Neuspeed power module? yes/no?

[ModdedEuros]

The 335i N54/N55 guys are all about piggybacks (jb4). I think even Dinan released a piggyback because they couldn't break the N55 encryption.

Yea we have a lot of guys who have owned or own BMW's and also own Audi/VW's that are buying modules up left and right as they are use to it over on that platform

[reyoasian]

To each their own I guess. Personally not a fan of piggybacks but not a hater either. It's just an "easy way out". At the end of the day, engine will run richer...which is still far safer than running lean..even though it's probably too rich for the application.

[Hspecialist]

Im gonna buy one, can't argue results and cost, plus I can easily remove when I take in for prepaid service plan. Modded euros saves me $50 on price too! Thanks Mod euro!!! I will need a flat panel performance filter non oiled/k&n type. Minimum 3hr drive for nearest tuner/dealer for flashing, fwiw.

[ModdedEuros]

Im gonna buy one, can't argue results and cost, plus I can easily remove when I take in for prepaid service plan. Modded euros saves me $50 on price too! Thanks Mod euro!!! I will need a flat panel performance filter non oiled/k&n type. Minimum 3hr drive for nearest tuner/dealer for flashing, fwiw.

[S3Danny]

Understand and don't expect everyone to want to do various mods. If everyone did the same thing, everyone would drive the same car.

Just was curious what specific hardware of the car you are referring to that is/are going to have direct harm from this vs that would not be stressed under an ECU flash.

None the less its been tested and runs on bunch of cars. Including one of our daily driven S3's which we just dyno'd.




Side note - When you sell the RX7? Whatcha end up doing to it? LS swap? Or go the big single route?

Also understood but if this was a viable way of doing things, then companies wouldn't waste their R&D dollars on doing flashes. I'd like to see the AFR and timing logs from that dyno pull, it will be clear where the shortfalls/dangers of this sort of "tuning" (I really dislike even using that word to describe this device) are.

Both of my FC TII's were small turbo upgrades, nothing crazy. Last time I owned one was 6 years sgo. Then I found that Mustangs were a much easier and cheaper way to go fast. :)

[ModdedEuros]

Also understood but if this was a viable way of doing things, then companies wouldn't waste their R&D dollars on doing flashes. I'd like to see the AFR and timing logs from that dyno pull, it will be clear where the shortfalls/dangers of this sort of "tuning" (I really dislike even using that word to describe this device) are.

Both of my FC TII's were small turbo upgrades, nothing crazy. Last time I owned one was 6 years sgo. Then I found that Mustangs were a much easier and cheaper way to go fast. :)

A lot of companies do go this route actually. Its all over the BMW market right now if you poke around over there.

We have it on our to do list. We should be back at the dyno in about a week with more parts. Will put down more power but still will get the logs you are looking for.

Ahh small turbos. What did you tune/log with on yours? Very familiar with Mustangs myself actually. Use to work for the largest aftermarket retailer in the space, AmericanMuscle.com

[S3Danny]

A lot of companies do go this route actually. Its all over the BMW market right now if you poke around over there.

We have it on our to do list. We should be back at the dyno in about a week with more parts. Will put down more power but still will get the logs you are looking for.

Ahh small turbos. What did you tune/log with on yours? Very familiar with Mustangs myself actually. Use to work for the largest aftermarket retailer in the space, AmericanMuscle.com

Yes, and the Jucie Box is a bit more of a complete solution than something that just intercepts and changes a MAP signal.

I had an Rtek ECU in my FC's. After those I had an '03 Cobra with a single 70, then after that had a '10 GT500 with Hellion's compound kit using the stock blower and twin 61's.

[HurrayFive]

These things are actually fairly harmless, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding floating around on how these actually work - at it's core, this is no different than what the early 90's DSM and other turbo guys did to add a little extra boost, except they did it with the addition of a manual boost controller (because back then the ECU did not control boost), a wide-band o2 sensor (now standard on pretty much every car made since '05-ish), and something like an SAFC to adjust air/fuel timing based off the readings from the wide-band. This solution is no different except all of those systems are built into the ECU now.

