video I made showing my ev14 injectors with OEM orings and stock manifold (no shaving) and no hats and using the factory style injector clips. You do not need hats, you do not need to press it down further into the manifold than the fuel rail does. While I bolt my fuel rail down it clamps down on the oring and seals good.


If you do not leak boost out of intake manifold past the injector oring seals then you do not need to add hats or shave your manifold at all. That is completely unnecessary. Pushing them past the taper and into the cylinder is risky. I would not want to chance my oring falling into my engine... Not worth the risk at all.


I would highly recommend AGAINST pushing them in like shown in bobkatkat's drawing.

Final note: GET OEM O-RINGS and it will seal perfect

I knew I wasn't crazy.

I don't think you are crazy, I just think you have too small of an oring and are installing them wrong.

[bobkatkat]

^ Both ways work! Bigger o-rings or hats. There is no possible way that the 0-rings can fall into the engine with the hats. So please don't panic people with that false scenario. The injectors stop when fully pressed into the manifold far short of the O-ring pushing in to far. The OEM injectors push past the Taper so it is fine to do it either way.

Also plenty of people have issues with OEM o-rings in colder climates leaking on colder days and have had to change to softer, slightly larger, better quality third party rings.

[airjawed]

Two points I need to clarify with your video:

1) Your injectors are not the correct orientation. You need to be 90 degrees from the fuel rail... connectors facing outwards.

2) Clips are mandatory even with OEM orings on the manifold side. I have OEM rings and the clip was not on correctly on one of my injectors... injector did slide down enough to cause massive fuel leak at fuel rail side.

So to summarize what should work and did work for me: OEM rings on manifold side, clips on fuel rail side, no other modifications, connectors facing outwards on both banks respectively. This is for the EV14 117's

[zillarob]

Awesome pic Bob!!



In my experience, the left pic is what I usually see with standard ev14s and a direct install.
Not a problem and how I usually install them.

The center is what you can end up with and need to look out for. The stock rail and injectors can be a sumbeach to get apart after 14yrs of heat. Ripping them apart with the prybar of mass destruction and tweaking the rail is what I think usually causes this. Mfg tolerance might also be a cause.
This one is a problem!

The right pic is obviously the best and what people should stick to if they have any doubts. ~75$ for hats is nothing if it puts your mind at ease.
Least chance of running into problem.

[Meow]

Two points I need to clarify with your video:

1) Your injectors are not the correct orientation. You need to be 90 degrees from the fuel rail... connectors facing outwards.

2) Clips are mandatory even with OEM orings on the manifold side. I have OEM rings and the clip was not on correctly on one of my injectors... injector did slide down enough to cause massive fuel leak at fuel rail side.

I felt the orientation I had them was good and I think most people agree the way I had them is correct and 90 degrees to the rail is incorrect.

Not everyone uses clips, I suggest using them and I agree they are mandatory, but people often use hats instead of clips and here is why:



Here I show the 1/8th inch drop that people are experience and the cause of this is the smaller orings. The oem black orings are 14.60mm OD and the green ones that come on aftermarket ev14 injectors are 14.30mm OD, which allows them to slide down into the manifold bore more. I think this is a bad idea and advise against using the green orings.

The right pic is obviously the best and what people should stick to if they have any doubts. ~75$ for hats is nothing if it puts your mind at ease.
Least chance of running into problem.

I would NOT call this "best" and I would only advise this if you really want to use the green orings. I would suggest using the oem orings and not buying hats.



Again this is 100% because of orings OD discrepancies between green and black ones.

[zillarob]

Let me clarify, "best" for those that are worried about a non-issue


As long as you are getting the boom sauce in the hole, the perfect install/orientation or spray pattern is prob not going to be a difference you can even feel or see on a dyno sheet.

Pretty sure these dudes know wtf they are doing, and they just spray that shit out in limbo. lol

[oppositelock]

That's because there's very little time for vaporization at 20,000 RPM.

Injector fully seated is the right way to do it.

[Meow]

Injector fully seated is the right way to do it.

With OEM O-Rings this "full seated" idea happens at the correct location, at the end of the taper. With the green o-rings this "fully seated" idea happens when the injectors insert into the manifold more than the oem injectors ever did and more than they were designed to.

So depending on which one you are talking about, I would agree the "fully seated is the right way to do it."

If you are using the green orings, shove them down in, if you are using the black orings, keep them at the factory height.

[Meow]

Green (too small): 14.3 mm



Black OEM O-Ring (correct size): 14.6 mm

[bobkatkat]

I am assuming that the factory position of the o-ring on the OEM injectors are pushed in past the the taper into the top 1/3 of the straight part of the manifold. This is from observing where the sediment lines and dirt build up occurs. I just snapped a picture of a manifold that I pulled of a A6 motor two weeks ago, it has not been cleaned up at all. You can plainly see where the dried out OEM ring on OEM injector was and it even left a black mark. It it is clearly 1/8 of an inch past the taper. I think that my drawing is accurate. Radial external o-rings are designed to fit into a sleeve not not pressed up against a taper.

That said both methods work! Bigger better rings without hats or green rings with hats.

[julex]

I felt the orientation I had them was good and I think most people agree the way I had them is correct and 90 degrees to the rail is incorrect.

That's your opinion based on... ignorance.

These particular injectors have a split cone spray pattern that must be aligned along the intake ports line. They also have a 14 degree bend. If you orient them in any other way than 90 degrees to the rails, facing outwards, you will be mis-aligning the spray cones to intake valves and some of the spray will hit the runner walls.

Worst case scenario would be connectors parallel to rails but that's hard to achieve due to clip style adapters so most people end up with something like 45 degrees angle. IF these had ev1 connectors, people would inevitably end up with that parallel set up on some injectors and then we would start hearing about idle misfires etc.

The fact is that these are very forgiving but helping them along by doing proper install (just ensuring that they are clocked properly) will improve mixture preparation an thus will improve fuel economy, prevent some knocking, etc.

[airjawed]

That's your opinion based on... ignorance.

These particular injectors have a split cone spray pattern that must be aligned along the intake ports line. They also have a 14 degree bend. If you orient them in any other way than 90 degrees to the rails, facing outwards, you will be mis-aligning the spray cones to intake valves and some of the spray will hit the runner walls.

Worst case scenario would be connectors parallel to rails but that's hard to achieve due to clip style adapters so most people end up with something like 45 degrees angle. IF these had ev1 connectors, people would inevitably end up with that parallel set up on some injectors and then we would start hearing about idle misfires etc.

The fact is that these are very forgiving but helping them along by doing proper install (just ensuring that they are clocked properly) will improve mixture preparation an thus will improve fuel economy, prevent some knocking, etc.

Julex is correct. I initially had mine with connector in line with rail which was wrong. But, it was what I saw on the internet. Then Julex explained the spray pattern and I also then saw a spec sheet somewhere and saw how they are placed on the GT 500(car it is made for) which all indicated that connector 90 to the rail facing out is the correct way.

For those that want some kind of real world.... my idle got smoother and my power off idle was better.