All the Neuspeed box does (and what similar piggyback systems do) is use a series of semi-complex resistors tailored to the specific application (IE, not one-size-fits-all, there are several factors that need to be taken into account for each vehicle) that apply resistance to the voltage of the MAF and boost sensor circuits to adjust their output to the ECU. It would appear that many people seem to think that this somehow negates built-in safety measures in the cars ECU, and that's not at all the case.

All these sensors do is measure a voltage output and the negative or positive change in that voltage tells the ECU how much air the car is flowing as well as the manifold absolute pressure ratio (boost). The piggyback system uses the resistors in-line with these circuits to send lowered readings to the ECU - stock, the 8V S3 puts out about 17PSI at sea-level; in the case of the Neuspeed box on 91 octane mode, these resistors make the sensors appear to only be seeing around 12PSI of boost and total airflow, which causes the car to think it's under-boosting, so it raises desired manifold pressure to compensate by 5PSI (so now the turbo is putting out 22PSI). At no time, does this disable or cause the cars built-in over-boost protection to stop working, if the car's wastegate actuator were to fail or something of that nature, and the air flow and manifold pressure exceeded 22PSI, (17PSI to the ECU because of the resistance built into the circuit), the car would still throw an over-boost code and go into limp mode.

On top of that, the built-in pre-cat wide-band o2 sensors in these cars are reading the exhaust gas mixture anywhere from 10-30 times per second depending on engine load, and the ECU solely uses that sensor to adjust the air, fuel, and timing of the vehicle in real time. In your head, you would think, well isn't that going to make things jerky? Airflow sensors in the front of the car saying one thing and the wide-band saying another? No, because once the car goes into closed-loop mode (after warm up to operating temp), it ignores the signals from the MAF when adjusting fueling and relies solely on the output of the wide-band sensor. That sensor is reading the spent exhaust gas of a car making 22PSI, and the ECU adjusts air/fuel to compensate for that load. This happens faster than you can blink an eyelash.

Is it as complete a solution as a re-flash ECU tune? Absolutely not. But it's not necessarily unsafe either, it's a simple solution to get the car to increase output, and, based on the built in wide-band o2 sensor, allow the ECU to control compensating for that output without requiring a tune. But that's just my 2 cents, and I'm only a software engineer whom likes to dabble in electronic circuits and has a background in mechanics, so take that as you will.

[S3Danny]

Don't misunderstand - I fully comprehend what the box is and does, I have been playing this game for a very long time. It's a bullshit "solution" that has no place on a $50,000 car, or on any car that you care to have a properly operating engine management system for that matter. The proper way to modify ECU outputs is to change the way the ECU handles the inputs, not falsify the inputs.

[HurrayFive]

Don't misunderstand - I fully comprehend what the box is and does, I have been playing this game for a very long time. It's a bullshit "solution" that has no place on a $50,000 car, or on any car that you care to have a properly operating engine management system for that matter. The proper way to modify ECU outputs is to change the way the ECU handles the inputs, not falsify the inputs.

Totally get your point, and it's valid, a piggy-back is not a replacement for a custom re-flash of the ECU, they do completely different things in completely different ways. That said, what this box does, is fairly harmless. Adding resistance to a circuit is a pretty fool-proof thing to do as you are not introducing any new electrical load on the system and the resistance is isolated to the circuits you are modifying - worst case scenario, this box completely fails on you, the resistance is removed and the car functions otherwise as it did before the box was installed.

The cars advanced engine management system is actually what makes a device like this so easy to implement, the wide-band means the car will self-adjust to the increased output with fairly little fuss, and no other modifications are necessary.

I would also never debate someone that something like this is a tried and true replacement for a complete re-flash; we all know a (properly done) tune is going to adjust damn near every table and variable for the sake of performance while maintaining some form of a safety margin - and it's usually a better bang for your buck.

The point was more, objectively speaking, for what this device is, it is not inherently unsafe, nor does it have any effect on the rest of the cars engine management system or built-in safety features, and how it accomplishes its end is pretty straight-forward. It's added power in a reasonably safe package that's easy to add/remove. To each their own!

[S3Danny]

I agree to some extent. The fueling and timing tables that were set for the air volume and air temperatures at 17 pounds of boost, while they may be "safe enough" for 22 pounds, are certainly not ideal. Not something I'd want on my brand new car.

People will choose to buy and sell these devices and that's fine, I just don't think it has any place on a car like this.

[onerazorsharp]

I agree to some extent. The fueling and timing tables that were set for the air volume and air temperatures at 17 pounds of boost, while they may be "safe enough" for 22 pounds, are certainly not ideal. Not something I'd want on my brand new car.

People will choose to buy and sell these devices and that's fine, I just don't think it has any place on a car like this.

You're definitely passionate about this topic, and it's not entirely misplaced. But as a fellow developer, Hurray's point is sound - especially since the intention was to clarify the misconceptions of the tuning box. To your point, you must consider the objectives of this vehicle's general ownership to claim this is not an applicable solution - applicable to comprehensive maybe? That's where I couldn't agree more.

An off-the-shelf solution is safer than manipulating data elements. However, a custom tune (especially where modification have been made) is far safer. Then there's the subject of testing & application environment. Some individuals support the use of a dyno, where others argue IAT's and subsequent tables are not as accurate as road tuning. But then there's safety. There are just so many arguments that can be made.

Where's a happy medium? A solid off-the-shelf tune from a reputable tuner, something I'd love to have on my S3. (Good news from APR today by the way). However, these solutions does not fit my objectives - the most important being avoiding TD1.

Unfortunately, the market demands are shifting because of this.

[S3Danny]

You're definitely passionate about this topic, and it's not entirely misplaced. But as a fellow developer, Hurray's point is sound - especially since the intention was to clarify the misconceptions of the tuning box. To your point, you must consider the objectives of this vehicle's general ownership to claim this is not an applicable solution - applicable to comprehensive maybe? That's where I couldn't agree more.

An off-the-shelf solution is safer than manipulating data elements. However, a custom tune (especially where modification have been made) is far safer. Then there's the subject of testing & application environment. Some individuals support the use of a dyno, where others argue IAT's and subsequent tables are not as accurate as road tuning. But then there's safety. There are just so many arguments that can be made.

Where's a happy medium? A solid off-the-shelf tune from a reputable tuner, something I'd love to have on my S3. (Good news from APR today by the way). However, these solutions does not fit my objectives - the most important being avoiding TD1.

Unfortunately, the market demands are shifting because of this.

Yes... everyone will have their own opinion. Obviously I have made mine known. :)

Modding a car is a pay-to-play game, TD1 just up's the cost of it. In my mind if you don't want to be flagged, don't mod the car. I've never been one for warranty work, though.....

[Spoonie]

No

[onerazorsharp]

Yes... everyone will have their own opinion. Obviously I have made mine known. :)

Modding a car is a pay-to-play game, TD1 just up's the cost of it. In my mind if you don't want to be flagged, don't mod the car. I've never been one for warranty work, though.....

I know what you mean, don't even get me started on service and warranty. I'm a DIY guy.

For me, it's more about the concept of the scarlet letter. Though I don't intend to sell my car before I've even owned it, I don't want to lose 4k or more because of TD1. We already had a tech accidentally TD1 a sales employee's APR S4 when he was in for a brake issue. Its the lowest common denominator that causes it and there's no getting it back.

No

Yes?...

[AwdOwns]

Any update on anyone using this? Interested in feedback

Have had one installed on my S3 for a week or so now. Install was very easy,very noticeable gain in power and best of all no worrying about throwing a TD1.

ModdedEuros dyno'd their S3 with the Neuspeed power module before and after install. Saw a gain of 37whp and 38wtq on their AWD Dynojet. Not bad at all for roughly $350. Especially considering the unit can be sold if you move onto something else in the future.

I do plan on running UM's Ecu and Dsg software once released but am more than happy with the power module for the time being. Hope that helps.

[ModdedEuros]

Have had one installed on my S3 for a week or so now. Install was very easy,very noticeable gain in power and best of all no worrying about throwing a TD1.

ModdedEuros dyno'd their S3 with the Neuspeed power module before and after install. Saw a gain of 37whp and 38wtq on their AWD Dynojet. Not bad at all for roughly $350. Especially considering the unit can be sold if you move onto something else in the future.

I do plan on running UM's Ecu and Dsg software once released but am more than happy with the power module for the time being. Hope that helps.

Also did a 0-60 recently which we posted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06V5wLUFccc

We will be back at the dyno maybe this week with some other mods we are testing. See what the car can do.

[Spoonie]

I know what you mean, don't even get me started on service and warranty. I'm a DIY guy.

For me, it's more about the concept of the scarlet letter. Though I don't intend to sell my car before I've even owned it, I don't want to lose 4k or more because of TD1. We already had a tech accidentally TD1 a sales employee's APR S4 when he was in for a brake issue. Its the lowest common denominator that causes it and there's no getting it back.

Audi cannot void an entire car warranty over a single component. I think its called the Magnusen-Moss act. Its like voiding an engine warranty because someone changed the stereo. They cant do that.

Yes?...

I was only answering " Neuspeed power module? yes/no?"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuso...s_Warranty_Act

[bhvrdr]

Audi cannot void an entire car warranty over a single component. I think its called the Magnusen-Moss act. Its like voiding an engine warranty because someone changed the stereo. They cant do that.


I was only answering " Neuspeed power module? yes/no?"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuso...s_Warranty_Act

I sure wish Audi was that simple to work with. Nobody is saying they won't cover your radio. But really who cares about the radio when you pop your engine or DSG tranny?

And in reality AoA and individual dealerships can do anything they want. They have proven it time and time again. Sure you can take them to court and spend a few grand on fancy lawyers (they have their own fancy ones on staff) and maybe some more on some fancy engineers and mechanics to support your case (audi's engineers designed and built the car and are already on the time clock, no skin off their back) and see how far that gets you trying to explain how a tune that exceeds OEM power output and design parameters but upwards of 50hp or more doesnt cause added stress to powertrain, drivetrain, suspension, and braking components.

The M-M act isnt worth the paper it was written on when talking about aftermarket performance parts that are designed to run the car outside of OEM specs.

BTW, to the original poster, please post some results and logs of it if you get it. I would be all over this if they make one for the S4.

Mike

[onerazorsharp]

Audi cannot void an entire car warranty over a single component. I think its called the Magnusen-Moss act. Its like voiding an engine warranty because someone changed the stereo. They cant do that.


I was only answering " Neuspeed power module? yes/no?"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuso...s_Warranty_Act

Hey Spoonie, ya, I was just messing with your single line contribution.

You're completely right on the MM act though! Unfortunately, you might want to look at some of the TD1 discussions on the forums - this has been discussed a TON. Sent you a PM by the way to avoid flooding this topic with MM & TD1 talk.

[Spoonie]

Hey Spoonie, ya, I was just messing with your single line contribution.

You're completely right on the MM act though! Unfortunately, you might want to look at some of the TD1 discussions on the forums - this has been discussed a TON. Sent you a PM by the way to avoid flooding this topic with MM & TD1 talk.

Great info on the PM. Thanks :)

[AUDIS3frmEC137]

you will only get flagged for td1 if you don't have your car flashed back to stock before taking to the dealer. Most of the bigger companies can easily flash your car back and then it's on the dealer to prove that you had been tuned. Refer to Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Also it's common sense if you're planning to take your car to the dealer for reasons that are not warranty issues, then modifying your car is not for you.

I felt the need to sign up and correct this statement that could lead the forum users to inappropriately tune their car. At the time of writing this post this statement was still not even close to being true. TD1 is automatically done when the car is plugged into the online diagnoses tools. There is no such thing as making an undetectable ECU tune after 2013. This TD1 is just a flag and not an automatic annulment of your powertrain. However, once you have the flag then you face an uphill battle in proving that the tune did not affect the problem you are having. And the cases in which people lose their warranty based on a TD1 far out weigh those in which the owner's rights were vindicated, and that doesn't even consider the fact that any further problems you have will have to endure the same scrutiny.

Sorry for rehashing a very old post but information like this should not be on the forum without being corrected.